GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #3

[Herat]

Maybe she didn't want to see Taylan often. Mystery is important in romance. Or even in hook ups. Maybe she liked exploring on her own with encounters with Taylan that were only occasional on purpose to heighten their romantic or sexual intrigue.

They would still be able to detect trauma to the vaginal or rectal vault irrespective of condom use after a week. However, if she was indeed raped, Taylan's purported statement that they had sex the evening prior would not rule out a claim of rough sex as contributory. With rape the onous more often lies with the victim to prove the violation rather than the rapist proving innocence.

Yes, it's often more indirect than direct (self-defense injuries, other bruising, handholds, torn hair or clothing)

 

[Herat]

Back to the Amsterdam/Munich bits.

I don't recall any IG friends from Munich.

Cross-checking all the communications for all IG or other internet contacts must be extensive. ie- was there any communication between Ammur and TaylanK? If so, big alarm bells goin' off.

 

[Herat]

One other thing that has bothered me:

Did she not have any IG friends in other architecturally notable places: Paris, London, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, etc etc?

I would have thought other places would have been "easier" places for a newbie traveler and have also provided such exotic and compeling foreign sights and experiences.

I go back to the charm and attractiveness of Turkish men (glamour-boy TaylanK photo) as a factor in the Istanbul choice.

 

[ThinkHard]

I do not need to study anything, I AM a coptic Christian. They are identified as Coptic Othodox, as you would identify the Greek Orthodox Church. The word "Coptic" in and of itself refers to Egyptians. What you are referring to is the "Orthodox" Church itself, the Coptic sect is specifically just Egyptian.

I understand the origin of the word coptic just fine, but the religion did in fact spread beyond the boarders of Egypt, due to roman persecution. Specifically to regions of turkey.

 

[ThinkHard]

My own thought at the moment is that this was not a random attack. However, I've copied an extract from the travel report of a lone female Finnish traveller to Istanbul last year on her visit to Yedikule.

Suddenly the sun was shining and the minarets of Sultanahmet could clearly be seen far away. The city shone and I followed the curve of the city walls into the distance and counted the tankers “hanging around” the Sea of Marmara with a slight turn of the head. While I sat there a man came up to me, clad in a workmen’s attire, those neon yellow clothes. He stood for a while and then approached me, started talking in Turkish. I shook my head and let him know I didn’t understand. He didn’t speak any English so he continued in Turkish, all the while gesturing with his hands, clearly trying to tell me something. Somehow I got the impression he was talking about the Golden Gate, about Topkapi (the gate) and janissaries, alas the storming of the Constantinople.


I got up as to move on and he followed me, explaining something, gesturing towards the Golden Gate and me to follow him. Okay, I thought, let him show me, that’s where I’m heading anyway. We got down from the wall and he lead me into the tower next to the gate, showed me a room with wooden balustrades and illustrated that someone had been hanged right there (that one evil sultan I presumed, can’t remember his name). And then it happened.


I was so perplexed that I didn’t quite get it at first, so he made himself more clear by showing his penis and performing various notes of thrusts. He especially wanted to make sure I wouldn’t have to really bother, just turning around and, well. You know. That was one of the most terrifying experiences I have ever had in my life. My mind went blank and I just ran, ran and ran, out of that tower all the while expecting to feel him grab me from behind and just rape me then and there, in the darkness of the tower. How f’ng stupid had I been for following him into the tower! Stupid, stupid, stupid! But there was something with him working at the place and his manners that just made me trust him for some reason. I got out in the sunshine and out onto a meadow of yellow flowers, away from the wall, the tower, close to the two other tourists touring the site. Shaking, feeling more violated than I had ever before, not knowing how to move, where to look, what to think. Just trying to breathe.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Though this would have been quite far still from where sarai was found. It also doesn't sound like this man, as creepy as he was, had any intention of murdering this tourist.

 

[Munich]

Here's my tough question for everyone:

Why was Steven Sierra told by LE not to discuss people she met in Amsterdam or Munich, nor discuss details of the trip?

Innocent precaution or significant indication and why?

Amsterdam and Munich, except from Ammer's commentary, have been a bit of a black hole. We saw a few images from AMS on her IG. We heard Ammer took her to the airport. The dates have flip flopped... no one knows how long she was in either place. Even Ammer can only account for her up until she presumably got on the flight. Her passport would hold the actual date of arrival to AMS and departure from MUC.

There are clearly some surveillance images that have not been released, except for that scene of her at the Ataturk Airport. Munich airport is one of the best in the world and I am certain they have sophisticated cameras. No images, nothing at all to record her stay except for LE and Steven saying she was here.

I think it's a quiet precaution. I said before that I think Ammer is a Red Herring "friend" if she was in IST partaking in nefarious activity.

I've also said before, but if she wanted to photograph street art Berlin is the place. She had a "friend" in AMS, who looks uncannily like her husband and she had a free place to stay.

My first curiosity when I heard she had been here in Munich was to look at her IG to see where... only there is nothing. No comments from people who seem to be German, no sterile geometrical architecture photos, nothing at all. IG seems to be for immediate sharing, so again, being on this "photo trip of a lifetime" with an ipad / camera phone is extremely odd.

 

[Herat]

Back to smuggling as a motive. It makes the most sense that she would be approached to bring something to the US, or maybe Turkey to Amsterdam, but not Amsterdam/Munich to Turkey.

Antiquities? Seem to be heavy/bulky and easily identified in xraying luggage

Drugs: I know from the scholarly exposition on Locked Up Abroad that most dummies caught seem to be wearing loaves of bread around their waist or in their luggage. Is there some drug stuff that is worth smuggling in tiny amounts?

Nuclear materials: I don't have any idea how much one would need to be useful as a nuclear material mule but I assume it is measured in wheelbarrowloads. Not really very feasible and why would one want to smuggle fissionable material INTO the US?

From personal experience in third-world countries, I have been approache more than once to bring back stuff to the US. Not illegal/contraband stuff, but local hand-made jewelry that I was supposed to sell and send the money back. I can't see that making any sense as a scam and not anything where someone could lose their life over.

Microfilm is so 50's. Military secrets can all be done electronically. What's left- antique lace? I'm just out of ideas for the smuggling aspect.

 

[looking4answers]

I understand the origin of the word coptic just fine, but the religion did in fact spread beyond the boarders of Egypt, due to roman persecution. Specifically to regions of turkey.

Oh I know we have been persecuted more than many other churches, Orthodoxy and Coptic specifically is one of the main churches as derived from the actual apostles. My family can trace direct descendancy to one of the first Coptic popes.

We are persecuted still today by the muslim population in Egypt, they come and burn down our monasteries just because they don't like the monks being there, even though all they do is help the poor in the region. I am fully aware of religious intolerance towards Christians in the area. I am fully aware of middle eastern history, and of the ethno cultural relations, as well as our history with Turkey...oh I know.

We have been pushed out globally because of this, and because of the persecution this is why in 20 years, the Christian/Muslim ratio in Egpyt has gone from 1/4 to less than 1/10. I am sorry to state the obvious, but the fact is Coptic Christians are true descendants of the Egyptians, the muslims came in mostly with the start of the Turkish invasion of the Ottomans. We never used to inter marry and really do not much to this day.

Here for you though, is the history of Christianity in Turkey, as you can see there is no mention of Coptics in Turkey. Maybe ironic for a few reasons. But yes we have Churches all over because we have left Egypt and settled all over the world, perhaps due to persecution or just because we have moved and established families elsewhere, and yes we do inter marry with other Christians, but we are Egyptian, this I am certain of.


-------------------------------

Turkey
------
Christianity has a long history in Anatolia (now part of the Republic of Turkey), which is the birthplace of numerous Christian Apostles and Saints, such as Paul of Tarsus, Timothy, Nicholas of Myra, Polycarp of Smyrna and many others. Two out of the five centers (Patriarchates) of the ancient Pentarchy are in Turkey: Constantinople (Istanbul) and Antioch (Antakya). Antioch was also the place where the followers of Jesus were called "Christians" for the first time in history, as well as being the site of one of the earliest and oldest surviving churches, established by Saint Peter himself. For a thousand years, the Hagia Sophia was the largest church in the world.

The Assyrian and Armenian peoples have an ancient history in south east Anatolia, dating back to 2000 BC and 600 BC respectively, both of these peoples were Christianized between the 1st and 3rd centuries AD. Similarly, the Greeks of western Anatolia and Georgians of the Black Sea region have histories dating from the 20th centuries and 10th centuries BC respectively, and were also Christianized during the first few centuries AD.

These ancient Christian ethnic groups were drastically reduced by Genocide during and after World War I (see Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide and Greek Genocide) at the hands of the Ottoman army and their Kurdish allies.

Today the Christian population of Turkey includes an estimated 45,000 Armenians[2], 35,000 Assyrians, 3,000–4,000 Greek Orthodox[3], and smaller numbers of Bulgarians, Georgians, as well as Turkish and Kurdish Protestants.

 

[Munich]

One other thing that has bothered me:

Did she not have any IG friends in other architecturally notable places: Paris, London, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, etc etc?

I would have thought other places would have been "easier" places for a newbie traveler and have also provided such exotic and compeling foreign sights and experiences.

I go back to the charm and attractiveness of Turkish men (glamour-boy TaylanK photo) as a factor in the Istanbul choice.

I am guessing she didn't go to these places, because she probably didn't have as many flattering fans who lived in them. All of the people she made the effort to meet up with and booked at least two flights to visit (that we know of) have been men with a similar look.

Being on a budget big European cities aren't cheap. That was one of my second thoughts about Munich. It's the most expensive city in Germany and while there is plenty of culture it doesn't have the appeal that Berlin does to someone like her who seems to be appealed by gritty urban art. Munich in winter can be a bit dreary.

My opinion is that it was the perfect storm as to why she came all this way on a modest budget to meet with men and "pursue photography". Her marriage may not have been the happiest, so the flattery and flirtation didn't go unnoticed, she was getting validation for this new found passion, and she wanted something of her own.

Another thing I considered is that while Steven posted all of these tension filled quotes about cheating, using people, and the rest, perhaps she couldn't leave him if she wanted to. Let's not forget she was likely depending on him for support, hence the reason she had to have him wire her money rather than putting it on a credit card or withdrawing money. Sometimes it's not as simple as "just leave" (some reports also stated she had been staying at her parents.)

 

[Herat]

Munich in winter can be a bit dreary.

Any place in Europe can be dreary. Although the starkness and lack of leafcover can make for dramatic photography.

I go back to the "cheapest ticket has a long connection in Munich" bit and I am surprised LE is being so coy about releasing Munich itinerary information.

As you have mentioned, her Munich movements would be well-documented on CCTV.

I get a mental image of her in the Munich airport in a wifi area editing her photos from the I-pad between flights.

And that makes one wonder what exactly was on that I-pad.

 

[english]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

Though this would have been quite far still from where sarai was found. It also doesn't sound like this man, as creepy as he was, had any intention of murdering this tourist.

I got distracted and posted this before I had finished! I didn't mean to imply this man should be a suspect, just to show how easy it is to let your guard down.

On another note, I see the homeless have been defending themselves at a rally in Taksim Square today.

 

[Munich]

Back to smuggling as a motive. It makes the most sense that she would be approached to bring something to the US, or maybe Turkey to Amsterdam, but not Amsterdam/Munich to Turkey.

Antiquities? Seem to be heavy/bulky and easily identified in xraying luggage

Drugs: I know from the scholarly exposition on Locked Up Abroad that most dummies caught seem to be wearing loaves of bread around their waist or in their luggage. Is there some drug stuff that is worth smuggling in tiny amounts?

Nuclear materials: I don't have any idea how much one would need to be useful as a nuclear material mule but I assume it is measured in wheelbarrowloads. Not really very feasible and why would one want to smuggle fissionable material INTO the US?

From personal experience in third-world countries, I have been approache more than once to bring back stuff to the US. Not illegal/contraband stuff, but local hand-made jewelry that I was supposed to sell and send the money back. I can't see that making any sense as a scam and not anything where someone could lose their life over.

Microfilm is so 50's. Military secrets can all be done electronically. What's left- antique lace? I'm just out of ideas for the smuggling aspect.

I suggested that perhaps she was meeting with a contact in IST prior to leaving for NY and taking "a small package" suddenly turned into something bigger.

This isn't uncommon for mules. They sometimes reluctantly agree to taking something and when the time comes that something has morphed into something else or a larger quantity. They feel the time crunch to get out of there, make their flight, etc. and they are being chaperoned all the while to the airport, so it's not as simple as disappearing. It's easy to see how in that scenario a fight could break out.

If she told the AirBnB guy she was single that could be trying to protect her family.

The only thing that doesn't align with this is if she had tried to skirt around trafficking something by having her ticket changed and leaving early she posted it on public IG, which would negate that idea. Leaving 4 days early is just strange, especially considering the amount of money (which she didn't have) to change the ticket.

Here in Munich we've had some crazy things pass through customs, like a suitcase that looks like plastic, but is actually made out of drugs, a hammock or lace table cloth soaked in drugs. It doesn't necessarily have to be strapped sumo style.

I think whomever used such force to beat her knew her. This is pure anger and rage, not "I want your ipad and you're putting up a fight." What kinds of people are capable of this?

 

[CMac2]

Oh I know we have been persecuted more than many other churches, Orthodoxy and Coptic specifically is one of the main churches as derived from the actual apostles. My family can trace direct descendancy to one of the first Coptic popes.

I wonder if we're getting too specific and are running the risk of splitting hairs. What if we look at this case under the umbrella of Christianity- not specifically Coptic/Orthodox/Catholic/Pentacostal. Would a local homeless/drug addict shy away from a religious symbol, such as a cross? I tend to think they wouldn't care one way or another.

Most people do terrible things, not because they're monsters, but because their situations are drastic enough (at least in their own minds) to require it. If a homeless person who struggles to survive every day- and this also includes a drug addict, as they are struggling too- would the presence of a cross around her neck cause them to back off? That piece of jewelry, depending on its value, could have provided a meal for that person- and again, that person likely has no idea where the next meal is going to come from, or if there's even going to be a next meal.

I don't find it likely that the religious symbol was enough to make a homeless druggie (especially one who'd just committed what all religions consider a terrible sin- murder) care enough to leave it intact. Especially again, if could mean the difference between a meal or two or not.

Additionally, Turkey is 99% Muslim, correct? Not that a Muslim in general would have no respect for a symbol of Christianity- I am not saying that at all- but I just don't think the kind of person we're talking about in this case specifically would care at all.

I believe if the motive was robbery, the jewelry would have been taken.

 

[ThinkHard]

Oh I know we have been persecuted more than many other churches, Orthodoxy and Coptic specifically is one of the main churches as derived from the actual apostles. My family can trace direct descendancy to one of the first Coptic popes.

We are persecuted still today by the muslim population in Egypt, they come and burn down our monasteries just because they don't like the monks being there, even though all they do is help the poor in the region. I am fully aware of religious intolerance towards Christians in the area. I am fully aware of middle eastern history, and of the ethno cultural relations, as well as our history with Turkey...oh I know.

We have been pushed out globally because of this, and because of the persecution this is why in 20 years, the Christian/Muslim ratio in Egpyt has gone from 1/4 to less than 1/10. I am sorry to state the obvious, but the fact is Coptic Christians are true descendants of the Egyptians, the muslims came in mostly with the start of the Turkish invasion of the Ottomans. We never used to inter marry and really do not much to this day.

Here for you though, is the history of Christianity in Turkey, as you can see there is no mention of Coptics in Turkey. Maybe ironic for a few reasons. But yes we have Churches all over because we have left Egypt and settled all over the world, perhaps due to persecution or just because we have moved and established families elsewhere, and yes we do inter marry with other Christians, but we are Egyptian, this I am certain of.


-------------------------------

Turkey
------
Christianity has a long history in Anatolia (now part of the Republic of Turkey), which is the birthplace of numerous Christian Apostles and Saints, such as Paul of Tarsus, Timothy, Nicholas of Myra, Polycarp of Smyrna and many others. Two out of the five centers (Patriarchates) of the ancient Pentarchy are in Turkey: Constantinople (Istanbul) and Antioch (Antakya). Antioch was also the place where the followers of Jesus were called "Christians" for the first time in history, as well as being the site of one of the earliest and oldest surviving churches, established by Saint Peter himself. For a thousand years, the Hagia Sophia was the largest church in the world.

The Assyrian and Armenian peoples have an ancient history in south east Anatolia, dating back to 2000 BC and 600 BC respectively, both of these peoples were Christianized between the 1st and 3rd centuries AD. Similarly, the Greeks of western Anatolia and Georgians of the Black Sea region have histories dating from the 20th centuries and 10th centuries BC respectively, and were also Christianized during the first few centuries AD.

These ancient Christian ethnic groups were drastically reduced by Genocide during and after World War I (see Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide and Greek Genocide) at the hands of the Ottoman army and their Kurdish allies.

Today the Christian population of Turkey includes an estimated 45,000 Armenians[2], 35,000 Assyrians, 3,000–4,000 Greek Orthodox[3], and smaller numbers of Bulgarians, Georgians, as well as Turkish and Kurdish Protestants.

Thank you for the further information. There is also historical references to coptic Christians hiding out in Cappadocia, there are even coptic style crosses painted on many churches that were dug into caves in the Cappadocia region of turkey. I was just visiting this region this summer and was surprised to learn much of this myself. It is my understand that even armenian orthodox can trace their original routes to the coptic Christians who fled Egypt during this time.

Cappadocia was a region where early coptic christians carved out houses and beautiful churches out of strange, mushroom shaped rock formations in central turkey.

 

[ThinkHard]

I wonder if we're getting too specific and are running the risk of splitting hairs. What if we look at this case under the umbrella of Christianity- not specifically Coptic/Orthodox/Catholic/Pentacostal. Would a local homeless/drug addict shy away from a religious symbol, such as a cross? I tend to think they wouldn't care one way or another.

Most people do terrible things, not because they're monsters, but because their situations are drastic enough (at least in their own minds) to require it. If a homeless person who struggles to survive every day- and this also includes a drug addict, as they are struggling too- would the presence of a cross around her neck cause them to back off? That piece of jewelry, depending on its value, could have provided a meal for that person- and again, that person likely has no idea where the next meal is going to come from, or if there's even going to be a next meal.

I don't find it likely that the religious symbol was enough to make a homeless druggie (especially one who'd just committed what all religions consider a terrible sin- murder) care enough to leave it intact. Especially again, if could mean the difference between a meal or two or not.

Additionally, Turkey is 99% Muslim, correct? Not that a Muslim in general would have no respect for a symbol of Christianity- I am not saying that at all- but I just don't think the kind of person we're talking about in this case specifically would care at all.

I believe if the motive was robbery, the jewelry would have been taken.

I agree I don't think they would care at all. Additionally yes 99% of Turks are Muslims on PAPER. But the degree to which the celebrate or follow their religion varies greatly. Also if you do not declare your religion as something specifically non Muslim, it is assumed you are Muslim, and this also accounts for the 99% on paper.

 

[Herat]

I think whomever used such force to beat her knew her. This is pure anger and rage, not "I want your ipad and you're putting up a fight." What kinds of people are capable of this?

I think the covering with a blanket is also one of those possible indicators that her assailant knew her and had some type of emotional connection to her. Like he wanted to comfort her and protect her post-mortem. The blanket seems excessive. One could have just as easily covered her face with her pants or the missing jacket.

So I'm going for 90% known assailant/ 10% random

TaylanK is still very much in the mix. As the most prominent known contact.

LE will get one and only one chance to announce to the world the arrest of a perp and they are going 1000+% to make sure it is correct.

 

[CMac2]

I agree I don't think they would care at all. Additionally yes 99% of Turks are Muslims on PAPER. But the degree to which the celebrate or follow their religion varies greatly. Also if you do not declare your religion as something specifically non Muslim, it is assumed you are Muslim, and this also accounts for the 99% on paper.

I can understand that for sure. I was baptized Christian- and my father is a pastor (yeah, I'm one of those Preacher's Kids they warn you about. Probably explains a lot, actually). That said, I haven't been to church since I was 18 years old. I have my own beliefs, which borrow heavily against every other religion out there, but I don't identify as any one specific thing.

The assumption would be made of me, however, that I am Protestant.

 

[CMac2]

I think the covering with a blanket is also one of those possible indicators that her assailant knew her and had some type of emotional connection to her. Like he wanted to comfort her and protect her post-mortem. The blanket seems excessive. One could have just as easily covered her face with her pants or the missing jacket.

Or they could have done it to try to further conceal the body.

I agree with you, however, it is often said that a killer will cover the victim's face if it is someone know to them personally.

 

[ThinkHard]

Or they could have done it to try to further conceal the body.

I agree with you, however, it is often said that a killer will cover the victim's face if it is someone know to them personally.

I agree, I definetly think the killer was known to sarai,

I don't buy the random attack not or a second. But if I'm wrong when the truth comes out I'll totally admitt it.

 

[CMac2]

I agree, I definetly think the killer was known to sarai,

I don't buy the random attack not or a second. But if I'm wrong when the truth comes out I'll totally admitt it.

There are too many things that just don't fit the scenario of a random attack. Like you, if I'm wrong, I'll absolutely admit it, but I am 99.99% sure at this point that SS was killed by someone she knew.