GUILTY Turkey - Sarai Sierra, 33, NY woman murdered, Istanbul, 21 Jan 2013 - #5

[alpmighty]

Another 'dismissive' sounding comment on yet another dead body......
So i'm beginning to think that Turkey is
A) ''really great''
B) A place where if you don't get murdered or drugged you feel suicidal.

You may be missing the point. Investigating a suicide case with established identity of the body is actually not very difficult. Family will be interviewed and any signs of suicidal tendencies will be easy to see as patterns. If there are no patterns of behavior on individual which might make suicide plausible. Every angle will be scrutinized, from the individual's financial records to relations to family and friends.

Unless the act of suicide was witnessed or surveilled, Turkish LE tends to approach apparent suicides with suspicion.

 

[alpmighty]

If Turkish officials had released a photo or footage of Ziya in the first place, then he wouldn't have been able to go to the Syrian border, someone would rat him out. For some reason, I think law enforcement didn't want the public to know they were looking for him. Maybe they were afraid someone would kill him before they could interrogate him?

Since the prevailing state of Syria currently is bordering anarchy, we can't assume border security on their part is up and running. It was stated here before the geography of the Turkish - Syria border. It's rough terrain mostly and there are no persistent walls and fences.

 

[alpmighty]

But this supposed mental issue that would cause such violence, and put him in a psychiatric facility, I believe would also be apparent during his time in military service.

If its true he was jailed for 7 years, starting at 15, that would be he was roughly 22 when he was released and subsuquently due to serve his term in the military.

Most types of illnesses that are severe enough to cause the kind of behavior people want to label Z with, would have been apparent at this age.

It might or might not have been apparent during military service. At the time Ziya would have done service, there were no central medical records and unless the conscript reported his mental illness during pre-enlistment medical exams, doctors involved would not be looking for signs of medical illness, unless it was extremely obvious.

I can't either say with confidence that Ziya's mental issues would be obvious to his conscript buddies during the time of his service. He might have acted odd, but camaraderie would prevent other conscript members of his unit to rat him out, unless of course, if his behavior was extremely unsound.

Since there's knowledge that Ziya was able to hold on a steady job before, I think signs of his mental issues were rather subtle as opposed to obvious. He was able to fit in.

 

[alpmighty]

No Alp, we are not saying the government took her out by disposing of her in the water, we were suggesting in theory that whoever she was collecting info on took her out.

Then perhaps it would be more productive if I can have more elaborations on who red shirt woman might have been collecting intelligence on.

 

[alpmighty]

At least not openly.....but i was not thinking of being assassinated by 'authorities'.
There is still the mafia, organized crime, family feuds etc.

Mafia and organized crime are strictly under FBI jurisdiction. I don't see a reason for FBI to send an undercover operative for an intelligence gathering operation against mafia or organized crime. FBI can simply request TNP assistance and would surely receive their cooperation, which would result in a joint operation. Boots on the ground for such an op would belong to Turkish LE, perhaps advised and supported by FBI agents.

 

[alpmighty]

So they used familial DNA to identify him.

This was the same tool used to nab the Grim Sleeper, who went undetected for a whole decade, until resurfacing again.

He appeared on a TV dating show. Police finally caught up to him in his old age.

We're not sure, if the media reports are accurate they grabbed his hair from a pillow he used during his brief stay in Karabük, where Ziya's family resides in.

Failing that, LE might have simply grabbed DNA from his brother or his mother.

 

[alpmighty]

@alp

I really appreciate all your knowledge, but I think you need to go back a few pages to read the very long two posts I wrote (if you haven't already) , that is what some of this discussion is revolving around.

You keep informing us of things that do,not really apply to the discussion. Though the information is great, and again appreciated. I think you'd benefit us all more to at least be on the same page in terms of frame of reference.

Because you keep reading post and falsely inferring what we are implying or theororizing on, so its kind of confusing when you jump in and say something that isn't really at all what we are saying.

I hope you understand, we value your information. Just please read back a bit, so the information your discussing is actually in relation to the theory we were discussing. Because it seems by what your writing, you haven't read back enough, and are misunderstanding posts and applying your own meaning to them, which is not the one they are intended.

I'm not only responding to the theories I'm seeing here, the information I provide may seem unrelated with that assumption, but actually as a whole, it is intended to provide a crash course for understanding persons and local variables related with the SS case for those who have never been to, or know Turkey.

Mandatory service that every Turkish male citizen is obliged to complete, Turkish social structure, consideration of espionage or organized crime angles, Turkish LE operations and the centralized records of the citizens, why Turkish media mentioned Turkish LE passed information over to CIA regarding Ziya, SS electronics and their criminal resale prospects, areas SS have been to and value of their areas in light of possible angles, how and which United States federal agencies might be involved in investigation are all relevant, wouldn't you agree?

 

[alpmighty]

Most types of illnesses that are severe enough to cause the kind of behavior people want to label Z with, would have been apparent at this age.

May I suggest that having been apparent does not automatically equal to being reported or being documented and/or diagnosed?

 

[SANDOVAL]

Mafia and organized crime are strictly under FBI jurisdiction. I don't see a reason for FBI to send an undercover operative for an intelligence gathering operation against mafia or organized crime. FBI can simply request TNP assistance and would surely receive their cooperation, which would result in a joint operation. Boots on the ground for such an op would belong to Turkish LE, perhaps advised and supported by FBI agents.

Again, the point is not ''official'' connections, but 'somebody done somebody wrong', maybe the woman was the victim because somebody did not 'toe the line', somebody failed to follow orders, somebody wanted to get even.......like that.

 

[ozma]

There were a few articles posted on this thread, I'm not sure how far back they are, but they discuss Z's life, and it specifically discusses that his father died when he was an infant (10 days old I think), that he was enrolled in school at the age of 10, lasted 3 days, and began living on the streets at 11.

And no one said he was living out on the street because he had too, I believe he chose too. But I think the reasons for his choice, as I specified in another post, are not because he was bat **** crazy....at least not violent crazy.

One of these articles would be a [not perfect] translation I posted (#671). According to it (his older brother’s account), Ziya was on the streets from age 11 to age 15; in prison for the next 7 years (therefore until about age 22); then did his military service (assumedly completed at age 23/24); then did casual/temporary work for an unspecified period of time (during which he was also engaged). At some point he lost his job and returned to the streets. Six years ago (which would be at about age 40, right?) he began living on the streets of Istanbul.

I do also remember reading somewhere in this forum the account that Alp is referring to, that talked about Z’s brother renting an apartment in Istanbul for him, but Z leaving it for the streets. Does anyone know where to find it? I’d like to read it again.

 

[Blackydress]

If SS was involved in a government undercover operation, we would not be discussing this case here at all, as her disappearance and murder would not have made headlines with the current circumstances in the first place. We would simply be unaware, or we would hear it as an undercover operative ended up getting killed, and as such, no discussion on websleuths as there'd be no mystery.

By the way, did you ever hear of an undercover intel operative ending up dead making headlines? Unless there is a necessity to disclose any such event, they are covered up. Dagger and cloak. As I said before, there's a wall of stars without names in Langley for the fallen, and that is there, without names, for a reason.

Lastly, would SS family publicly come forward when she first disappeared? There are no covert assets working for governments without the knowledge of their next of kin. Even in cases that such operatives cannot disclose what they do, they use covers such as working for Department of Agriculture. Is there even such a cover in SS case? Not that we're aware of.

If sleuthers seriously would consider SS as an intel asset, then they would do well to consider me as Bruce Wayne and Batman.

I totally agree. Somebody working for the government, would not end by the historical walls also would not stay in a sketchy neighborhood and in a cheap hotel. According to crime experts we watched on TV, if she were an undercover agent, she would just disappear and be never heard from again. I doubt she would be a member of an online community like IG with hundreds of followers. What kind of a cover is that for an agent you know?

 

[Yashim]

I seriously doubt we will ever know much of that day, except that it was Sarai's last.

To experience Istanbul was her first wish in exploring a different culture and it also turned out to be her last. Yet, we couldn't even completely grant that. For me, that irony made her case even sadder.

I wish she had seen "the Mediterranean". She would have loved it. I think it is so her type.

http://img489.imageshack.us/img489/5263/jpbig11od8.jpg

For those of you who don't know: The Mediterranean is a scuplture, by Turkish sculptor Ilhan Koman, personifying the Mediterranean Sea in the form of a female body made up of 120 metal strips, which creates an effect of rippling waves.

This feels weird. I was thinking of mentioning the Mediterranean on my final post in the forum.


And I knew that death was an arrow
let fly from an unknown hand
and in the flicker of an eye we die

- Octavio Paz (The Bird)

...

 

[Chewy]

The involvement of the CIA now seems like a contrived excuse to get into Turkey and investigate.

 

[Blackydress]

We're not sure, if the media reports are accurate they grabbed his hair from a pillow he used during his brief stay in Karabük, where Ziya's family resides in.

Failing that, LE might have simply grabbed DNA from his brother or his mother.

The hair bit can also be another example of sensationalism in the press. What Turkish woman would keep the slept on sheets for so long? Normally every house wife washes the sheets the guest slept the day after the guest leaves.

LE took blood from his brother and mother and more responsible newspapers wrote; "there was close resemblance to the DNA found on SS." But they also added that this is not enough to declare someone as the killer.

 

[Chewy]

The hair bit can also be another example of sensationalism in the press. What Turkish woman would keep the slept on sheets for so long? Normally every house wife washes the sheets the guest slept the day after the guest leaves.

LE took blood from his brother and mother and more responsible newspapers wrote; "there was close resemblance to the DNA found on SS." But they also added that this is not enough to declare someone as the killer.

I don't think it's surprising that she hadn't washed the sheets. It was just a few days, maybe she washes the laundry on a specific day.

 

[ozma]

Also to another issue regarding TK that someone raised, "why didn't he meet her." The woman was married and had sex with him. Perhaps he got worried about this coming back and being a problem and so he just wanted to cut ties with her for this reason.

It’s not really correct to say “the woman...had sex with him,” since we don’t know this. Something like “by some accounts is said to have had” would be a better way to state it.

[Personally, I think it would be kinder for all of us to drop discussion of this particular detail. Especially since at this point it seems like TK had only an indirect connection to SS’s death, i.e., by not showing up that day. Just MOO.]

 

[Blackydress]

I personally think that 'criminal elements' thing was tabloid speculation and it has no substance.

If I'm wrong though, it would be hard for an anonymous FBI source to make such a statement. Professionals like 'anonymous FBI sources' rarely make mistakes to reach such conclusions.

I agree. You probably noticed that press does not give any sources. Almost in all articles they say, "according to sources". Which sources? Who, where and when we are never told. How can then anybody take all these articles seriously?
It is like the famous press quote for football in Turkey "according to the conversations behind closed door," or according to the lobby?" Who are these people behind closed doors we never know.
Newspaper reports are not to be taken seriously if they are not telling their sources.

 

[ThinkHard]

It might or might not have been apparent during military service. At the time Ziya would have done service, there were no central medical records and unless the conscript reported his mental illness during pre-enlistment medical exams, doctors involved would not be looking for signs of medical illness, unless it was extremely obvious.

I can't either say with confidence that Ziya's mental issues would be obvious to his conscript buddies during the time of his service. He might have acted odd, but camaraderie would prevent other conscript members of his unit to rat him out, unless of course, if his behavior was extremely unsound.

Since there's knowledge that Ziya was able to hold on a steady job before, I think signs of his mental issues were rather subtle as opposed to obvious. He was able to fit in.

Which to your point makes it doubtful, that his mental issues were of the type to cause such violence.

 

[SANDOVAL]

The endless discussion about the mental health of Z is not serving any purpose IMO.
We do not know if he killed SS.
Whoever did was not in a 'normal state of mind'.
Since it's improbable that the killer acted in self defense against a 5.2, 110 lb woman
one can assume it was a murder.
That is all we know.

 

[Blackydress]

I don't think it's surprising that she hadn't washed the sheets. It was just a few days, maybe she washes the laundry on a specific day.

Of course I wouldn't know her laundry habits. But it seems to me Turkish housewives are always washing laundry and hanging "snow white" laundry they are proud of. I may be wrong of course.