TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[MsArk]

Six Holcombe family members. ETA- just read an article saying there were actually eight from this family.

My heart aches for each and every family touched by this tragedy.

 

[x_files]

Yeah, I was going to say that. When you report it, they don't do anything. Can't do anything. Even if you do get a restraining order they're barely worth the paper they're written on. If reporting it would lead to action, and that/those action(s) would lead to relief for the victim, I wouldn't have had to leave the country. I guess technically I didn't have to leave the country either - I could have sat around and waited until actual harm was done and hope my kids and I would make it out of that alive. No thanks...

It is a serious flaw in the system. There's no help for victims, the system blames the victim.

 

[canadiangirl]

Six Holcombe family members.

My heart aches for each and every family touched by this tragedy.

The Hill children are also part of the Holcombe family they are Crystal's children.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

 

[bluesneakers]

It is a serious flaw in the system. There's no help for victims, the system blames the victim.

Society blames the victim too.

 

[Inthedetails]

Society blames the victim too.

Yep. Victims are blamed when they speak out and victims are blamed when they remain silent.

jmo

 

[faw720]

1) I hope it's OK to post this. In a note to fellow alumni, his father said that he and his wife were planning to leave TX and move to Colorado in the spring. If he was going to lose his parents' (apparently substantial) financial support, I wonder if that also played into his break??

2) Have either his parents or his wife or mother-in-law released a statement? I haven't seen anything confirming their current whereabouts. I hope they weren't also harmed.

I don't expect that we will ever hear anything from his parents. After all the past problems their son had they surely had to know that their son was mentally deranged. I wish we had a Texas lawyer here. Could they possibly be held for criminal charges of accessory before the fact or withholding information from authorities? Or could they face civil liability for not having him committed to a mental institution? JMO, random thoughts rolling through my brain.

 

[Bernina]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/...breaking-news&nlid=58395070&ref=headline&_r=0

[h=1]Video of Texas Church Shooting Shows a Methodical Attack, Official Says[/h]

I don't believe there is any kind of medication that could have fixed this sick individual. Some people just need to be locked up from the rest of the world.

 

[Bernina]

I don't expect that we will ever hear anything from his parents. After all the past problems their son had they surely had to know that their son was mentally deranged. I wish we had a Texas lawyer here. Could they possibly be held for criminal charges of accessory before the fact or withholding information from authorities? Or could they face civil liability for not having him committed to a mental institution? JMO, random thoughts rolling through my brain.

I think this will all fall on the Air Force. He was over 18/21, previous posts that were quoted had classmates saying he changed sometime after high school, and I have yet to see any criminal actions by him before he joined the service. And if those quotes are to be believed, his parents DID have him on meds.

Who knows? His family or wife could hold the AF liable? The AF had ALL the evidence to put him away for a long time, have him put in the prohibited possessor data base, and deem him indefinitely mentally unfit.

 

[x_files]

Yep. Victims are blamed when they speak out and victims are blamed when they remain silent.

jmo

and moms with small children get blamed for staying or leaving, You cannot win and are terrorized either way.

 

[sds71]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5062081/Devin-Kelley-investigated-rape-2013.html
Comal County sheriff's deputies were called to Devin Kelley's home in New Braunfels, Texas in June 2013 to investigate a complaint of rape
The investigation fizzled out after about three months later, when they believed Kelley had left Texas and moved to Colorado
Sheriff's department is conducting a review to see if case was mishandled
The alleged victim's name is redacted from the report
Less than a year after the incident, Kelley married second wife Danielle Shields
Four other women have said Kelley sexually assaulted and harassed


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ley-investigated-rape-2013.html#ixzz4xsTqX0XL
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[sds71]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-surrounding-Texas-church-shooter-s-car.html
The footage was shot by Johnnie Langendorff, who pursued the gunman Sunday
He was flagged down by Stephen Willeford, who shot the killer after massacre
The pair chased gunman Patrick Kelley for 11 miles, until Kelley crashed in a field
Footage shows the police, whom the pair called, surrounding the vehicle
A drone hovers overhead while police creep towards Kelley's car


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Texas-church-shooter-s-car.html#ixzz4xsUHB0sc
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[PrairieWind]

I think this will all fall on the Air Force. He was over 18/21, previous posts that were quoted had classmates saying he changed sometime after high school, and I have yet to see any criminal actions by him before he joined the service. And if those quotes are to be believed, his parents DID have him on meds.

Who knows? His family or wife could hold the AF liable? The AF had ALL the evidence to put him away for a long time, have him put in the prohibited possessor data base, and deem him indefinitely mentally unfit.

Suing the Air Force would be difficult if not impossible due to sovereign immunity. The parents of the shooter are almost certainly barred from any suit. The victims and their families could potentially bring claims under the Federal Tort Claims Act, but that also is real uphill climb. You have to show that the Air Force's actions (or inaction in this case) resulted in the damages.

Can claims be brought by the victims and their families against the shooter's parents? Good question. I am not a Texas attorney, so I can't answer that. A lot will depend on what they knew. I understand he was living on their property, is that correct? Did they know he had firearms? Did they know he was not allowed to possess them? Since the shooter was an adult, it will be a real reach to try to hold his parents liable. That is not to say that it wont be tried.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

Suing the Air Force would be difficult if not impossible due to sovereign immunity. The parents of the shooter are almost certainly barred from any suit. The victims and their families could potentially bring claims under the Federal Tort Claims Act, but that also is real uphill climb. You have to show that the Air Force's actions (or inaction in this case) resulted in the damages.

Can claims be brought by the victims and their families against the shooter's parents? Good question. I am not a Texas attorney, so I can't answer that. A lot will depend on what they knew. I understand he was living on their property, is that correct? Did they know he had firearms? Did they know he was not allowed to possess them? Since the shooter was an adult, it will be a real reach to try to hold his parents liable. That is not to say that it wont be tried.

They can be sued, according to this, which was posted before the shooting.

"Yes, the VA, Army, Navy, or Air Force can be sued in certain circumstances. If you or a family member are the victim of medical negligence or suffered serious personal injuries as a result of the negligence of a federal employee, you may be able to bring a claim against a federal agency... "

https://nationaltriallaw.com/can-sue-va-army-navy-air-force/

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[Bernina]

Suing the Air Force would be difficult if not impossible due to sovereign immunity. The parents of the shooter are almost certainly barred from any suit. The victims and their families could potentially bring claims under the Federal Tort Claims Act, but that also is real uphill climb. You have to show that the Air Force's actions (or inaction in this case) resulted in the damages.

Can claims be brought by the victims and their families against the shooter's parents? Good question. I am not a Texas attorney, so I can't answer that. A lot will depend on what they knew. I understand he was living on their property, is that correct? Yes, separate building though. Did they know he had firearms? Unknown, but they might have because a neighbor said he heard rounds being fired from that property. Did they know he was not allowed to possess them?​ He had NOT been entered into any prohibited possessor data base, Air Force did NOT submit it.Since the shooter was an adult, it will be a real reach to try to hold his parents liable. That is not to say that it wont be tried.

My answers in BLUE.

I would ask why civilians are held to a higher standard (as far as gun laws) than military personnel. Or for that matter, criminal offenses.

If an individual (in Arizona) has a DV charge, an Order of Protection, or an Injunction Against Harassment (which involved a threat of violence/death) ALL weapons are removed from the household. If the individual is convicted, or violates the mandates of either order/injunction, they usually get on the prohibited possessor list.

 

[Bernina]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-surrounding-Texas-church-shooter-s-car.html
The footage was shot by Johnnie Langendorff, who pursued the gunman Sunday
He was flagged down by Stephen Willeford, who shot the killer after massacre
The pair chased gunman Patrick Kelley for 11 miles, until Kelley crashed in a field
Footage shows the police, whom the pair called, surrounding the vehicle
A drone hovers overhead while police creep towards Kelley's car


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Texas-church-shooter-s-car.html#ixzz4xsUHB0sc
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

The end of the article from the first link has a pretty good time line at the bottom, just saying. Tnx, sds71!:tyou:

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

The trouble is that it violates the right to privacy and the right to due process and the Hippa laws. Everyone has rights, and that includes the mentally ill.

But society is “fluid” and laws are simply a reflection of our fluid society. Things have to change and a solution is due.

 

[bluesneakers]

But society is “fluid” and laws are simply a reflection of our fluid society. Things have to change and a solution is due.

People with mental illnesses need to be protected as much or more as anyone. That's one good thing that's come with progress and laws being changed.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

People with mental illnesses need to be protected as much or more as anyone. That's one good thing that's come with progress and laws being changed.

Sure.......no one is suggesting that the mentally ill don’t need protection. Even criminals need protection.

But what do innocent victims need? If someone is out in their front lawn tying bunny rabbits together and shooting guns at the moon.....what happens? Maybe it depends on how much $$$ this person (or family) can afford to pay an attorney to get the crime reduced to a nonsensical obstruction of the peace?

Laws have to be enforced and reported in the appropriate database. They serve a purpose.

If you rape women, punch a dog on the street, smash an infants skull, shoot your guns in the middle of the night, beat both of your wives, make death threats to your bosses, sneak guns into a military base, escape from a mental institution, etc
You are a ticking time bomb and a menace to society.

Innocent people’s rights are being violated to allow this person to freely roam in our society.

It’s the equivalent of throwing a grenade up in the air in a packed crowd and seeing where it lands and saying **oh well**

 

[faw720]

Sure.......no one is suggesting that the mentally ill don’t need protection. Even criminals need protection.

But what do innocent victims need? If someone is out in their front lawn tying bunny rabbits together and shooting guns at the moon.....what happens? Maybe it depends on how much $$$ this person (or family) can afford to pay an attorney to get the crime reduced to a nonsensical obstruction of the peace?

Laws have to be enforced and reported in the appropriate database. They serve a purpose.

If you rape women, punch a dog on the street, smash an infants skull, shoot your guns in the middle of the night, beat both of your wives, make death threats to your bosses, sneak guns into a military base, escape from a mental institution, etc
You are a ticking time bomb and a menace to society.

Innocent people’s rights are being violated to allow this person to freely roam in our society.

It’s the equivalent of throwing a grenade up in the air in a packed crowd and seeing where it lands and saying **oh well**

I couldn't agree more!! Thank you a million times!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bernina]

Sure.......no one is suggesting that the mentally ill don’t need protection. Even criminals need protection.

But what do innocent victims need? If someone is out in their front lawn tying bunny rabbits together and shooting guns at the moon.....what happens? Maybe it depends on how much $$$ this person (or family) can afford to pay an attorney to get the crime reduced to a nonsensical obstruction of the peace?

Laws have to be enforced and reported in the appropriate database. They serve a purpose.

If you rape women, punch a dog on the street, smash an infants skull, shoot your guns in the middle of the night, beat both of your wives, make death threats to your bosses, sneak guns into a military base, escape from a mental institution, etc
You are a ticking time bomb and a menace to society.

Innocent people’s rights are being violated to allow this person to freely roam in our society.

It’s the equivalent of throwing a grenade up in the air in a packed crowd and seeing where it lands and saying **oh well**

I believe he had the kind of mental illness no amount of meds could help, an evil psychopath who was best held in confinement. Sure, the diagnoses haven't been publicized, if that was the case, but he would have continued inflicting his deadly acts on other victims until he was stopped.

If the people/institutions that dropped the ball had any type of conscience, they'd be curled up in a ball sobbing. How can "incompetence" by those in the know justify all of his violence? They could and should have stopped it.

There are LAWS.




No one should be above them. INCLUDING the military. Record EVERY member of the military that has been convicted of a prohibited possessor crime on the National Data Base, recent AND past. Screw the investigations.

Ever gets so angry you can't put your thoughts together? THAT'S where I'm at.......... :gaah: