TX - Active shooter at Allen Shopping Mall, multiple victims, 6 May 2023

[MyBelle]

Mauricio Garcia, 33, maintained a profile on the Russian social networking platform OK.RU, including posts referencing extremist online forums, such as 4chan, and content from white nationalists, including Nick Fuentes, an antisemitic white nationalist provocateur.

In the weeks before the attack, the shooter posted more than two dozen photos of the Allen Premium Outlets mall, where he was killed by an officer after the mass shooting Saturday, and surrounding areas, including several screenshots of Google location information, seemingly monitoring the mall at its busiest times.

Many of his posts referenced his mental health. In his final post, he lamented what his family might say and wrote that no psychologist would have been able to fix him.

In another post, he made disturbing comments about what makes a mass shooting "important" and praised a person who opened fire at a private Christian school in Nashville earlier this year, killing six people, including three children.

The shooter also posted a series of links to other sites, including a YouTube account that featured a video published the day of the shooting. In it he removes a "Scream" mask and says, "Not quite what you were expecting, huh?"

Texas mall shooter ranted against Jews, women and racial minorities on apparent social media page

Mauricio Garcia, 33, maintained a profile on the Russian social networking platform OK.ru, which is part of a law enforcement investigation.

www.nbcnews.com

*I’m not up on the thread yet. Is it known what he had against the mall?

Apparently the shooter was able to buy guns legally. Did he turn around and sell them to a gun cartel? Where did he get his money? So much more to learn.

Electronic receipts posted on the shooter's social media account appear to show he spent more than $3,200 on three types of firearms bought in June through a Dallas gun distributor.

 

[PrairieWind]

Apparently the shooter was able to buy guns legally. Did he turn around and sell them to a gun cartel? Where did he get his money? So much more to learn.

Electronic receipts posted on the shooter's social media account appear to show he spent more than $3,200 on three types of firearms bought in June through a Dallas gun distributor.

Well I certainly haven't seen anything yet that would have disqualified him from purchasing a firearm (in Texas or any other State.)

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

This article says he failed a mental health evaluation which is why he was booted out.

I'm appalled the defense dept. doesn't alert the FBI data base to red flag those who fail mental health evaluations so they can't purchase weapons. smh

May 8, 2023 - Texas outlet mall shooting news

The shooter, who was killed by police, appears to have written approvingly about Nazis while sharing images of his many firearms and posting a photo of the mall on social media in the weeks before the shooting.

www.cnn.com

So, for clarification, there's really no such thing as "failing" a mental health evaluation in general. Mental health evals are done to screen for certain things and organizations can decide on cut-offs. Without knowing exactly what he was given to test for, we have no way of knowing what "failing" meant in this case. For example, in some cases, they're given personality tests. They can screen for things like conflict management, emotional reactivity, rejection sensitivity, etc.

As you can imagine, someone who can't handle conflict or is emotionally reactive or prone to aggressive tendencies may not be a good fit for a career in the military. That doesn't mean they're mentally ill though. It just means they have personality/character traits the military doesn't find to be consistent with success. We don't have enough information to say this individual was mentally ill, IMO.

PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING AS A PREREQUISITE FOR SELECTING MILITARY POLICE | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

Evaluating the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-2-Restructured Form (MMPI-2-RF) over-reporting scales in a military neuropsychology clinic - PubMed

<span><b>Introduction</b>: This study examines the utility of the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-2-Restructured Form (MMPI-2-RF) validity scales to detect invalid responding within a sample of active duty United States Army soldiers referred for neuropsychological...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Cryptic]

BEFORE they released him NOT after. I wonder what he did to be dishonorably discharged!

He might not of been dishonorably discharged.

The military has a third 'catch all' level of discharge- just for people with 'catch all' issues: General discharge.

Those employers "in the know" know that a general discharge means some kind of trouble, but it does not carry the stigma of a dishonorable discharge.

 

[AngTxGal]

Snipped for focus. In the majority of states (I believe 47 or 48, though that may have changed recently), you cannot have someone committed for evaluation unless they are at imminent danger of harming themselves or others. Even if they're psychotic. The law is clear about this. You're allowed to be psychotic, delusional, and angry. As long as you're not at imminent danger, you're not allowed to be taken somewhere against your will.

Source: I'm a physician and can commit people, for eval, admission, and for long-term treatment.

Appreciate your thoughts, and know over 18 is different than younger than 18.
If there is no way to ’get help’ for a person who is mentally unstable, exactly how do they get help If they themselves do not recognize that they have a need?

They have to consent, and willingly go through the process, or be so unstable that they hurt themselves or someone and so the situation and reaction must escalate.

What do other countries do here?
Is the US different in this way, or similar?

JMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

He failed the military mental health exam. To me, failing his kind of screening should lead to further examination to identify people who are at risk of doing something terrible. The time to catch these types of criminals is in high school or when they enter the military or enter college BEFORE something awful happens.

There is absolutely no test or exam that can detect that someone will be violent 15 years later. None. Human behavior is complex. We can't even predict that someone will be violent a month from now. All we can do is contain people who are at imminent risk. Criminality is not mental illness.

Source: I'm a psychiatrist.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

AGREED!
Just setting him back into society when they could have held/involuntarily committed him, infuriates me. If he is too unstable to serve, how is he stable enough to legally own guns and work as a SECURITY OFFICER?! The system is horribly broken. The military needs to step up.

You can't commit someone just because they didn't pass a personality test or even a depression or anxiety screening. If that were the case, half the US would be committed, IMO.

 

[NuttMegg]

This whole discussion just highlights the futility of concentrating on mental healthcare to predict and prevent young men from committing mass murder, and sui cide by cop. Hardly ever a trial, and when there is it turns out like in Florida, no dp because poor mass murderer had a bad childhood.

I wonder if my fellow posters who want to concentrate on mental health/predicting which of the millions of American young men are planning these attacks.......instead of concentrating on the availability of war weapons.....already proven to be doable within the 2 amend....

The question:
We can sort thru databases to find the owners and locations of "white elantra sedans" to help catch a mass murderer who used a rambo knife, but not keep track of weapons of war specifically designed to tear the human body apart?

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Even if found mentally unstable? a danger to others?

His mental health eval was 15 years ago. It took 15 years for him to be a danger to others. And we still don't know that he was mentally unstable. We just know he failed a mental health exam. It could have been a personality questionnaire or a depression screening. We don't know.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Appreciate your thoughts, and know over 18 is different than younger than 18.
If there is no way to ’get help’ for a person who is mentally unstable, exactly how do they get help If they themselves do not recognize that they have a need?

They have to consent, and willingly go through the process, or be so unstable that they hurt themselves or someone and so the situation and reaction must escalate.

What do other countries do here?
Is the US different in this way, or similar?

JMO

I don’t think the US is different in respect to mental health diagnosis and treatment, aside from the cost factor. I also believe that if other countries had easy access to guns we would have plenty of shootings too.

The big difference is the type of weapons available.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I'm a retired pharmacist that used to work at a facility that had a sizable psychiatric department. It's because of its misuse for things like people who were even suspected of being gay, or women who wanted to leave their wealthy abusive husbands, that it can't seem to be done now when it NEEDS to be done.

Yes, that is why it changed, but I'm not sure it needs to be done. Dangerousness (outside of clues of imminent danger) is hard to predict. I think we run the risk of committing people who actually aren't dangerous just because their mind works differently, not to mention it's prone to abuse. There's no way this guy's dangerousness could have been predicted 15 years ago when he was discharged from the military.

 

[Balthazar]

Well, because you don't know what the general mental health issue was. I think sometimes we see mental health issues in the MSM and it's sensationalized to give the impression the person was psychotic or something. There's no evidence of this. What if he simply had ADHD and couldn't do the job? Or OCD? Or what if he had depression that is now much better? IMO, if we say people with any type of mental health struggle should never be in a job that requires weapons, we'd lose a lot of law enforcement officers, FBI agents, security guards, etc. This population is human like the rest of us and IMO, they likely struggle with anxiety, depression, and PTSD just because of what they do.

There's also a thin line between preventing employment in these fields based on mental health issues and the ADA, IMO.

Wait until you see what he posted online and then you will know what kind of problem existed. What is described in this article is only a tiny part of it but will give you an idea of the breadth of his belief system, IMO:

Texas mall shooter ranted against Jews, women and racial minorities on apparent social media page

Mauricio Garcia, 33, maintained a profile on the Russian social networking platform OK.ru, which is part of a law enforcement investigation.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[x_files]

Was he dishonorably discharged.

good point I thought I read Dishonorable but now I am seeing "terminated" and "removed."

"Mauricio Garcia, 33, joined the Army in June 2008 but was “terminated” three months later, failing to complete his initial training, said Heather J. Hagan, an Army spokesperson.

Garcia was separated for an unspecified mental health issue, according to another Army official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of personnel records."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/05/08/texas-mall-shooting/

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Good point.

But... a physician member stated that though as a doctor, she can order somebody into long term treatment, the person must be an "imminent danger". She then related that this is a high standard to meet.

And here it is in TX law:

"In order to approve the application, the
magistrate must find that there is reasonable
cause to believe that the person you are trying to
commit evidences mental illness or evidences a
substantial risk of serious harm to himself or
others. Intervention by the Court is necessary
because the risk of harm will be imminent unless
the person is immediately restrained, and the
necessary restraint cannot be accomplished
without emergency detention."

https://www.texasbar.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Free_Legal_Information2&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=30801

Some version of this appears in most state's laws. It used to be frustrating to me, but I learned during residency that it's done to protect people. I've seen more than one person try to have their spouse or ex erroneously committed to win a child custody suit or have their family member erroneously committed for other nefarious reasons. It can be frustrating, but it's needed, IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

So, for clarification, there's really no such thing as "failing" a mental health evaluation in general. Mental health evals are done to screen for certain things and organizations can decide on cut-offs. Without knowing exactly what he was given to test for, we have no way of knowing what "failing" meant in this case. For example, in some cases, they're given personality tests. They can screen for things like conflict management, emotional reactivity, rejection sensitivity, etc.

As you can imagine, someone who can't handle conflict or is emotionally reactive or prone to aggressive tendencies may not be a good fit for a career in the military. That doesn't mean they're mentally ill though. It just means they have personality/character traits the military doesn't find to be consistent with success. We don't have enough information to say this individual was mentally ill, IMO.

PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING AS A PREREQUISITE FOR SELECTING MILITARY POLICE | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

Evaluating the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-2-Restructured Form (MMPI-2-RF) over-reporting scales in a military neuropsychology clinic - PubMed

<span><b>Introduction</b>: This study examines the utility of the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory-2-Restructured Form (MMPI-2-RF) validity scales to detect invalid responding within a sample of active duty United States Army soldiers referred for neuropsychological...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

He was given the mental health evaluation before he entered basic training. I would like to know why the FBI database wasn't notified so he would be prohibited from working for a security firm and from purchasing weapons.

Posts show mall gunman researched attack, had Nazi tattoos

His posts on a Russian social networking site suggest the 33-year-old had been planning the attack for weeks.

www.wtsp.com

Source: Army booted Texas mall gunman over mental health​

 

[x_files]

THis guy's FB page was a RED FLAG. He pretty much spelled out his intentions and NOT one FB friend reported him to authorities.

Mauricio Garcia, Allen Shooting Suspect: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

Mauricio Garcia is the Allen, Texas, shooting suspect, reports say.

heavy.com

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Appreciate your thoughts, and know over 18 is different than younger than 18.
If there is no way to ’get help’ for a person who is mentally unstable, exactly how do they get help If they themselves do not recognize that they have a need?

They have to consent, and willingly go through the process, or be so unstable that they hurt themselves or someone and so the situation and reaction must escalate.

What do other countries do here?
Is the US different in this way, or similar?

JMO

It's to prevent abuse of the mentally ill. So for example, if someone has schizophrenia and is fully independent and able to live on their own, takes care of their own needs, etc, why should they be forced into a hospital against their will? Contrast that with someone with schizophrenia whose paranoia has kept them from sleeping, eating, or drinking anything for 5 days. That person is at imminent risk of harm due to their mental illness. So we would commit them to help them. The first person is functioning, despite their illness, so why should they lsoe their civil rights?

There's just no way to predict dangerousness. Most people with legitimate mental illness are not dangerous. The people who are dangerous are criminals. But you notice we can't preemptively lock up criminals because they may commit a crime? Likewise, we can't preemptively hospitalize the mentally ill because a small portion of them may someday become violent.

 

[MyBelle]

This whole discussion just highlights the futility of concentrating on mental healthcare to predict and prevent young men from committing mass murder, and sui cide by cop. Hardly ever a trial, and when there is it turns out like in Florida, no dp because poor mass murderer had a bad childhood.

I wonder if my fellow posters who want to concentrate on mental health/predicting which of the millions of American young men are planning these attacks.......instead of concentrating on the availability of war weapons.....already proven to be doable within the 2 amend....

The question:
We can sort thru databases to find the owners and locations of "white elantra sedans" to help catch a mass murderer who used a rambo knife, but not keep track of weapons of war specifically designed to tear the human body apart?

The point of Red Flag laws isn't to force someone to obtain mental health treatment. The entire point is removing guns from their possession and preventing them from purchasing more until they convince a Judge they are mentally stable.

I think the more information we receive about this shooter, we will discover his family and perhaps the security firm where he worked were well aware of his mental instability.

 

[x_files]

You can't commit someone just because they didn't pass a personality test or even a depression or anxiety screening. If that were the case, half the US would be committed, IMO.

Sorry, your response hit my funny bone and it is true.

I'm not aware of how the Army screens for mental health. I did know a young man, 18 who changed his mind and wanted to leave but they REFUSED< he claimed to be suicidal, wanted to kill everyone and was homosexual, and had fantasies of harming the others in his boot camp and they would NOT allow him to be discharged.
I thought it was DIFFICULT to be "removed" from the Army therefore his mental health issues were obviously unstable.

I'm at a loss for what we can do to prevent mass shootings. Besides have armed guards at every entrance of every store, mall, and school with metal detectors.
The 2nd Amendment cannot be changed. People refuse to give up their AR-15s, and Congress refuses to ban AR-15 so we are at a standstill? Now, what? we cannot help those with mental illnesses.

 

[MyBelle]

Sorry, you're response hit my funny bone and it is true.

I'm not aware of how the Army screens for mental health. I did know a young man, 18 who changed his mind and wanted to leave but they REFUSED< he claimed to be suicidal, wanted to kill everyone and was homosexual, and had fantasies of harming the others in his boot camp and they would NOT allow him to be discharged.
I thought it was DIFFICULT to be "removed" from the Army therefore his mental health issues were obviously unstable.

I'm at a loss for what we can do to prevent mass shootings. Besides have armed guards at every entrance of every store, mall, and school with metal detectors.
The 2nd Amendment cannot be changed. People refuse to give up their AR-15s, and Congress refuses to ban AR-15 so we are at a standstill? Now, what? we cannot help those with mental illnesses.

BBM. A good start would be having laws that prevent the mentally unstable from owning or purchasing weapons. What's scary in this case is that the shooter had worked as a security guard. If those firms don't require a mental health evaluation, they should.

JMO