TX - IRS manager killed, 13 hurt in suicide plane crash, Austin, 18 Feb 2010

[mikeysmommom]

This is a very sad story on so many levels, I know that I'm going to get yelled at for saying this but let me say first I do not at all agree with what this guy did, but I do totally understand where he is coming from. CNN has the suicide note posted and this guy made very valid points, actually the exact same points that I have made for years. This was not the rants of a mad man, this was a very intelligent man who was fed up and did something extremely stupid. He had written to his congressman, senator and just about everyone and everyone dismissed him. I know how he feels because I went through the EXACT same thing!!!!!!!!! I even once wrote to the white house and they put my letter on thier website and allowed people to comment, and they never bothered to remove my contact information. I was harrassed, and the other letters I had sent to my congressmen was responded with the cordial "thank you for writing" and never anything further.
There is NEVER a reason for murder and what he did was WRONG!!!!!!!! but what he went through is also wrong and nothing will ever be done about that, because it will never change, The government is NEVER held accountable for their actions, never ever, and what he said about their being two sets of laws one for the rich and the other for the rest of us, is exactly true!

Prayers tonight for those who suffered from this tragedy. Sadly if something isnt done to hold the government accountable. I feel there will be more of this.

I totally agree with you, sad fact is that our government will never be held accountable for the wrong it does to its people and in the future there will most likely be many more people losing it like this man.It is so much easier to just label his letter as the rants of a mad man because most people will buy what the media feeds them instead of using their own minds.He was a very intelligent man who was fed up.

 

[mikeysmommom]

First - if you want to make it appear someone is crazy, call their writings "rambling" and label it a "manifesto".

Personally I find the man's writing very intelligent, cogent, and I can understand his pain. He is not crazy - he is a normal person pushed beyond limits by things he had no control over and after trying to gain control or make change in the conventional and acceptable method, just snapped when he realized it was futile and we are all living the lie.

For all of you who sit and criticize, I BET you've never had dealing of any significance with the IRS. Well, you're lucky; I've seen hard working and honest middle class people literally destroyed.

And he's right about one thing UNDENIABLY - you are locked into obeying a tax code that you and most people in this country will never even understand. Don't you find that criminal? The whole income tax idea is not what our founding fathers had imagined for our freedom and certainly not the "seize and freeze and find out later" ability of the IRS to presume guilt first when our society is about presumed innocence.

When people are pushed to a point of frustration that NO ONE WILL LISTEN and their voice in our supposedly free republic is not heard and no one give a ****, then this happens. It's not right, but I find it more a natural and foreseeable consequence of the corrupted and broken system we have allowed our representatives to create and to perpetuate.

These are foreseeable consequences my friends that our governement in its handling of the IRS can and should see - it is their duty to not drive normal hard working people to this disasterous point. Bailing out the big companies and letting the working people break their backs, force them to pay the government who uses their money to bail out the rich companies that are too big to fail. It's BS.

It's not the IRS fault, it's really the people who make these laws and vote on bills they cannot read and understand. The IRS is a body of the government that has to do the dirty work - I get that what he did was wrong, but objectively I understand and SOME liability should be leveled at our system in general and the corruption that we have come to see as "normal" in politics.


Rant off. sort of...

Having said that, I'm sorry people or person died. This poor guy died in vain as no one will ever look into the big picture and realize how out of control our tax system is and even our court system and family law system and CPS system and realize that unless changes are made, we can and should foresee more people going over the edge. When will our representatives wake up and see there is a causal connection?

Thank you for writing exactly what I wanted to write.I totally agree 100%

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[mikeysmommom]

It's terrorism, especially when you consider that by publishing his manifesto there has to be some intent to incite others. Also seems like there is a lot of self-pity involved. He's not that smart, certainly not enlightened. Some of us have been through much worse than him and haven't turned to random violence which is in reality pointless.

He had no intent to incite others he just was explaining what he was living with and why he could not live with it any longer.Those who have had dealings with IRS,CPS and other government agency already know the HELL they put you through.The system is very flawed and broken and if the government does not look into the corruption of the broken systems that DO NOT work for its people sadly things like this will keep happening.

Most people believe this is a free country equal for all those who are enlightened realize that is total BS.In this country we are only as free as they let us think we are.

 

[BuzzieCat]

First - if you want to make it appear someone is crazy, call their writings "rambling" and label it a "manifesto".

Personally I find the man's writing very intelligent, cogent, and I can understand his pain. He is not crazy - he is a normal person pushed beyond limits by things he had no control over and after trying to gain control or make change in the conventional and acceptable method, just snapped when he realized it was futile and we are all living the lie.

For all of you who sit and criticize, I BET you've never had dealing of any significance with the IRS. Well, you're lucky; I've seen hard working and honest middle class people literally destroyed.

And he's right about one thing UNDENIABLY - you are locked into obeying a tax code that you and most people in this country will never even understand. Don't you find that criminal? The whole income tax idea is not what our founding fathers had imagined for our freedom and certainly not the "seize and freeze and find out later" ability of the IRS to presume guilt first when our society is about presumed innocence.

When people are pushed to a point of frustration that NO ONE WILL LISTEN and their voice in our supposedly free republic is not heard and no one give a ****, then this happens. It's not right, but I find it more a natural and foreseeable consequence of the corrupted and broken system we have allowed our representatives to create and to perpetuate.

These are foreseeable consequences my friends that our governement in its handling of the IRS can and should see - it is their duty to not drive normal hard working people to this disasterous point. Bailing out the big companies and letting the working people break their backs, force them to pay the government who uses their money to bail out the rich companies that are too big to fail. It's BS.

It's not the IRS fault, it's really the people who make these laws and vote on bills they cannot read and understand. The IRS is a body of the government that has to do the dirty work - I get that what he did was wrong, but objectively I understand and SOME liability should be leveled at our system in general and the corruption that we have come to see as "normal" in politics.


Rant off. sort of...

Having said that, I'm sorry people or person died. This poor guy died in vain as no one will ever look into the big picture and realize how out of control our tax system is and even our court system and family law system and CPS system and realize that unless changes are made, we can and should foresee more people going over the edge. When will our representatives wake up and see there is a causal connection?

Whether or not he was a tax cheat, IMO he had some valid points. It is crazy to me to say that because he's a despicable creature for doing what he did. If only he had tried to do something to make real change instead of hurting people.

Seriously, though, I'm not sure what we can do to "fix" this country, if anything. This man was wrong - violence is NOT the answer - but I'm just not sure what is. People say oh, you can make a difference by voting - is that really true? You can only realistically vote from the few choices allotted. So if it's a choice between Obama and McCain and you can't stand either one of them, just what exactly is your vote going to accomplish? Sorry for making this so political; I'm just really teed off and so tired of this country being run by the few elite criminals (IMO that is what they are) in Washington and their business cronies. I would love to fire them all but that's just not possible, yet they will never vote for the interests of their constituents - the vast majority of congress-critters will always be in it for the "You scratch my back I'll scratch yours" aspect. IMO.

 

[Sassygerl]

We drove past this building tonight as we were heading down Mopac. It left a sinking feeling in my gut So sad.

 

[Chili Fries]

He had no intent to incite others he just was explaining what he was living with and why he could not live with it any longer.Those who have had dealings with IRS,CPS and other government agency already know the HELL they put you through.The system is very flawed and broken and if the government does not look into the corruption of the broken systems that DO NOT work for its people sadly things like this will keep happening.

Most people believe this is a free country equal for all those who are enlightened realize that is total BS.In this country we are only as free as they let us think we are.

He did intend to incite others, otherwise he would not have made his manifesto public. He knew very well it would be a big deal after he crashed his plane into the building and he made a point of saying violence is the answer. His intent was terrorism.

Like I said, some of us have been through much worse. I have myself. Sure this country is not perfect but we are as free as any people in the world. And things can be changed without violence. It is easy to argue that the most impactful American of the 20th century was Martin Luther King. He and many others have proved that positive change can be wrought through non-violent means. That's the history of the United States minus the Civil War. There is much to be inspired by in that history.

The problem I see is that a lot of people haven't been involved in politics, they don't understand the long struggle. There was over a hundred years between the prime years of Frederick Douglass and MLK. The point is not to say...I give up, what can I do. The point is to join the struggle, even if you won't see the fruits in your lifetime. There has been a wealth transfer from the middle and lower classes to the upper classes since 1980. That is a well-accepted reality. A lot of us have been very concerned with that fact for a long time.

 

[Texas Mist]

Texas plane may have been loaded with extra fuel
February 19, 2010 10:11 p.m. EST

The man who flew an airplane into a building housing an Internal Revenue Service office may have replaced some of its seats with a drum of fuel to cause maximum damage, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said Friday.

The official, who would not speak on the record because it is an ongoing case, said investigators have determined that the Piper Cherokee PA-28 had several seats removed and that a fuel drum was missing from the airport from which Andrew Joseph "Joe" Stack III took off Thursday morning.

"I think there is a good chance he might have put it on his plane," said the official, who cautioned that investigators were still working that lead and sifting through the crash site.

The single-engine plane has a fuel tank capacity of 38 gallons and is equipped with four seats, according to the Web site risingup.com.

more here

http://us.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/19/texas.plane.crash/index.html


Vernon Hunter's son, who lives in San Antonio, recognized the Echelon 1 bldg on TV yesterday..

http://www.kvue.com/home/Plane-Attack-Victims-son-speaks-84823732.html

 

[kbl8201]

torching houses and crashing planes into building with reckless abondment and no concern for anyone is not a martyr, it's a terrorist...

 

[SuziQ]

Oh please. This is not about the IRS. This guy is the run of the mill loser we see in every one of these cases where an adult can't handle life that 99.9 percent of us have no problem handling. They are always the victim and it's always someone elses fault. It's whatever part of their life they can't control and they just can't stand it. It's their co-workers, it's their boss, their ex-wife, the lawyer who handled the ex-wife's divorce, the judge who agreed with the ex-wife that she shouldn't be married to a narcissistic brat, it's the in-laws who don't want their child married to such an awful person, it's the neighbor who's kids ride their bikes in front of his house he thinks purposely to piss him off and ruin his day, the ex girlfriend, the ex boyfriend, etc etc. These losers all follow the same script.

 

[arielilane]

I clearly can relate to some of his views… however, this self-absorbed nut job grew-up to be a terrorist. It would have been more helpful for him to pay his taxes (I believe he was cheap and didn’t want to pay them) and express his views by taking a more positive constructive approach. No one likes what is going on, and this is NOT the way to handle things!!!

What a coward at that, to attempt to let his family burn in their home, is beyond evil. He definitely was a terrorist with a capital T.

We are fortunate that more did not get hurt.

My sincere condolences to the victim’s family and friends of Mr. Vernon Hunter.

Rest in Peace Mr. Hunter

 

[BuzzieCat]

Yeah, I really can't understand these guys who try to take out their families and/or others. WTH is that about? Why do they do that? It's certainly not going to make anything any better.

 

[sniperacer]

I totally agree with you, sad fact is that our government will never be held accountable for the wrong it does to its people and in the future there will most likely be many more people losing it like this man.It is so much easier to just label his letter as the rants of a mad man because most people will buy what the media feeds them instead of using their own minds.He was a very intelligent man who was fed up.

More folks might have a small problem when the national debt hits "home". As it stands now, every American worker’s share of the national debt is more than $75,000. I don't believe every worker can sell their $100,000 plane to pay their share. IMO, the only question is, how many generations of "sheep" can we raise?

 

[wfgodot]

Victim’s family breaks their silence

“This afternoon, the Travis County Medical Examiner’s office positively identified the remains of the “person unaccounted for” in the aerial attack on the Echelon building, in Austin, TX., on Thursday, February 18th,2010. Regrettably, they are the remains of Mr. Vernon Hunter of Cedar Park, TX. His wife, Valerie Hunter, has lost a devoted, loving and doting partner, friend and spouse. His children, Donald, Ken, and Christine have lost a father who absolutely adored them. He was their constant and loyal friend. Seven grandchildren: Don Jr., Jolene, Lutisia, Sienna, Quinn, Savannah, Athena, and one great grand child, Anastasia, will no longer have the love and affection of a grandfather who lived and breathed for them. The Greater Mt. Zion church family of Austin, TX, under the leadership of Gaylon Clark, is saddened beyond words at the loss of Vern’s presence among us.
...
"We are not the only family in mourning today. Our hearts go out to the wife and family of Andrew Joseph Stack. We are not angry with them because they did not do this. We forgive Joe for his actions which took Vern’s “pound of flesh” with him. Joe had to be in a great deal of pain and distress so… the family and friends of Vernon Hunter, and the entire “Body of Christ” at The Greater Mt. Zion Church, pray for their peace and comfort this day, in the name of Jesus. We are also praying for any and every person whose life has been impacted by this terrible tragedy."

more at:
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/cont...010/02/20/victims_family_breaks_their_si.html

 

[justthinkin]

Exclusive of this Joe Stack incident, one thing is becoming quite clear in my mind. If you have a dissenting voice with those in power you will be labeled an extremist. Join the Tea Party--you are an extremist. Against the war in Iraq-- you were/are a traitor, so said Dick Cheney. In that case traitor equaled left wing extremist. Against the IRS, but in favor of a VAT tax--extremist. Pro God--right wing extremist. Pro abortion--left wing extremist. Support a right to bear arms--whacko gun nut, right wing extremist.

Something is very wrong with this picture. I don't care whether you are a conservative or a liberal, but when someone or some entity is threatening you by calling you an extremist, their intent is to take away your right to free speech. We lose that, and we have all indeed lost our country completely.

Dissenting voices are a vital necessity in keeping any one faction from becoming overbearing, and oppressing others. It is its own system of checks and balances, and no matter where we stand on any issue, we must be cognizant of the necessity for an opposing viewpoint to insure our own liberty to speak up and speak out on that with which we disagree. If not, we are all, truly enslaved.

What Joe Stack did was wrong, but let's not further blacken the man by saying he tried to kill his family when he didn't. They were not at home when he set fire to his house; they were at a hotel. Get your facts straight. Was he a tax cheat? Yes, he was. Was his intent to terrorize the IRS? Yes, it was. Does that automatically make him a terrorist? Only if the IRS isn't a terrorist organization itself. If the IRS is terrorizing over 50% of the population, then, and only then could Joe's actions have even been halfway considered as just. I don't think the IRS is terrorizing 50 % of the population so IMO that makes Joe Stack a common terrorist. Did he make some valid points? Yes, he did, but that doesn't excuse his actions nor do his actions totally negate his valid points. Again, JMO. People are complex.

Is violence ever the appropriate answer to injustice? This is a broad question I'm asking, and not at all related now to this Joe Stack incident. Each person has to answer that for him or herself. I'll answer that by referencing the War of Athens, Tennesse in 1946. Read this, and I think you will see the difference between a Joe Stack, and the GIs of McMinn County, TN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

BTW, the GIs of McMinn county were neither terrorists nor extremists. Joe Stack was both a terrorist and an extremist in the true sense of the word.

 

[SuziQ]

What Joe Stack did was wrong, but let's not further blacken the man by saying he tried to kill his family when he didn't. They were not at home when he set fire to his house; they were at a hotel. Get your facts straight. Was he a tax cheat? Yes, he was. Was his intent to terrorize the IRS? Yes, it was. Does that automatically make him a terrorist? Only if the IRS isn't a terrorist organization itself. If the IRS is terrorizing over 50% of the population, then, and only then could Joe's actions have even been halfway considered as just. I don't think the IRS is terrorizing 50 % of the population so IMO that makes Joe Stack a common terrorist. Did he make some valid points? Yes, he did, but that doesn't excuse his actions nor do his actions totally negate his valid points. Again, JMO. People are complex.

BBM. Thanks for clarifying that. I would hate to walk around thinking of this guy as anything worse than I already do.

I'm hearing alot of "this guy was wrong....BUT....."

IMO, there are no buts about it. There is never a good enough reason to commit the types of crimes that this guy did. This reminds me of the statements people make about women who are raped or beaten. I can't believe or accept that there are people who still say "but...she was dressed the way she was".....but....she was pissing him off..."

This is 2010 not 1810. The laws are what they are. You abide by the law or take lawful actions to change it.

 

[SuziQ]

Victim's son angered by praise for IRS attacker

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/02/21/20100221PlaneCrashVictim0221.html

 

[Marthatex]

This could have been SO, SO MUCH WORSE as far as human life taken. So many things fell into place like the practiced escape route, the fact that the plane hit an area of the building not leased, the Iraq veteran who came by and saved 5 people.

I know they are all still in shock and trying to get over this. The burned man was evidently joking already about "getting back to work". I feel so sad for Vernon's family; he evidently was a wonderful man and community leader. In the paper today, his son said "he would have been GLAD to help out Mr. Stack".

We have a community of great people here, as a rule. It is always shocking when something such as this happens. Our Fire Dept. was running through drills nearby, for emergencies such as this; that evidently helped also.

I think we will find that this man was very angry and had been a long time, since the 80's; didn't like to pay his taxes. He even blamed his accountant, for "defending himself", when in actuality accountants HAVE to be honest and cover their own rear.

He cheated on his taxes, and evidently tried to represent his business as a "church". (this is what I gathered and others have gathered from the "manifesto"). This town has a relatively low unemployment rate and little "mortgage bust". I don't think he was so "down and out", as angry and his recent IRS troubles set him off. I didn't see anything in his writing that showed he ever took responsibility for any of his problems.

Amazing that the Hunters are already forgiving Stack for what he did. Obviously, they have a strong faith.

I am so VERY proud of this community at this time, and so sad for the loss of life and costly property.

 

[IWannaKnow]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/joe-stacks-daughter-samantha-bell-calls-dad-hero/story?id=9903329

EXCLUSIVE: Texas Suicide Pilot's Daughter Calls Dad a Hero, IRS Plane Attack 'Inappropriate'

The daughter of the man who carried out a suicide plane attack against the IRS in Texas said she considered her father a hero for standing up to "the system" but said the attack that killed a government worker and injured 12 was "inappropriate" and "wrong."

Joe Stack's daughter says father's act was "inappropriate" but understandable.

More Photos"His last actions, the suicide, the catastrophe that caused injuries and death, that was wrong," Samantha Bell, Stack's daughter from his first marriage, told "Good Morning America" in a morning television exclusive telephone interview that aired today. "But if nobody comes out and speaks up on behalf of injustice, then nothing will ever be accomplished. But I do not agree with his last action with what he did. But I do agree about the government."

When "Good Morning America" asked if she considered her father a "hero," Bell, 38, said, "Yes, because now maybe people will listen."
*******************************************************
Video at link

 

[BuzzieCat]

No, no, no! People won't "listen," nor should they, when someone does something like this! If he had worked legitimately to change the system, THAT'S what people should/would have listened to. Aw, man. Why do people think that running a plane into a building makes their point for them?

I'm confused about his setting his house on fire. Some reports said the family was inside and had to be rescued, others said they were not home.

 

[reportertype]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/joe-stacks-daughter-samantha-bell-calls-dad-hero/story?id=9903329

EXCLUSIVE: Texas Suicide Pilot's Daughter Calls Dad a Hero, IRS Plane Attack 'Inappropriate'

The daughter of the man who carried out a suicide plane attack against the IRS in Texas said she considered her father a hero for standing up to "the system" but said the attack that killed a government worker and injured 12 was "inappropriate" and "wrong."

Joe Stack's daughter says father's act was "inappropriate" but understandable.

More Photos"His last actions, the suicide, the catastrophe that caused injuries and death, that was wrong," Samantha Bell, Stack's daughter from his first marriage, told "Good Morning America" in a morning television exclusive telephone interview that aired today. "But if nobody comes out and speaks up on behalf of injustice, then nothing will ever be accomplished. But I do not agree with his last action with what he did. But I do agree about the government."

When "Good Morning America" asked if she considered her father a "hero," Bell, 38, said, "Yes, because now maybe people will listen."
*******************************************************
Video at link

I guess self-entitled crazy runs in the family.