TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #7

[Brightchaser47]

I'm not sure about that because we don't really have all that accurate of a timeline. It's my understanding that LE wouldn't do anything until the mall closed.

True, but still....what did he do with all that time, and his wife MIA?

 

[beubeubeu]

DA's MP report for her sister states that she allegedly saw her last at about 12:30 p.m., at the house on Minot.

Yet another, no idea how likely possibility is that - since that report was filed by phone - she wasn't actually asked about the specific time when she last saw Rachel but answered a question like:
"- has it been more than 12 hours since you last seen her?
- yes
- okay (so I'll type 12:30 PM since it's 1:30 AM now)"

I'd think about it as pretty big stretch cause basically no reason to give DA that much credit... BUT Rachel's name is mispelled in that report.
It wouldn't be the first time for FWPD to not bother with getting victims names correctly, but it's also same exact mistake that is all over DJ's notes. For him it's also "Rachael" not "Rachel".
Does that mean anything or nothing, I have no idea.

But worth pointing out IMO that it looks like this:

	Reported by:	Via:	At:	As last seen at:	Where?
Rachel	Debra	Phone	1:30 AM	12:30 PM	Home (Minot)
Renee	Mom	Phone	1:30 AM	Noon	Near home (Gordon)
Julie	Mom	In person	1:30 AM	Noon	Home

So... according to these reports:
a) all three reports were filed at the exact same time, at 1:30 AM,
b) two of which were filed by the same exact officer, who allegedly spoke with Debra via phone and Julie's mom personally at the same time,
c) they were last seen at noon, Rachel even later
How this adds up with their confident, confirmed sighting from the Army Navy that allegedly took place before noon, around 11:30 PM?

Was Julie not seen with them there cause it was actually BEFORE she joined them?

I don't know what to think about this even, but it shouldn't be put solely on Debra being so off with her timing and lying.
And even IF we assume that Debra was telling truth only in that report and only there was accurate, that story allegedly from Shawna about picking up Shawn from Minot and seeing all girls there LEAVING with Shawn makes even less sense cause how?

Rachel left home, went to pick up Renee, Terry refused, other two girls were planning to do something before heading to the mall, so... Renee and Rachel left to pick up stuff at Army Navy while Julie called her mom, so then they came back to Gordon to check if Julie can go, took her, then hurried to Minot, where they took Shawn and were going to take him somewhere, met Shawna, got in, chatted with her for a bit, then put some coats and jackets on... and stayed inside, while she got out, put her son's stuff in the car, put him in the car and was able to drive away still not seeing them getting outside - yet still planning to go shopping at the mall on the busiest day in the year, having much less than three hours to do so (cause time to get there, find parking spot, do shopping, get out and drive back to be at Renee's grandma's house before 4:00 PM when her parents were supposed to pick her up)?
Not likely.

TT's story is that he put in a full day at the shop with CA. Although we know that didn't happen

Do we? I don't think that we do.
Fran was seen and allegedly their car was seen.
If it's true that whitness who saw Fran around noon on that day was also a mother or related to the girl who was supposed to go on that trip with Rachel and Renee, that whitness could be involved in the scheme.
Even without that she could be, but much more likely with it (IMO).

By "involved" I don't even mean like with any ill will on her part. It was known that she will have that party then, in advance. Yet another wild theory but maybe she was meant to be their alibi? Maybe that offer of help was to make sure that she will see Fran there, notice the car, chat a bit and learn that Cotton is absolutely bedridden and 100% home?

TT's story is that he put in a full day at the shop with CA. Although we know that didn't happen, this would imply he didn't see his wife after 7:30 a.m. Then when he's contacted at the bowling alley that evening (the part of his alibi that sticks) and told she's MIA (and  other families are worried), his response is that he'll come check it out after he's done bowling. Wow.

I'm not trying to tear apart your post, just those details... with so much unknown basically everything could be not what it appears to be.

They had a fight before, he may be angry about her going. Not Im-going-to-kill-her-and-every-child-in-sight level of angry.
Angry as any other guy could be.

If he was called and notified by completely horrified Debra (or Fran, or Cotton, or whoever) that:
"OH MY GOD, RACHEL IS MISSING, SHE TOOK RENEE AND THAT LITTLE GIRL WITH HER, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO THE MALL AND BE RIGHT BACK, PROMISED TO BE BACK BEFORE 4:00 PM BUT THEY'RE NOT BACK, THE OTHER FAMILIES ARE FREAKING OUT, YOU HAVE TO COME BACK AND HELP SEARCHING, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!"
and he just casually continued with his bowling match, cause that was his priority...
This mental picture leaves quite an impression, and in the past I used to express my anger and frustration over this outrageous behaviour.

But was it like that? Could as well be something like:
"Hi Tommy. Rachel went shopping with few girls and they should be back already, but they're running late. Their parents are worried. When you'll be back? I'll call you again if I'll learn anything new."
No need for psychopath to think that they underestimated the crowds, lost track of time or that Rachel may be intentionally not in a rush to be back home cause of the fight and that it's nothing serious, since mall was still open and full of people.

 

[beubeubeu]

Who all knew he was bowling? And how did they know? His story was that he came home from work, got a shower, and DA dropped him at the bowling alley. His work alibi doesn't check out, DA swears she didn't leave the house, and we don't have a clear answer (yet), as to how he  got to the bowling alley.

It was Brazilian bloggers version of his story, not actually his story - cause there is nothing but their claim that they discussed the case with him and that was what he told them.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Yet another, no idea how likely possibility is that - since that report was filed by phone - she wasn't actually asked about the specific time when she last saw Rachel but answered a question like:
"- has it been more than 12 hours since you last seen her?
- yes
- okay (so I'll type 12:30 PM since it's 1:30 AM now)"

I'd think about it as pretty big stretch cause basically no reason to give DA that much credit... BUT Rachel's name is mispelled in that report.
It wouldn't be the first time for FWPD to not bother with getting victims names correctly, but it's also same exact mistake that is all over DJ's notes. For him it's also "Rachael" not "Rachel".
Does that mean anything or nothing, I have no idea.

But worth pointing out IMO that it looks like this:

	Reported by:	Via:	At:	As last seen at:	Where?
Rachel	Debra	Phone	1:30 AM	12:30 PM	Home (Minot)
Renee	Mom	Phone	1:30 AM	Noon	Near home (Gordon)
Julie	Mom	In person	1:30 AM	Noon	Home

So... according to these reports:
a) all three reports were filed at the exact same time, at 1:30 AM,
b) two of which were filed by the same exact officer, who allegedly spoke with Debra via phone and Julie's mom personally at the same time,
c) they were last seen at noon, Rachel even later
How this adds up with their confident, confirmed sighting from the Army Navy that allegedly took place before noon, around 11:30 PM?

Was Julie not seen with them there cause it was actually BEFORE she joined them?

I don't know what to think about this even, but it shouldn't be put solely on Debra being so off with her timing and lying.
And even IF we assume that Debra was telling truth only in that report and only there was accurate, that story allegedly from Shawna about picking up Shawn from Minot and seeing all girls there LEAVING with Shawn makes even less sense cause how?

Rachel left home, went to pick up Renee, Terry refused, other two girls were planning to do something before heading to the mall, so... Renee and Rachel left to pick up stuff at Army Navy while Julie called her mom, so then they came back to Gordon to check if Julie can go, took her, then hurried to Minot, where they took Shawn and were going to take him somewhere, met Shawna, got in, chatted with her for a bit, then put some coats and jackets on... and stayed inside, while she got out, put her son's stuff in the car, put him in the car and was able to drive away still not seeing them getting outside - yet still planning to go shopping at the mall on the busiest day in the year, having much less than three hours to do so (cause time to get there, find parking spot, do shopping, get out and drive back to be at Renee's grandma's house before 4:00 PM when her parents were supposed to pick her up)?
Not likely.

Do we? I don't think that we do.
Fran was seen and allegedly their car was seen.
If it's true that whitness who saw Fran around noon on that day was also a mother or related to the girl who was supposed to go on that trip with Rachel and Renee, that whitness could be involved in the scheme.
Even without that she could be, but much more likely with it (IMO).

By "involved" I don't even mean like with any ill will on her part. It was known that she will have that party then, in advance. Yet another wild theory but maybe she was meant to be their alibi? Maybe that offer of help was to make sure that she will see Fran there, notice the car, chat a bit and learn that Cotton is absolutely bedridden and 100% home?

I'm not trying to tear apart your post, just those details... with so much unknown basically everything could be not what it appears to be.

They had a fight before, he may be angry about her going. Not Im-going-to-kill-her-and-every-child-in-sight level of angry.
Angry as any other guy could be.

If he was called and notified by completely horrified Debra (or Fran, or Cotton, or whoever) that:
"OH MY GOD, RACHEL IS MISSING, SHE TOOK RENEE AND THAT LITTLE GIRL WITH HER, THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO GO TO THE MALL AND BE RIGHT BACK, PROMISED TO BE BACK BEFORE 4:00 PM BUT THEY'RE NOT BACK, THE OTHER FAMILIES ARE FREAKING OUT, YOU HAVE TO COME BACK AND HELP SEARCHING, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!!!"
and he just casually continued with his bowling match, cause that was his priority...
This mental picture leaves quite an impression, and in the past I used to express my anger and frustration over this outrageous behaviour.

But was it like that? Could as well be something like:
"Hi Tommy. Rachel went shopping with few girls and they should be back already, but they're running late. Their parents are worried. When you'll be back? I'll call you again if I'll learn anything new."
No need for psychopath to think that they underestimated the crowds, lost track of time or that Rachel may be intentionally not in a rush to be back home cause of the fight and that it's nothing serious, since mall was still open and full of people.

I can go along with that last point about reactions to Rachel's being missing (although the other families were rightfully hysterical), but I have to disagree with you about CA being at work that day. Besides the neighbor's statement, we have Verified Family Insiders and the word of Renee's father, who has provided the most consistent, reliable information in this case.
Regarding little ST being with the girls, did his mom actually say she saw him in the car with them? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just want to get my facts straight.

 

[FW_Froggy]

I can go along with that last point about reactions to Rachel's being missing (although the other families were rightfully hysterical), but I have to disagree with you about CA being at work that day. Besides the neighbor's statement, we have Verified Family Insiders and the word of Renee's father, who has provided the most consistent, reliable information in this case.
Regarding little ST being with the girls, did his mom actually say she saw him in the car with them? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just want to get my facts straight.

Did anybody see Cotton that day other than FA and TT? I don't recall Richard saying he saw Cotton that day. I don't recall the neighbors saying they saw Cotton that day ( they said the car didn't move ).

 

[Brightchaser47]

Did anybody see Cotton that day other than FA and TT? I don't recall Richard saying he saw Cotton that day. I don't recall the neighbors saying they saw Cotton that day ( they said the car didn't move ).

Are you suggesting he was bedridden, or someone picked him up and took him somewhere?

 

[FW_Froggy]

Are you suggesting he was bedridden, or someone picked him up and took him somewhere?

Don't know where he was that's why I'm asking.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Don't know where he was that's why I'm asking.

Verified Insider Wishyouknew(Family Member of Mary Trlica) addresses this pretty well in Thread #6, page 11. I didn't quote it because it's lengthy. It helps put many things into perspective.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Because LE cannot divulge what they know (and we do not wish to hinder LE in this case), where do WS's stand on the following characters:
1. "Preacher" Melvin
2. Robin Carter (acquaintance of CA and TL)
Can we rule either of them in or out?
(For the moment, we're putting aside TT)

 

[FW_Froggy]

Verified Insider Wishyouknew(Family Member of Mary Trlica) addresses this pretty well in Thread #6, page 11. I didn't quote it because it's lengthy. It helps put many things into perspective.

Yes I understand that is the Arnold side from someone who wasn't born when the girls disappeared and other insiders said CA was at the shop. Then there is FA who said she went to the shop and saw both. I don't think CA was that sick and I'm still wondering where CA was ALL that day. I wonder if CA called his Big brother that day who owned a trucking company. If I had an emergency the first person I'd call is my brother.

 

[beubeubeu]

I can go along with that last point about reactions to Rachel's being missing (although the other families were rightfully hysterical), but I have to disagree with you about CA being at work that day. Besides the neighbor's statement, we have Verified Family Insiders and the word of Renee's father, who has provided the most consistent, reliable information in this case.
Regarding little ST being with the girls, did his mom actually say she saw him in the car with them? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I just want to get my facts straight.

Julie's mom and Renee's parents were dealing with completely different circumstances in the same exact situation. We know that they knew for sure that their daughters weren't home at the time when they were expected to be. We don't know how much he knew about the situation and how was described to him at the time when he allegedly kept bowling despite of having some knowledge about Rachel not being home yet.

We have no Verified Insider and no clear whitness report from anyone who actually saw Cotton on that day.
Renee's dad was at work till afternoon, then he was searching for the girls. Quite likely he started that search after he or his wife called Arnold's to ask if they know anything - and possibly Cotton spoke to him on the phone then (making him able to confirm that he was indeed home at the time).
So as far as possibilities go - it's possible that something made him believe that Cotton was home all day, it's possible that he knew something that made him sure that Cotton was home all day, and it's also possible that he was misled.

After all, if he had all the accurate knowledge - we wouldn't be where we are now. Being consistent and reliable doesn't make anyone immune to being misled or lied to.

Having said that, IMHO there is no freaking way that all the people who provided false or inaccurate info about this case were involved or even had/have any knowledge about fate of the girls.

 

[beubeubeu]

Did anybody see Cotton that day other than FA and TT? I don't recall Richard saying he saw Cotton that day. I don't recall the neighbors saying they saw Cotton that day ( they said the car didn't move ).

No mention of that absolutely anywhere.
If he was indeed such a bad and unpleasant man, then I guess there could be people who maybe called their house and spoke to him in early Afternoon hours, told about it once and later simply didn't care about clearing out the name of a bad dead guy.

But if not, then how on Earth anyone, no matter if born in 30's, 50's or 90's could have any better insight to back up his presence at the house on that day could have any better insight than anyone else who heard Fran's claims and maybe had some opinion about her?

If he wasn't home - then chances that multiple people saw him elsewhere would be much greater. Some undisclosed neighbours, workers, customers, possibly even callers who could reach him at the workshop.

 

[beubeubeu]

Because LE cannot divulge what they know (and we do not wish to hinder LE in this case), where do WS's stand on the following characters:
1. "Preacher" Melvin
2. Robin Carter (acquaintance of CA and TL)
Can we rule either of them in or out?
(For the moment, we're putting aside TT)

Since existence of the first is uncertain and second was Renee's age or younger at the time...

Any ideas how - considering that Melvin's identity wasn't ever found, so it couldn't came from him or his other actions - would anyone figure that guy who showed up at the Arnold's and pretended to be a preacher found their address through licence plates to made that comment about it being so hard to do then?
I guess that Debra could idenfity him as the creep she met before... maybe Rachel was the source of the rest, and it wasn't all hearsay filtered by Fran's perception, but his description quotted by Ozoner few pages back sounded like it came from a storyteller who claimed to knew more than they could know if that story was true.

 

[FW_Froggy]

What if Cotton told FA he was going to the Mall to stand guard over the car like FA said he did and he went somewhere else and not the Mall. Then FA's story would be true as to how she knew it and Cotton would of had ALL night to do whatever. After all RA didn't know his Dad wasn't at the Mall till a few years ago. Does anybody know how much land CA's older brother had in East Texas in Dec. of 1974?

 

[beubeubeu]

What if Cotton told FA he was going to the Mall to stand guard over the car like FA said he did and he went somewhere else and not the Mall. Then FA's story would be true as to how she knew it and Cotton would of had ALL night to do whatever. After all RA didn't know his Dad wasn't at the Mall till a few years ago. Does anybody know how much land CA's older brother had in East Texas in Dec. of 1974?

Oh God...

 

[Brightchaser47]

Julie's mom and Renee's parents were dealing with completely different circumstances in the same exact situation. We know that they knew for sure that their daughters weren't home at the time when they were expected to be. We don't know how much he knew about the situation and how was described to him at the time when he allegedly kept bowling despite of having some knowledge about Rachel not being home yet.

We have no Verified Insider and no clear whitness report from anyone who actually saw Cotton on that day.
Renee's dad was at work till afternoon, then he was searching for the girls. Quite likely he started that search after he or his wife called Arnold's to ask if they know anything - and possibly Cotton spoke to him on the phone then (making him able to confirm that he was indeed home at the time).
So as far as possibilities go - it's possible that something made him believe that Cotton was home all day, it's possible that he knew something that made him sure that Cotton was home all day, and it's also possible that he was misled.

After all, if he had all the accurate knowledge - we wouldn't be where we are now. Being consistent and reliable doesn't make anyone immune to being misled or lied to.

Having said that, IMHO there is no freaking way that all the people who provided false or inaccurate info about this case were involved or even had/have any knowledge about fate of the girls.

Okay, I can go along with most of that (not sure about that last point).

 

[Brightchaser47]

Since existence of the first is uncertain and second was Renee's age or younger at the time...

Any ideas how - considering that Melvin's identity wasn't ever found, so it couldn't came from him or his other actions - would anyone figure that guy who showed up at the Arnold's and pretended to be a preacher found their address through licence plates to made that comment about it being so hard to do then?
I guess that Debra could idenfity him as the creep she met before... maybe Rachel was the source of the rest, and it wasn't all hearsay filtered by Fran's perception, but his description quotted by Ozoner few pages back sounded like it came from a storyteller who claimed to knew more than they could know if that story was true.

Robin Carter had older brothers who could've assisted him in mischief, but we'll let that go. I was just trying to eliminate the possibilities in the "Mall abduction" category (regarding suspects that weren't relatives).

 

[Brightchaser47]

What if Cotton told FA he was going to the Mall to stand guard over the car like FA said he did and he went somewhere else and not the Mall. Then FA's story would be true as to how she knew it and Cotton would of had ALL night to do whatever. After all RA didn't know his Dad wasn't at the Mall till a few years ago. Does anybody know how much land CA's older brother had in East Texas in Dec. of 1974?

Assuming he was well enough to travel, I'll bite. But there was some debate, as to whether he was able to drive, at that point (alleged black-out spells, etc.), unless he rode with someone...

 

[FW_Froggy]

Assuming he was well enough to travel, I'll bite. But there was some debate, as to whether he was able to drive, at that point (alleged black-out spells, etc.), unless he rode with someone...

Cotton was a race car driver. I guarantee you he was driving until his death. I don't buy that deathly sick stuff. Cotton was a tough O" Bird. Look at his picture with TT and Richard at Port Lavaca in April of 1975 and you will see a very healthy looking guy.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Cotton was a race car driver. I guarantee you he was driving until his death. I don't buy that deathly sick stuff. Cotton was a tough O" Bird. Look at his picture with TT and Richard at Port Lavaca in April of 1975 and you will see a very healthy looking guy.

Looks can be deceiving, but let's assume (for argument's sake) that you're right. What do you propose?