TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #8

[beubeubeu]

There is one more thing I wonder since my last attempt to go through all the newspaper articles to try make some sense out of it didn't make anything clearer for me. And actually the biggest revelation it brought to me was thanks to someone here - who pointed out that it's possible that FA wasn't lying but instead kept saying what she believed was the truth.

All these stories about Rachel, so many of them. Maybe they are just that: multiple stories that lost their best shape during the years. OR... maybe they're not. Cause now, thanks to Tonya I actually see some sort of consistence there.

Looking just at scraps of these stories:
... Rachel got assaulted by someone at the young age ... got pregnant but lost the baby (one way or another) ... ST & TT's marriage ended ... DA & TT dated ... yet he ended up marrying Rachel ...
Yeah, it may not be that odd for 16ish yo girl to marry in early 70's. And there are three reasons why such young girls marry: it's either forced on them by family (or the future spouse), caused by pregnancy or love. Not my place to judge on it, but just by the surface - in my experience when teenager is IN LOVE almost everyone around knows about it, yet at least few school/classmates of Rachel didn't knew, not poining out that she was of the secretative type.
And we also have DA who claims that oh hell yeah, they were bff sisters and shared everything - but in the same time she ended up having no clue about the assault, pregnancy, abortion, Melvin.
That leaves two options: either DA was lying/exagerrating/romanticizing the bond between them (which would't be shocking to anyone) OR the reason why DA wasn't aware of those things is that they did not happen - at all or in the suggested way.
I can see a young teenager not talking about the assault. Even with her friends, sister, nobody - completely possible, not even unusual. But why not talk about Melvin?
... and Rachel didn't appear like madly in love with TT (maybe in reality she was, but I'm relying only on the stories) ... yet ST claims that they were quite friendly with each other (not so common I think between teens sharing ex&current bf/spouse)

Maybe it's just one story that got torn apart with some facts kept in, some took out, some identities kept in, some changed. But how would that story sound if - just for the sake of theoretical scenario - would melt into one?

Btw. I can see how there could be no tension between DA and Rachel. It could be there but also quite likely that it wasn't (cause people are different, circumstances are different and so on).
But ST?! I mean of course it's also possible, but that IMO would have to be some next level calmness and acceptance.
Cause she had her ex husband dating other girl briefly, having that girl allowed to take care of their child - and her sister, his next, even younger wife, married with no baby on the way (as long as anyone from outside was concerned) also taking care of her child. That could easily cause A LOT of tension, yet according to her she was completely chilled about everything, chatting friendly...That's possible but for me, almost kinda unusual. Cause if she was indeed so friendly... then why she wasn't more involved in right from the start?

It does not sound very... compelling?
Maybe it is very compelling when some important details unknown to me are added.
But like that? It just doesn't sound compelling.

 

[Brightchaser47]

just by the surface - in my experience when teenager is IN LOVE almost everyone around knows about it, yet at least few school/classmates of Rachel didn't knew, not poining out that she was of the secretative type.

RA has stated Rachel was feisty and that the guys liked her. Beyond that (and assuming that's true), I don't know that we really know much (factual) about how she interacted with classmates.
I have trouble believing that a bunch of teen girls didn't notice a wedding ring, or even that Rachel was driving to school in a nicer, newer car (that Olds was not a clunker).

And we also have DA who claims that oh hell yeah, they were bff sisters and shared everything - but in the same time she ended up having no clue about the assault, pregnancy, abortion, Melvin.

Good point. I think if Rachel and DA were that close, and  if those things really occurred, then DA would indeed know about it (JMO).

... yet ST claims that they were quite friendly with each other (not so common I think between teens sharing ex&current bf/spouse)

For me, the jury is still out on ST ...

 

[lostcause]

I had never heard of this case. I joined for Alicia Navarro being found and the discussion on that but saw this pop up at the top of the page as having new posts. And wow, what a fascinating read. I cannot even believe DA would say this:
Debra was less obtuse. She told the Star-Telegram in 2000:

“I know he [Rusty] blames me. I know he thinks I had something to do with it. . . . Rusty thinks this letter that Tommy got the next day—he thinks I wrote it. . . . I didn’t write this letter. I don’t know who did. I don’t know what happened to my sister. Maybe white slavery. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me. I have nothing to hide.”

REALLY?! Of all things, WHITE SLAVERY? What in the hell. How would that make any sense to anyone?

There is a comment on this article allegedly from Julie's brother who was Renee's boyfriend. Worth the read.
Definitely gonna go down a rabbit hole with this one tomorrow!

 

[lostcause]

and with this -

Portrait of a True Crime Character

The Swiss Pastry Shop is a longtime Fort Worth establishment, the kind of place with wood floors, bingo hall chairs, and black forest cake staring at you from behind a glass. It had recently celebrated its 40th anniversary when Rusty Arnold suggested I meet him and Richard Wilson there in...

www.fwweekly.com

Debra did not respond to requests to speak for this story, but in 1999, she typed a three-page letter to Rusty chastising him and begging that he end the accusations toward her, which I found in one of many binders of records and notes that James had compiled on the case.

The letter criticizes Rusty’s inability to move on, points to the pain his obsession has caused their mother, and speaks to the trauma that she and Rachel endured at the hands of their father, reminding him of the bond the two sisters shared and the age difference between him and them. She cites an incident when she nearly died of a drug overdose: “What did you do? You sent detectives to the hospital because you were afraid that I was going to die and believed that I had some information about Rachel that I might want to confess in my dying breath.”

Perhaps most notable, though, are Debra’s direct challenges to aspects of Rusty’s own memory, which clearly became part of his narrative long before I met him.

“Rachel didn’t teach you to play guitar,” Debra wrote in 1999. “I did. She didn’t even know how. You have an uncontrollable need for things to be the way you need them to be. Not the way they were.”

Rusty told me proudly this year that he and Debra have reconnected and put aside their differences after years of estrangement.

Even James’ investigations seem to contradict the angelic image that Rusty has of Rachel. “He has an oddball assessment of Rachel and her character,” James said. Rusty is keen to highlight Debra’s troubling past, but according to James, Renee and especially Rachel were caught up in the same bad crowd. James also said friends of Rachel told him Rachel was having multiple affairs while married to Tommy. “She just made bad, bad decisions.”

and according to this article, Rachel may have been pregnant with her own father's child at the time of disappearance?! This is the most insane cold case ever. Wow

 

[Toniab329]

I had never heard of this case. I joined for Alicia Navarro being found and the discussion on that but saw this pop up at the top of the page as having new posts. And wow, what a fascinating read. I cannot even believe DA would say this:
Debra was less obtuse. She told the Star-Telegram in 2000:

“I know he [Rusty] blames me. I know he thinks I had something to do with it. . . . Rusty thinks this letter that Tommy got the next day—he thinks I wrote it. . . . I didn’t write this letter. I don’t know who did. I don’t know what happened to my sister. Maybe white slavery. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me. I have nothing to hide.”

REALLY?! Of all things, WHITE SLAVERY? What in the hell. How would that make any sense to anyone?

There is a comment on this article allegedly from Julie's brother who was Renee's boyfriend. Worth the read.
Definitely gonna go down a rabbit hole with this one tomorrow!

White slavery would be what we now call sex trafficking.

I'm glad we have a new set of eyes on this, in addition to the long-timers who won't give up.

 

[beubeubeu]

RA has stated Rachel was feisty and that the guys liked her. Beyond that (and assuming that's true), I don't know that we really know much (factual) about how she interacted with classmates.
I have trouble believing that a bunch of teen girls didn't notice a wedding ring, or even that Rachel was driving to school in a nicer, newer car (that Olds was not a clunker).

Pretty girls who are liked by boys are often subjected to the gossips so I'd take these alleged romances with a grin of salt. Or rather with a big pile of salt, especially since I heard someone talking about "bad side of Renee" and after doing much of vague talking provided only one example of her badness: which was that she smoked a cigarette while with friends. It could be all like that.

Of course we can rule out the possibility that all these romance interests of Rachel kept their mouth shut to not appear as possible suspect - cause not one of those allegedly real sidekicks ever came forward with such recollection like oh, I dated Rachel briefly when we were teens - but it's even more likely that there just wasn't anyone to share such story cause that just never happened.

I have trouble believing that a bunch of teen girls didn't notice a wedding ring, or even that Rachel was driving to school in a nicer, newer car (that Olds was not a clunker).

Well, it's much easier for me to imagine than in big clas of 30+ people (not sure how big it was in reality) SOME classmates that were kinda friendly with Rachel didn't knew about the marriage and ring than to buy that NONE of them noticed Melvin and those multiple affairs.
Cause dear hell, Rachel was allegedly meeting Melvin AT SCHOOL, yet the only mentioned source for this revelation is A's neighbour, who was W's friend and adult, 40ish yo male at the time. What about diamond ring from Melvin? Why classmates havent noticed that and how he did?

Good point. I think if Rachel and DA were that close, and  if those things really occurred, then DA would indeed know about it (JMO).

Of course, I came up with another "UNLESS".
Well, DA should know all these things if they indeed were that close... unless these things happened while DA wasn't living at home and they didn't have that many occasions to discuss it in private. Cause that's also an option. At least I have no idea how the timeline of that looked like: was DA living with parents while pregnant? Was she around at the time when Rachel got assaulted?

It's completely possible to be very close to someone but due to the lack of occasion to meet and talk in private for long periods of time to end up not sharing lots of BIG things about life, and while meeting and chatting eventually, to focus on more current events, especially if past was traumatic and present times problematic enough to worry about it more.

We know so little that it could go thousand different ways.

I cannot even believe DA would say this:
Debra was less obtuse. She told the Star-Telegram in 2000:

“I know he [Rusty] blames me. I know he thinks I had something to do with it. . . . Rusty thinks this letter that Tommy got the next day—he thinks I wrote it. . . . I didn’t write this letter. I don’t know who did. I don’t know what happened to my sister. Maybe white slavery. That’s the only thing that makes sense to me. I have nothing to hide.”

REALLY?! Of all things, WHITE SLAVERY? What in the hell. How would that make any sense to anyone?

It makes sense to many people to assume that young women who disappeared were abducted and trafficked.
Serial killers were kinda ruled out, at least known ones. Unknown ones are also unlikely cause they don't tend to care about hiding bodies and all the girls were never located.
They disappeared together despite of never going out together before.
Theory with blaming the husband or a stalker sound good, and are always considered as most likely but to take two kids as colaterral damage is almost unheard of.
And trafficking theory does not exclude some form of involvement from person or persons known to the girls.

If DA is telling truth there: and she has no clue as what could possibly happen to the girls, then it's horrifying, yet likely theory. For her there is no option of suspecing herself.

Also her mom and TT expressed same beliefs/suspicions over the years.

 

[snakefinger]

I've never ruled out trafficking in my view of the case. The service station note ("A9 1714 RM") alone raises a lot of questions, and rules out a whole of bunch of other possible scenarios. That's assuming it occurred as related (including the timing). And it doesn't even begin to explain the letter supposedly received the morning after the disappearance, which is one of the biggest question marks in the whole case.

 

[FW_Froggy]

My theories haven't changed much. I believe the three girls were ALL killed that day on the 23rd. and disposed of. For me the game of Clue begins with the disposal. I currently have it at 50-50. Disposed of by organized crime or buried on a relatives property.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Pretty girls who are liked by boys are often subjected to the gossips so I'd take these alleged romances with a grin of salt. Or rather with a big pile of salt, especially since I heard someone talking about "bad side of Renee" and after doing much of vague talking provided only one example of her badness: which was that she smoked a cigarette while with friends. It could be all like that.

Of course we can rule out the possibility that all these romance interests of Rachel kept their mouth shut to not appear as possible suspect - cause not one of those allegedly real sidekicks ever came forward with such recollection like oh, I dated Rachel briefly when we were teens - but it's even more likely that there just wasn't anyone to share such story cause that just never happened.

I have often wondered if Rachel did ever have a serious boyfriend before TT showed up. I don't recall ever hearing that she did. Being liked by boys, and dating boys aren't the same thing.

Well, it's much easier for me to imagine than in big clas of 30+ people (not sure how big it was in reality) SOME classmates that were kinda friendly with Rachel didn't knew about the marriage and ring than to buy that NONE of them noticed Melvin and those multiple affairs.
Cause dear hell, Rachel was allegedly meeting Melvin AT SCHOOL, yet the only mentioned source for this revelation is A's neighbour, who was W's friend and adult, 40ish yo male at the time. What about diamond ring from Melvin? Why classmates havent noticed that and how he did?

Those are fair points.

Of course, I came up with another "UNLESS".
Well, DA should know all these things if they indeed were that close... unless these things happened while DA wasn't living at home and they didn't have that many occasions to discuss it in private. Cause that's also an option.

Maybe.

At least I have no idea how the timeline of that looked like: was DA living with parents while pregnant? Was she around at the time when Rachel got assaulted?

I think it's been inferred that she wasn't.

 

[beubeubeu]

I have often wondered if Rachel did ever have a serious boyfriend before TT showed up. I don't recall ever hearing that she did. Being liked by boys, and dating boys aren't the same thing.

I often wondered if she had any relationships at all, serious or not.
eI know there is that supposedly reliable story from RW who saw something. But what was it really?
And it doesn't really make much sense for Renee to have interest in VB, yet right away invite VB for a three person's party just to allow Rachel to have a date with him. Possibly as I theorised sometime before: it was before she dated TM and it was HER date or an attempt to have one with Rachel covering up for her and pretending that it was her's.
This is all so freaking weird. Either literally all people mentioned in the story were very strange individuals, all having unusual patterns of behaviours (which is possible but very unlikely)... or these weird parts are tales (and that's also possible and very likely).

Multiple affairs at 16yo sounds like a tale to me. That may happen, but dear God WHEN? When did she had the time? She had school, small child to take care of occasionaly, daily bowling league with husband, whole household to take care of and best friend who was 14. When did she even got the time to get any occasions to make some poor decisions and have multiple affairs? If so then where are the whitnesses of these parties or even casual meetings she attended and why it looks like there is none?

 

[Brightchaser47]

I often wondered if she had any relationships at all, serious or not.
eI know there is that supposedly reliable story from RW who saw something. But what was it really?
And it doesn't really make much sense for Renee to have interest in VB, yet right away invite VB for a three person's party just to allow Rachel to have a date with him. Possibly as I theorised sometime before: it was before she dated TM and it was HER date or an attempt to have one with Rachel covering up for her and pretending that it was her's.
This is all so freaking weird. Either literally all people mentioned in the story were very strange individuals, all having unusual patterns of behaviours (which is possible but very unlikely)... or these weird parts are tales (and that's also possible and very likely).

Multiple affairs at 16yo sounds like a tale to me. That may happen, but dear God WHEN? When did she had the time? She had school, small child to take care of occasionaly, daily bowling league with husband, whole household to take care of and best friend who was 14. When did she even got the time to get any occasions to make some poor decisions and have multiple affairs? If so then where are the whitnesses of these parties or even casual meetings she attended and why it looks like there is none?

All excellent points.

 

[lostcause]

Pretty girls who are liked by boys are often subjected to the gossips so I'd take these alleged romances with a grin of salt. Or rather with a big pile of salt, especially since I heard someone talking about "bad side of Renee" and after doing much of vague talking provided only one example of her badness: which was that she smoked a cigarette while with friends. It could be all like that.

Of course we can rule out the possibility that all these romance interests of Rachel kept their mouth shut to not appear as possible suspect - cause not one of those allegedly real sidekicks ever came forward with such recollection like oh, I dated Rachel briefly when we were teens - but it's even more likely that there just wasn't anyone to share such story cause that just never happened.

Well, it's much easier for me to imagine than in big clas of 30+ people (not sure how big it was in reality) SOME classmates that were kinda friendly with Rachel didn't knew about the marriage and ring than to buy that NONE of them noticed Melvin and those multiple affairs.
Cause dear hell, Rachel was allegedly meeting Melvin AT SCHOOL, yet the only mentioned source for this revelation is A's neighbour, who was W's friend and adult, 40ish yo male at the time. What about diamond ring from Melvin? Why classmates havent noticed that and how he did?

Of course, I came up with another "UNLESS".
Well, DA should know all these things if they indeed were that close... unless these things happened while DA wasn't living at home and they didn't have that many occasions to discuss it in private. Cause that's also an option. At least I have no idea how the timeline of that looked like: was DA living with parents while pregnant? Was she around at the time when Rachel got assaulted?

It's completely possible to be very close to someone but due to the lack of occasion to meet and talk in private for long periods of time to end up not sharing lots of BIG things about life, and while meeting and chatting eventually, to focus on more current events, especially if past was traumatic and present times problematic enough to worry about it more.

We know so little that it could go thousand different ways.

It makes sense to many people to assume that young women who disappeared were abducted and trafficked.
Serial killers were kinda ruled out, at least known ones. Unknown ones are also unlikely cause they don't tend to care about hiding bodies and all the girls were never located.
They disappeared together despite of never going out together before.
Theory with blaming the husband or a stalker sound good, and are always considered as most likely but to take two kids as colaterral damage is almost unheard of.
And trafficking theory does not exclude some form of involvement from person or persons known to the girls.

If DA is telling truth there: and she has no clue as what could possibly happen to the girls, then it's horrifying, yet likely theory. For her there is no option of suspecing herself.

Also her mom and TT expressed same beliefs/suspicions over the years.

Hmm. Human trafficking does not present in such a way.

About Human Trafficking - United States Department of State

Human trafficking, also called trafficking in persons, has no place in our world. As both a grave crime and a human rights abuse, it compromises national and economic security, undermines the rule of law, and harms the well-being of individuals and communities everywhere. It is a crime of...

www.state.gov

In the United States, individuals vulnerable to human trafficking include children in the child welfare and juvenile justice systems, including foster care; runaway and homeless youth; unaccompanied foreign national children without lawful immigration status; individuals seeking asylum; American Indians and Alaska Natives, particularly women and girls; individuals with substance use issues; racial or ethnic minorities; migrant laborers, including undocumented workers and participants in visa programs for temporary workers; foreign national domestic workers in diplomatic households; persons with limited English proficiency; persons with disabilities; LGBTQI+ individuals; and victims of intimate partner violence or other forms of domestic violence.

 

[Brightchaser47]

Duplicate post

 

[Brightchaser47]

Hmm. Human trafficking does not present in such a way.

About Human Trafficking - United States Department of State

Human trafficking, also called trafficking in persons, has no place in our world. As both a grave crime and a human rights abuse, it compromises national and economic security, undermines the rule of law, and harms the well-being of individuals and communities everywhere. It is a crime of...

www.state.gov

In the United States, individuals vulnerable to human trafficking include children in the child welfare and juvenile justice systems, including foster care; runaway and homeless youth; unaccompanied foreign national children without lawful immigration status; individuals seeking asylum; American Indians and Alaska Natives, particularly women and girls; individuals with substance use issues; racial or ethnic minorities; migrant laborers, including undocumented workers and participants in visa programs for temporary workers; foreign national domestic workers in diplomatic households; persons with limited English proficiency; persons with disabilities; LGBTQI+ individuals; and victims of intimate partner violence or other forms of domestic violence.

The article (while factual and compelling) tells only part of the story, if you will. I respectfully submit there's much more to trafficking than that.
. For those who may not know, the term "white slavery" comes from the practice of shipping white people to America as slaves in the 17th-18th Centuries, as well as the worldwide expansion of prostitution that occurred in the early 20th Century, following the mass emigrations to America, from Europe.
Basicly, men in America vastly outnumbered women, and needed "entertainment". Victorian Era America saw many unattended young girls/ ladies (some "undeveloped") snatched off the streets by "grandmotherly" ladies who then escorted them to wealthy "gentlemen", to satisfy their "urges".
Now, closer to our current day and time...
In the 1970s (yes, in Fort Worth, Dallas, Houston, etc), motorcycle gangs traded in guns, drugs, and people- aka forced "prostitutes").
While it's possible that's not what happened to the trio, it's also possible it did. Of course, this is all my opinion.

 

[jetsfanjohn]

My theories haven't changed much. I believe the three girls were ALL killed that day on the 23rd. and disposed of. For me the game of Clue begins with the disposal. I currently have it at 50-50. Disposed of by organized crime or buried on a relatives property.

Yep. That's how I think it went down also. Girls killed early afternoon in a certain residence. Bodies moved that night in a van. Not 100% sure if organised crime had to even be involved though.

 

[Brightchaser47]

DP

 

[thefragile7393]

Yep. That's how I think it went down also. Girls killed early afternoon in a certain residence. Bodies moved that night in a van. Not 100% sure if organised crime had to even be involved though.

Don't see how organized crime would even be on the radar for this one, but everything else makes sense with known facts

 

[Brightchaser47]

I often wondered if she had any relationships at all, serious or not.
eI know there is that supposedly reliable story from RW who saw something. But what was it really?

I'm thinking that story was an embellishment of what actually occurred. Perhaps it was that embellishment that got Rachel into trouble. It would be extremely heartbreaking to find out she was murdered for something she didn't actually do...
Quite frankly, I think it's more credible that TT was having an affair than Rachel. He went through the wives; she didn't go through the husbands...

Multiple affairs at 16yo sounds like a tale to me. That may happen, but dear God WHEN? When did she had the time? She had school, small child to take care of occasionaly, daily bowling league with husband, whole household to take care of and best friend who was 14. When did she even got the time to get any occasions to make some poor decisions and have multiple affairs?

I don't believe there were any.

 

[Brightchaser47]

If you consider the possibility that
* the so-called 'party incident' was an exaggeration of something
* VB was never actually at the mall with the girls (but someone thought he was, and for reasons of his own, VB placed himself there)
you really don't have a motive for murder based on actual facts, but you  do have a motive for murder based on what a person  thought was going on. Very sad, but very possible. Having said that, we need another 'perceived' event occurring prior to all this, to really 'sell' the theory (IMO).

 

[FW_Froggy]

I often wondered if she had any relationships at all, serious or not.
eI know there is that supposedly reliable story from RW who saw something. But what was it really?
And it doesn't really make much sense for Renee to have interest in VB, yet right away invite VB for a three person's party just to allow Rachel to have a date with him. Possibly as I theorised sometime before: it was before she dated TM and it was HER date or an attempt to have one with Rachel covering up for her and pretending that it was her's.
This is all so freaking weird. Either literally all people mentioned in the story were very strange individuals, all having unusual patterns of behaviours (which is possible but very unlikely)... or these weird parts are tales (and that's also possible and very likely).

Multiple affairs at 16yo sounds like a tale to me. That may happen, but dear God WHEN? When did she had the time? She had school, small child to take care of occasionaly, daily bowling league with husband, whole household to take care of and best friend who was 14. When did she even got the time to get any occasions to make some poor decisions and have multiple affairs? If so then where are the whitnesses of these parties or even casual meetings she attended and why it looks like there is none?

The A's were multi-taskers. Look at ALL the places DA was on the night of the 22nd and the day of the 23rd. Look at ALL the places RT(RA) was on the night of the 22nd and the day of the 23rd. Look at ALL the places CA was on the 23rd. Look at ALL the places FA was on the 23rd.