TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #3

[llywrch]

Thank you TomPatty for posting the link. Welcome to Websleuths. I've added the link to the Media Thread.

Note - anybody can add to the media thread, just no discussion allowed.

Thanks for doing that, Claire.

I'm commenting here to Roselvr's comment in that thread, "I scanned thru it, doesn't look like they sent much." -- Yes, & no. Of the 20-odd pages the FoIA request uncovered, a lot of them are redacted versions of things already in the "Photos Only *NO DISCUSSION*" thread. What is new, IMHO, are the following:
* A difficult-to-read scan of LEK's death certificate.
* A fax response from Yahoo for information on the user account "mailtoruff@yahoo.com", which had the associated user account "txscheduler@yahoo.com"
* Two copies of Joseph Vellinger's investigation report (dated 19 October 2011), one redacted, the other unaltered.

Vellinger's report is probably the most interesting document this FoIA request uncovered, for it shows what he did for the first month he was given the case -- which is based on the assumption that LEK somehow knew of BST's death from her living relatives & acquaintances. Although we don't know what he did after filing this report, it suggests that Vellinger continued in this direction until all known relatives & acquaintances of BST were found, interviewed, & found to not know LEK.

FWIW, I suspect more than one report exists. For one thing, he continued to work on this case after 19 October. For another, the fact we have duplicate copies of this report are best understood if we assume the clerk handling this accidentally confused a second report to be released with an unredacted copy of the first report. (It's obvious that whoever redacted the material had no idea what is already public knowledge.)

Well, this is something. Whether it helps us get any further to learning LEK's birth name, is another issue. And I wonder what a second FoIA request might uncover. Based on other FoIA requests I have heard about, the government doesn't simply resend results already provided, but each one is handled as if the request has been made for the first time, & often returns different results.

 

[pie]

Yeah. The physical resemblance is there. He claims no knowledge when seeing her adult picture, yet gives the name of a family that may know the story. My guess is he had an affair, the woman got pregnant, and he's committed himself to denying forever. That child is FLEK.

To expand more, you can all go and speculate yourselves into a frenzy over flds and cults and army brats, but this was probably nothing more than a pissed off young adult taking an identity from a family she thought she should be part of.

 

[Sherwood Park]

To expand more, you can all go and speculate yourselves into a frenzy over flds and cults and army brats, but this was probably nothing more than a pissed off young adult taking an identity from a family she thought she should be part of.

You're likely correct, but FLDS, and murder witness in hiding sounds much more exciting :wink:

 

[Linda9681]

The theory she may be related to the BST family is not new.
Until proven, keep looking...
I came across a picture of a woman who looks EXACTLY like FLEK. I mean when I followed the lead to that Facebook page and the girls moms picture was RIGHT THERE. I gasped. Even my hard to impress investigator husband said the person was a dead ringer.
Sooo, with that being said, either BST WAS this woman or her relative, ( but I am not allowed to follow up on this)
Or the theory that if you look alike you must be related is not valid.
For what it is worth, you can take any pic of FLEK and think she looks like someone else. All her pics look different from each other. I really think we should be focused on the Idaho ID as that pic is the one from the very beginning...
Side note.. The family of BST seems very " lifetime TV"


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[CoverMeCagney]

The theory she may be related to the BST family is not new.
Until proven, keep looking...
I came across a picture of a woman who looks EXACTLY like FLEK. I mean when I followed the lead to that Facebook page and the girls moms picture was RIGHT THERE. I gasped. Even my hard to impress investigator husband said the person was a dead ringer.
Sooo, with that being said, either BST WAS this woman or her relative, ( but I am not allowed to follow up on this)
Or the theory that if you look alike you must be related is not valid.
For what it is worth, you can take any pic of FLEK and think she looks like someone else. All her pics look different from each other. I really think we should be focused on the Idaho ID as that pic is the one from the very beginning...
Side note.. The family of BST seems very " lifetime TV"

Was this the Jennifer lead? And why aren't you allowed to follow it up any more?

 

[Linda9681]

Yep. Same one. I was asked by a contact that is a distant relative to let it go since they are heavily involved in politics ( several members). Evidently there was a second child (!) that was not " registered" on the family tree and he thought it might be unsafe to pursue, especially he did not want his name involved. I can't post here due to board rules and legal liability. It's very frustrating.


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[CoverMeCagney]

Apologies but I'm a bit confused - has the Jennifer lead got anything at all to do with TT and his family? Or are they two completely separate theories? Could somebody familiar with the case summarise which theories are on the table (pretty please!)?

 

[HerStory]

Wait a minute. In the FoI report (page 21), it states that there is no DNA available, but that there were fingerprints (as per suicide protocol). I thought there was an assumption that DNA was being used to exclude potential matches. Plus, it also looks like she was cremated before burial.

 

[kimlo]

Namus says dna is avaliable, with test complete. They probably didnt take it at autopsy, because at that point they didnt know about the identity issues she was a straight forward suicide. They might have a sample taken from the daughter later.

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[SassyBenton]

Thanks for doing that, Claire.

I'm commenting here to Roselvr's comment in that thread, "I scanned thru it, doesn't look like they sent much." -- Yes, & no. Of the 20-odd pages the FoIA request uncovered, a lot of them are redacted versions of things already in the "Photos Only *NO DISCUSSION*" thread. What is new, IMHO, are the following:
* A difficult-to-read scan of LEK's death certificate.
* A fax response from Yahoo for information on the user account "mailtoruff@yahoo.com", which had the associated user account "txscheduler@yahoo.com"
* Two copies of Joseph Vellinger's investigation report (dated 19 October 2011), one redacted, the other unaltered.

Vellinger's report is probably the most interesting document this FoIA request uncovered, for it shows what he did for the first month he was given the case -- which is based on the assumption that LEK somehow knew of BST's death from her living relatives & acquaintances. Although we don't know what he did after filing this report, it suggests that Vellinger continued in this direction until all known relatives & acquaintances of BST were found, interviewed, & found to not know LEK.

FWIW, I suspect more than one report exists. For one thing, he continued to work on this case after 19 October. For another, the fact we have duplicate copies of this report are best understood if we assume the clerk handling this accidentally confused a second report to be released with an unredacted copy of the first report. (It's obvious that whoever redacted the material had no idea what is already public knowledge.)

Well, this is something. Whether it helps us get any further to learning LEK's birth name, is another issue. And I wonder what a second FoIA request might uncover. Based on other FoIA requests I have heard about, the government doesn't simply resend results already provided, but each one is handled as if the request has been made for the first time, & often returns different results.

I'm wondering about this as well. The report basically stops after TT points in the direction of the man in Valley, WA. Did Velling not follow up with that family? I don’t think the investigation ended there…

 

[HerStory]

My personal opinion (but who am I to say, as an unhinged busybody?) that the FH is a red herring, thrown out by TT. The more I hear about this and see photos, I am convinced that TT knows more than he lets on. Something is 'odd' about how his own (acknowledged) daughter refers to him by his surname.

While this is just my own personal instinct and opinion, I agree with Linda that by closing my mind to other potentials, it could mean that other leads slip away. I like how we are dividing and conquering little and big bites of this mystery.

Makes me wonder just how close we have brushed the truth, either with concentrated effort or by coincidence, in many of our pursuits of clues and information.

 

[tarheelslim]

Something is 'odd' about how his own (acknowledged) daughter refers to him by his surname.

Could be because they both have the same name

 

[HerStory]

Yeah, but wouldn't she refer to him as 'dad' and not his first or last name?

 

[PickAName]

Yeah, but wouldn't she refer to him as 'dad' and not his first or last name?

That struck me as odd too. I'd call him "dad" also. The only way I'd refer to him by last name is if I didn't think much of him. Of course, that's just my view of referring to a parent in that way.

 

[Roselvr]

Thanks for doing that, Claire.

I'm commenting here to Roselvr's comment in that thread, "I scanned thru it, doesn't look like they sent much." -- Yes, & no. Of the 20-odd pages the FoIA request uncovered, a lot of them are redacted versions of things already in the "Photos Only *NO DISCUSSION*" thread. What is new, IMHO, are the following:
* A difficult-to-read scan of LEK's death certificate.
* A fax response from Yahoo for information on the user account "mailtoruff@yahoo.com", which had the associated user account "txscheduler@yahoo.com"
* Two copies of Joseph Vellinger's investigation report (dated 19 October 2011), one redacted, the other unaltered.

Vellinger's report is probably the most interesting document this FoIA request uncovered, for it shows what he did for the first month he was given the case -- which is based on the assumption that LEK somehow knew of BST's death from her living relatives & acquaintances. Although we don't know what he did after filing this report, it suggests that Vellinger continued in this direction until all known relatives & acquaintances of BST were found, interviewed, & found to not know LEK.

FWIW, I suspect more than one report exists. For one thing, he continued to work on this case after 19 October. For another, the fact we have duplicate copies of this report are best understood if we assume the clerk handling this accidentally confused a second report to be released with an unredacted copy of the first report. (It's obvious that whoever redacted the material had no idea what is already public knowledge.)

Well, this is something. Whether it helps us get any further to learning LEK's birth name, is another issue. And I wonder what a second FoIA request might uncover. Based on other FoIA requests I have heard about, the government doesn't simply resend results already provided, but each one is handled as if the request has been made for the first time, & often returns different results.

I'm wondering about this as well. The report basically stops after TT points in the direction of the man in Valley, WA. Did Velling not follow up with that family? I don’t think the investigation ended there…

The docs sent did not look current to me. I assumed there would be more. Will try to read over it today or tomorrow.

The theory she may be related to the BST family is not new.
Until proven, keep looking...
I came across a picture of a woman who looks EXACTLY like FLEK. I mean when I followed the lead to that Facebook page and the girls moms picture was RIGHT THERE. I gasped. Even my hard to impress investigator husband said the person was a dead ringer.
Sooo, with that being said, either BST WAS this woman or her relative, ( but I am not allowed to follow up on this)
Or the theory that if you look alike you must be related is not valid.
For what it is worth, you can take any pic of FLEK and think she looks like someone else. All her pics look different from each other. I really think we should be focused on the Idaho ID as that pic is the one from the very beginning...
Side note.. The family of BST seems very " lifetime TV"


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She resembled Helen Cook a lot too.

Namus says dna is avaliable, with test complete. They probably didnt take it at autopsy, because at that point they didnt know about the identity issues she was a straight forward suicide. They might have a sample taken from the daughter later.

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You're correct, there is DNA in NamUs as well as one of the family tree sites, I do not recall if it was Family Tree DNA or 23 and me. The info was in one of the articles I linked in 08-15-2015, 02:10 PM #40

That struck me as odd too. I'd call him "dad" also. The only way I'd refer to him by last name is if I didn't think much of him. Of course, that's just my view of referring to a parent in that way.

I refer to mine as my "mother" or her 1st name. She was never a mother to me, used to instigate trouble between myself and the younger and older siblings

 

[llywrch]

My personal opinion (but who am I to say, as an unhinged busybody?) that the FH is a red herring, thrown out by TT. The more I hear about this and see photos, I am convinced that TT knows more than he lets on. Something is 'odd' about how his own (acknowledged) daughter refers to him by his surname.

Was anyone else surprised to learn that the Ts were separated, probably divorced, when Agent Velling interviewed them? I went back to the Seattle Times article, & only if you read it carefully is there any hint that the two are not living together. And it's only apparent if you know that ahead of time: in one paragraph, Velling is described as sitting in Mrs Turner's living room showing her LEK's photo, & in the next he shows it to Mr Velling. If they were in the same room, this would be likely described differently.

At some points I feel we are not examining the evidence itself, but what Velling as well as Maureen O'Hagan think the evidence is & what it means.

While this is just my own personal instinct and opinion, I agree with Linda that by closing my mind to other potentials, it could mean that other leads slip away. I like how we are dividing and conquering little and big bites of this mystery.

Makes me wonder just how close we have brushed the truth, either with concentrated effort or by coincidence, in many of our pursuits of clues and information.

One problem is that we have been reduced to reading between the words, weighing shadings of meanings, emphasis of details, & speculating on whether omitted information are significant silences. We probably have tripped over the solution to her birth name & pre-1988 identity several times without even knowing it. The blind leading the blind.

Just another frustrated nosy person

 

[Cafegirl]

But remember,they ran her fingerprints through the system,no matches.they ran her image through a national facial recognition system,no matches.so she hadn't been fingerprinted,and no mug shot.that was my theory at one time,that she committed a terrible crime as a juvenile and upon release,she wanted a fresh start.but someone would have recognized her by now.

 

[PickAName]

Was anyone else surprised to learn that the Turners were separated, probably divorced, when Agent Velling interviewed them? I went back to the Seattle Times article, & only if you read it carefully is there any hint that the two are not living together. And it's only apparent if you know that ahead of time: in one paragraph, Velling is described as sitting in Mrs Turner's living room showing her LEK's photo, & in the next he shows it to Mr Velling. If they were in the same room, this would be likely described differently.

Add me to the list. The article was vague about that as it happened just as you said. I thought Velling was in Mrs. Turner's living room and showed it (LEKs picture) to her then showed it to Mr. Turner. No indication that Mr. Turner was in Hawaii.

It doesn't surprise me though that they did get divorced. Perhaps the tragedy caused it, amongst other things. But it also wouldn't surprise me if they stayed together either. Some couples do despite tragedies.

Just call me another frustrated, unhinged nosy person, lol!

 

[llywrch]

Wait a minute. In the FoI report (page 21), it states that there is no DNA available, but that there were fingerprints (as per suicide protocol). I thought there was an assumption that DNA was being used to exclude potential matches. Plus, it also looks like she was cremated before burial.

In the Seattle Times livechat, agent Velling answered that question. The mortuary supplied skin & hair samples, which apparently were taken before the body was cremated.

Yes, one needs to do a lot of looking to find all of the known facts in this case. For future reference, a transcript of the livechat can be found at http://live.seattletimes.com/Event/Live_chat_with_investigator_reporter_about_Jane_Doe_case?Page=0

 

[MysticJynx]

Not sure whats been happening in this thread lately been on MaM mission. However on facebook the other day I came across a missing person's page that is not in Namus. The 2 pictures they show of this missing woman don't really look exactly like Lori. but didn't they say they thought she had a nose job. The woman is 5'9" Brown hair and hazel eyes born in 1963 and from California. Sounded like it could be FLEK so I did contact the facebook page and let them know about Lori, but I thought I would Post Lissy's page, https://www.facebook.com/Bring-Lissy-Home-968320613221382/?_rdr=p See what your opinions might be.