TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5
- Thread starter Sillybilly
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I am hoping Linda D. will respond to give us insight on how records were processed in 1988. If she doesn't contact us, do we have anyone local to Bakersfield who can visit the courthouse and track down someone who worked there in 1988?
These are my questions for that person:
What type of identification was needed to receive a birth certificate?
Does the date on the certification page show the date the record was pulled? How were pulled records processed?
Could someone call or fax and request a record and collect it later? Was this process used b the general public or mainly members of the legal profession?
What do the codes mean?
Were any other documents included on the receipt?
Could an attorney pick up the document and what type of ID was needed?
Was anyone at the courthouse familiar with Perkins, the Turner family or Lori?
Was the death of the Turner girls well known in the community?
What was the SA Camp farm like in the late 1960's? (I saw an article on a strike at the farm)
Can they tell if the record was mailed or collected in person by the receipt?
These are my questions for that person:
What type of identification was needed to receive a birth certificate?
Does the date on the certification page show the date the record was pulled? How were pulled records processed?
Could someone call or fax and request a record and collect it later? Was this process used b the general public or mainly members of the legal profession?
What do the codes mean?
Were any other documents included on the receipt?
Could an attorney pick up the document and what type of ID was needed?
Was anyone at the courthouse familiar with Perkins, the Turner family or Lori?
Was the death of the Turner girls well known in the community?
What was the SA Camp farm like in the late 1960's? (I saw an article on a strike at the farm)
Can they tell if the record was mailed or collected in person by the receipt?
Gardener1850
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I've been poking around the Kern County record website trying to figure out what else that B.TRST code could be or trying to find some other document related. I found an interesting document for Turner.
Go here: http://recorderonline.co.kern.ca.us/
Select Official Documents
Select Grantor/Grantee
In the name search field type Turner Terry
Look at the record for Terry J
It's an abstract judgement from 8/28/1969
Grantee is [SIZE=-1]HERBERT P SEARS CO INC
Any thoughts on what this document could be?
If those are the real BST's parents listed could this be the other document purchased?[/SIZE]
Go here: http://recorderonline.co.kern.ca.us/
Select Official Documents
Select Grantor/Grantee
In the name search field type Turner Terry
Look at the record for Terry J
It's an abstract judgement from 8/28/1969
Grantee is [SIZE=-1]HERBERT P SEARS CO INC
Any thoughts on what this document could be?
If those are the real BST's parents listed could this be the other document purchased?[/SIZE]
Sounds like its a judgment with the terms. Perhaps they were sued for a debt and lost?
astridxx
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Gardener1850
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Another item of interest to look up: Mallon Oil
There are 2 documents from 1984 and 1985 with a list of 11 different grantees.
milkymama
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A little bit of info on the below. Still would great for someone who actually worked in the records office to confirm.
What type of identification was needed to receive a birth certificate?
Could someone call or fax and request a record and collect it later? Was this process used b the general public or mainly members of the legal profession?
Could an attorney pick up the document and what type of ID was needed?
As of March 1988, California was an "Open Records State".
"All States Vulnerable To Fraud; "Open Record" States More So
Five of the 12 States visited -- California, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Vermont and
Washington -- had laws which classify them as "open record" States. These are
States, as succinctly stated by a local registrar, in which: "By law, the original birth
registration is a public record. Anyone can see it and get a copy of it. We have no
authority to question."
....
The five "open" States visited allow any individual with the minimum information
necessary to apply for and obtain a copy of anyone s birth certificate. Offices in
these States generally do not require any ID from the applicant. "
"Applicants who mail or telephone in their requests, without application form
usually did not have to give any identification or even provide their signatures.
Registrars saw mail requests as the most vulnerable mode of request because
there is no opportunity to question the person as with "walk-ins" and even "phoneins." "
See more here: https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oai-02-86-00001.pdf
What type of identification was needed to receive a birth certificate?
Could someone call or fax and request a record and collect it later? Was this process used b the general public or mainly members of the legal profession?
Could an attorney pick up the document and what type of ID was needed?
As of March 1988, California was an "Open Records State".
"All States Vulnerable To Fraud; "Open Record" States More So
Five of the 12 States visited -- California, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Vermont and
Washington -- had laws which classify them as "open record" States. These are
States, as succinctly stated by a local registrar, in which: "By law, the original birth
registration is a public record. Anyone can see it and get a copy of it. We have no
authority to question."
....
The five "open" States visited allow any individual with the minimum information
necessary to apply for and obtain a copy of anyone s birth certificate. Offices in
these States generally do not require any ID from the applicant. "
"Applicants who mail or telephone in their requests, without application form
usually did not have to give any identification or even provide their signatures.
Registrars saw mail requests as the most vulnerable mode of request because
there is no opportunity to question the person as with "walk-ins" and even "phoneins." "
See more here: https://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oai-02-86-00001.pdf
Thanks that's a great document! If both CA. and WA. were open states in 1988 and only the CA. birth certificate was used fraudulently, it points to LEK getting the certificate on her own. If an identity broker came across all three deaths from the newspaper article and both states were open, why not take all three birth certificates? Did Velling ever say if the birth certificates in WA. were marked deceased? That would seem to be the only reason those birth certificates weren't used as well an identity broker was involved.
HP Sears is a collection agency http://www.hpsears.com/
"Since 1928 HP Sears has serviced both consumer and commercial accounts receivable industries from its Bakersfield California location. Specializing in Healthcare, Utility, Government, and financial institutions."
An abstract of judgment is the terms in which the judgment will be paid.
wonder if they had debts due to medical bills with the birth of a child maybe?
"Since 1928 HP Sears has serviced both consumer and commercial accounts receivable industries from its Bakersfield California location. Specializing in Healthcare, Utility, Government, and financial institutions."
An abstract of judgment is the terms in which the judgment will be paid.
wonder if they had debts due to medical bills with the birth of a child maybe?
She still hasn't opened the message. Here are the contact details for the Kern Count records office - does someone local to CA want to try calling to ask if someone can answer the above questions? If not, then I will email the email address and ask.
PH 661-868-6400
FX 661-327-3241 (Recordings)
FX 661-868-6432 (Vital Records)
response@co.kern.ca.us
Recordings 8a - 2p M-F
Copies 8a - 4:30p M-F
Research 8a - 5p M-F
(Except Holidays)
Owutatangledweb
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Generally, if someone gets a judgment against you in a court, a certificate of judgment can be filed in the county recorders office (the office that records deeds) so that a lien can be put on real estate that is owned. Not sure about California; they may call it an abstract of judgment?
BigCityAccountant
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The Terry Turner judgement was a unpaid debt owed to Sears. I cannot remember who posted the judicial records website, but it shows up in there. IIRC, it was a debt under $5k.
BigCityAccountant
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So bumping off Gardener's Mallon post here...
There was a P@tr!ck and Fr@nc!s who lived in Taft CA. From what I can gather is they one had 1 child, Ell!*tt. However, what is interesting is that they are buried in West Side District Cemetery on CEDAR St, in Taft CA. http://www.interment.net/data/us/ca/kern/west-side-district-cemetery-records-m-n.htm
What makes it more interesting is that the son lived in CA, AZ, and PA. I believe he is now deceased, however he has had several ex's. I'm trying to track down the ex's now.
There was a P@tr!ck and Fr@nc!s who lived in Taft CA. From what I can gather is they one had 1 child, Ell!*tt. However, what is interesting is that they are buried in West Side District Cemetery on CEDAR St, in Taft CA. http://www.interment.net/data/us/ca/kern/west-side-district-cemetery-records-m-n.htm
What makes it more interesting is that the son lived in CA, AZ, and PA. I believe he is now deceased, however he has had several ex's. I'm trying to track down the ex's now.
BigCityAccountant
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So, I found an article from 1990 from the Arizona Mining Records Curator. The article is a .pdf and is part of the Arizona Department of Mines and Mineral Resource Mining Collection. The article has a business card for Mallon Minerals Corporation A NASDAQ-Listed Gold Producer. The business card states "seeks U.S. Precious Metals Property Exploration and Acquisition Opportunities Contact: J. Sc*tt Hazl!tt, VP Exploration, 1099 18th St, Suite 2750, Denver, CO 80202 (303)293-2333.
JSH's mother appears to be Jo H and a PEO member..hum???
http://www.estesparknews.com/local_obituaries/article_0605131a-6206-11e5-af10-5ba58a3d699a.html
JSH's mother appears to be Jo H and a PEO member..hum???
http://www.estesparknews.com/local_obituaries/article_0605131a-6206-11e5-af10-5ba58a3d699a.html
I am going to throw this story into the pot that I ran across today. It involves Burbank, Kern County (Bakersfield) in 1986-88 time frame, securities fraud, mail fraud, and the feds. http://articles.latimes.com/1988-04-13/business/fi-904_1_sec-suit
found lots of LA times articles on it. There was a boiler room operation. it all came to a crashing halt about the time lori was planning her new identity. might be a stretch. Would like to learn more about Reynolds and Moreland.
found lots of LA times articles on it. There was a boiler room operation. it all came to a crashing halt about the time lori was planning her new identity. might be a stretch. Would like to learn more about Reynolds and Moreland.
I have emailed Kern County asking the above questions plus a couple more. I didn't ask them about the SA Camp Farm but if you wanted to know more about that there is a good facebook group I found called 'Kern County of Old', maybe you could post on there or message one of the frequent users? (You'll see there are a bunch of regulars on there who obviously know a lot about local history).
I am probably going down a rabbit hole, but an interesting one. The defendant Moreland was represented by a Bakersfield attorney Edward C Louis whowas charged with embezzling money from clients and then in march 1988 was arrested for two counts of solicitation of murder for trying to hire someone to kill one of the clients.
https://books.google.com/books?id=s...age&q=attorney Edward LeLouis charged&f=false
I cannot find what happened in this case. He was disbarred in 1991 after voluntarily retiring his license while on suspension.
http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Member/Detail/49592
here is a little info on the embezzlement charges http://www.rgmistriel.com/BKRSFLDCLFRN/jagels_3.htm
just wondered if FLEK worked for him or maybe Moreland. the info is sketchy on the outcomes of all of these crimes online anyway. Can't find much on Moreland or Rg Reynolds or this attorney after the 80's. One of the embezzlement victims was an Alzheimer patient but no name is mentioned in any article.
Owutatangledweb
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Please take a look at today's posts on the following WS thread. Roselvr is working on getting this little girl in Namus. Does anyone else think that Little Sharon has an odd mouth/teeth for a five year old? And does her mouth and teeth remind anyone else here of FLEK? The age and geography could be about right.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...em-UP10741-6-7-Jul-60&p=12803256#post12803256
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...em-UP10741-6-7-Jul-60&p=12803256#post12803256
I think it's always worth looking closely at cases where kids have gone missing - when we wonder why why no one was 'looking for' FLEK, i.e. a late teens/early 20s woman around the late 1980s, this can be one explanation. I am not able to decipher much of the newspaper text in the articles Roselvr posted but I'd be interested to know what Little Sharon's sister looks like as an adult. I couldn't quite make out her name in the caption in the newspaper photo?
There is a certain look around Sharon's mouth that reminds me of FLEK.
fasteddy8170
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I will admit I haven't read every page of this thread. But I've followed the case for a while. Like all of you I've spent some time looking at all the paperwork, the phone numbers, the addresses, etc. However, I think this all comes down to some basics.
1. Why did she pick that little girl from 1971? More to the point, how did LEK even know that girl died? I can conceive of only two ways in the pre-Internet age of 1988. The first choice: Either LEK knew the little girl died because LEK lived in Bakersfield where BST was originally born and saw it in the papers as a little girl when the news spread back to that area OR LEK lived near Fife, WA when the fire happened and heard about it in the same way there. Because, frankly, a little girl dying in a fire isn't exactly national news. And let's say LEK was 8 years old at the time. How many 8 years old follow news? However, an 8 year old might hear something that adults are talking about, especially if it's local story OR the story is about a family who used to live in the area. And LEK might've remembered that story in 1988 when she decided to change identities.
The second choice: As an adult, LEK decided she wanted to change identities and spent HOURS going to a library, scanning microfiche for an appropriate identity she could steal. Now, if she was trying to "run away" from something or someone due to fear, at some point wouldn't the other person get a little suspicious that LEK was spending a lot of time at the library or in some unknown place? An abusive husband. A pimp. A drug dealer. It just stretches the imagination a bit.
Granted, I realize the possibility of an "identity broker" has been mentioned. But this reveals the same problem. An identity broker doesn't have anymore knowledge about deaths in the USA than the average person. This broker would have to do the same amount of searching to find an appropriate identity to steal. And somehow this broker finds a story that's 17 years old from an obscure town in WA that had a population of 1500 at the time? To make it easy, wouldn't a broker simply look in the big newspapers--NY Times, LA Times, Wash Post, etc. for the death of a baby or youngster? I can't imagine the death of the real Becky Sue Turner made news in any big newspaper anywhere.
Thus, my bet is that LEK knew about the death of the real BST because she heard the story firsthand as a child, either being in Bakersfield or near Fife at the time. Her lack of an accent would support the theory.
2. I'm wondering why she kept that paperwork. Let me get this right: LEK goes through great pains to avoid talking about her past, even ticking off her husband and in-laws in the process. BUT, her identity theft evidence was only a locked drawer away with the orders to NEVER try to open it? The way I am, that would've only made me want to open the drawer more. But in any case, her behavior seems inconsistent. Why not burn everything if her past needed to remain a mystery forever? It's hard to understand. I'm wondering . . . was she planning to change her identity back to Becky Sue Turner at some point? Maybe even more accurately, was she going to use that old paperwork to change her identity again to something new--thinking she might have complications if she used her Lori Erica Ruff identity? I wonder.
3. As far as all the phone numbers, addresses, etc., that nobody has gotten anywhere with it after a few years tells me that it's probably just the scribblings of a woman who was losing her mind. None of the people at those phone numbers or addresses recognize her or knew her. None of the info can be connected to each other. In fact, can we even be sure that LEK wrote all the words and numbers on that page? I'm sure a handwriting expert has already checked it but still . . . many of those letters and numbers look different from word to word to me. Likewise, there is stuff from Denver, LA, AZ, Dallas, and wherever else--all on one piece of paper. Who keeps one piece of paper for all that? Was it all done in one day or over the course of a week? A month? A year? Well, nobody knows. Or even what year it would be. Was it before she changed identities or after? It all feels like a wild goose chase to me. That it's all so jumbled together with phone numbers and words running into other numbers and words tells me that this was done at a time when her mind was starting to leave her, once again putting the helpfulness of any of it in doubt.
4. I'd like to know what her interests were. Yes, people can hide their past but nobody has a strong enough mind to cover up everything. Did she root for any professional teams? What kind of music did she like? She may have had no accent but certain words are particular to certain areas of the USA. Soda or pop? Hoagie or sub? Where I'm originally from, people used the term "red up" to mean "make a room neat." Did her husband notice she had some talents for which there was no explanation? Gardening? Painting? A musical instrument? What kind of food did she like to cook? All of these things can tell A LOT about a person because they are so subconscious that we don't even think about them. LEK would've been the same way.
5. One peculiar thing is how her teeth got so separated as she got older. My eyes tell me she had braces as a kid or had some extensive cosmetic dental work done before she became Becky Sue Turner in 1988. And her teeth were pretty good for a long time. Then that one picture with the hat . . . her teeth are separated as if she never had straight teeth at all. I'm wondering if there is some disease that would cause that. Me? I never had braces or work done and my teeth have remained the same way for the last 30 years. Not LEK's. Is there some nationality or ethnicity that is more susceptible to some kind of disease that changes the configuration of a person's jaw? Is there a genetic makeup that's more prone to that? That might also be helpful in narrowing done her nationality. Also, maybe someone should pony up a couple bucks for her DNA to be traced to find out what her ancestry is. Has that been done yet?
6. As far as her losing her mind, I've convinced myself that happened because a person can only keep secrets for so long before the wiring starts going bad. Thus, I don't believe she's some kind of escaped insane asylum patient.
1. Why did she pick that little girl from 1971? More to the point, how did LEK even know that girl died? I can conceive of only two ways in the pre-Internet age of 1988. The first choice: Either LEK knew the little girl died because LEK lived in Bakersfield where BST was originally born and saw it in the papers as a little girl when the news spread back to that area OR LEK lived near Fife, WA when the fire happened and heard about it in the same way there. Because, frankly, a little girl dying in a fire isn't exactly national news. And let's say LEK was 8 years old at the time. How many 8 years old follow news? However, an 8 year old might hear something that adults are talking about, especially if it's local story OR the story is about a family who used to live in the area. And LEK might've remembered that story in 1988 when she decided to change identities.
The second choice: As an adult, LEK decided she wanted to change identities and spent HOURS going to a library, scanning microfiche for an appropriate identity she could steal. Now, if she was trying to "run away" from something or someone due to fear, at some point wouldn't the other person get a little suspicious that LEK was spending a lot of time at the library or in some unknown place? An abusive husband. A pimp. A drug dealer. It just stretches the imagination a bit.
Granted, I realize the possibility of an "identity broker" has been mentioned. But this reveals the same problem. An identity broker doesn't have anymore knowledge about deaths in the USA than the average person. This broker would have to do the same amount of searching to find an appropriate identity to steal. And somehow this broker finds a story that's 17 years old from an obscure town in WA that had a population of 1500 at the time? To make it easy, wouldn't a broker simply look in the big newspapers--NY Times, LA Times, Wash Post, etc. for the death of a baby or youngster? I can't imagine the death of the real Becky Sue Turner made news in any big newspaper anywhere.
Thus, my bet is that LEK knew about the death of the real BST because she heard the story firsthand as a child, either being in Bakersfield or near Fife at the time. Her lack of an accent would support the theory.
2. I'm wondering why she kept that paperwork. Let me get this right: LEK goes through great pains to avoid talking about her past, even ticking off her husband and in-laws in the process. BUT, her identity theft evidence was only a locked drawer away with the orders to NEVER try to open it? The way I am, that would've only made me want to open the drawer more. But in any case, her behavior seems inconsistent. Why not burn everything if her past needed to remain a mystery forever? It's hard to understand. I'm wondering . . . was she planning to change her identity back to Becky Sue Turner at some point? Maybe even more accurately, was she going to use that old paperwork to change her identity again to something new--thinking she might have complications if she used her Lori Erica Ruff identity? I wonder.
3. As far as all the phone numbers, addresses, etc., that nobody has gotten anywhere with it after a few years tells me that it's probably just the scribblings of a woman who was losing her mind. None of the people at those phone numbers or addresses recognize her or knew her. None of the info can be connected to each other. In fact, can we even be sure that LEK wrote all the words and numbers on that page? I'm sure a handwriting expert has already checked it but still . . . many of those letters and numbers look different from word to word to me. Likewise, there is stuff from Denver, LA, AZ, Dallas, and wherever else--all on one piece of paper. Who keeps one piece of paper for all that? Was it all done in one day or over the course of a week? A month? A year? Well, nobody knows. Or even what year it would be. Was it before she changed identities or after? It all feels like a wild goose chase to me. That it's all so jumbled together with phone numbers and words running into other numbers and words tells me that this was done at a time when her mind was starting to leave her, once again putting the helpfulness of any of it in doubt.
4. I'd like to know what her interests were. Yes, people can hide their past but nobody has a strong enough mind to cover up everything. Did she root for any professional teams? What kind of music did she like? She may have had no accent but certain words are particular to certain areas of the USA. Soda or pop? Hoagie or sub? Where I'm originally from, people used the term "red up" to mean "make a room neat." Did her husband notice she had some talents for which there was no explanation? Gardening? Painting? A musical instrument? What kind of food did she like to cook? All of these things can tell A LOT about a person because they are so subconscious that we don't even think about them. LEK would've been the same way.
5. One peculiar thing is how her teeth got so separated as she got older. My eyes tell me she had braces as a kid or had some extensive cosmetic dental work done before she became Becky Sue Turner in 1988. And her teeth were pretty good for a long time. Then that one picture with the hat . . . her teeth are separated as if she never had straight teeth at all. I'm wondering if there is some disease that would cause that. Me? I never had braces or work done and my teeth have remained the same way for the last 30 years. Not LEK's. Is there some nationality or ethnicity that is more susceptible to some kind of disease that changes the configuration of a person's jaw? Is there a genetic makeup that's more prone to that? That might also be helpful in narrowing done her nationality. Also, maybe someone should pony up a couple bucks for her DNA to be traced to find out what her ancestry is. Has that been done yet?
6. As far as her losing her mind, I've convinced myself that happened because a person can only keep secrets for so long before the wiring starts going bad. Thus, I don't believe she's some kind of escaped insane asylum patient.
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