Found Deceased TX - Michael Chambers, 70, Hunt County, 10 March 2017 #7

[Pipsissiway_Potts]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's in the lake. In fact I would be surprised if he's not.

You could be right, Flute4peace. I thought about it a bit, and my gut feeling (which admittedly is just a guess and could be completely wrong) is based on the assumption that he went into the lake from the bridge and that jumping into the lake voluntarily is a lot quicker than dumping a body into the lake. If MC was dumped into the lake, then the perpetrators would've taken a huge risk of being seen by a passing motorist. Not knowing the area, I don't know how heavily traveled this bridge is. I'm assuming it's a major thoroughfare and even during the wee hours of the night, there's always someone coming through every twenty minutes at the very least. Now instead, he could've been dumped from a dock landing or from the shore. That of course would involve either trespassing or owning the property. I wonder if there's any public/park property along the shore front? That would make dumping a body a little easier.

This is assuming, of course, that his body would've been dumped in the wee hours of the night, and not say, during daylight hours.

Now if he did indeed commit suicide, and jumped into the lake, it would've been over quickly and and probably wouldn't have been seen if that was his intention. I don't believe he committed suicide, but that could be entirely wrong.

Flute4peace, do you have an opinion whether he committed suicide, was murdered, or just walked away from his life? Not to put you on the spot!

 

[flute4peace]

You could be right, Flute4peace. I thought about it a bit, and my gut feeling (which admittedly is just a guess and could be completely wrong) is based on the assumption that he went into the lake from the bridge and that jumping into the lake voluntarily is a lot quicker than dumping a body into the lake. If MC was dumped into the lake, then the perpetrators would've taken a huge risk of being seen by a passing motorist. Not knowing the area, I don't know how heavily traveled this bridge is. I'm assuming it's a major thoroughfare and even during the wee hours of the night, there's always someone coming through every twenty minutes at the very least. Now instead, he could've been dumped from a dock landing or from the shore. That of course would involve either trespassing or owning the property. I wonder if there's any public/park property along the shore front? That would make dumping a body a little easier.

This is assuming, of course, that his body would've been dumped in the wee hours of the night, and not say, during daylight hours.

Now if he did indeed commit suicide, and jumped into the lake, it would've been over quickly and and probably wouldn't have been seen if that was his intention. I don't believe he committed suicide, but that could be entirely wrong.

Flute4peace, do you have an opinion whether he committed suicide, was murdered, or just walked away from his life? Not to put you on the spot!

Not feeling put on the spot lol - I realized I didn't clarify. I do NOT think he put himself into the lake.

 

[ocgrad]

SM said there were "some things that had happened that would cause MC to commit suicide" but they were unable to disclose it at this time because it was an ongoing investigation. Maybe just me, but very odd wording. It could be anything from MC committing a heinous crime (which I DO NOT believe) or his wife or a member of his immediate family, that would bring shame and prison time. It seems improbable that his wife's infidelities alone would CAUSE him to commit suicide.

Perhaps the story was that she was filing for divorce. Or maybe had something to do with the DROP, lump sum payments had been frozen, maybe there was a story of a plan he had for the lump sum to realize a long held dream retirement and it looked like that was impossible. Or maybe something like, he found a lump, had not gone to a Dr but was convinced it was cancer. Or she admitted to stealing drugs and said she was providing anti depressants to him (this story may have been her cover for failing the poly).
Just speculating. He's not here to refute any of these.
SM takes a story at face value because he has no reason to suspect an ulterior motive, but Klein knows of more affairs believes there is a bad motive in it. The story is suspect unless backed up by independent accounts, a long time family Dr, friends, a note in his handwriting, etc. But then what if the Dr is your special friend, someone who even writes a prescription for you? Or if the friend is your long time friend who "is on your side"? Text messages can be faked, a scene can be staged. It sounded like Klein did try to confirm the story of depression but couldn't.

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

I hope that when MC is found, they are able to determine what happened. The speculation is rampant (though not baseless, don't get me wrong) and possibilities abound. I hope MC gets the last word, so to speak...

 

[Razz]

SM said there were "some things that had happened that would cause MC to commit suicide" but they were unable to disclose it at this time because it was an ongoing investigation. Maybe just me, but very odd wording. It could be anything from MC committing a heinous crime (which I DO NOT believe) or his wife or a member of his immediate family, that would bring shame and prison time. It seems improbable that his wife's infidelities alone would CAUSE him to commit suicide.

I think SM has been very anxious to "solve" this dilemma easily and with as little mess as possible. I can understand to a certain extent. Many eyes are on him and it's uncomfortable for him. Maybe it's a lot easier to blame MC for his own "demise" (suicide) than it is to find something sinister in those still living. And the longer this goes on, the ansier he gets. This case will make or break his legacy and he's due to retire soon. Answers that appear to be the right ones are easy to grasp onto and explain. But the more I think about MC riding his bike to commit suicide is....lunancy. But it sure made sense for about 30 minutes. And now hinting that there is evidence suggesting MC was depressed doesn't make sense unless MC's Dr. said something to that effect or maybe someone close to him. (And I'm no longer including BC as a reliable source.) Why does his daughter continue to believe he didn't commit suicide? And I can't really say about the other family members and how
they feel as no one is talking. All of the above is why SM needs to let go of the reins. And I think for his sake and especially for MC's sake it would be a wise move on his part. In fact, if he were to do so, I'd hold him in higher regard.

 

[Tripod]

I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I seem to recall missing people who had been searched for, and extensively, and still turning up within the search grid weeks, months and years later. As extensive as the search in the lake might've been, it would not surprise me much if his body was found there sometime down the road. He may have been weighted down. His body may be caught under debris. Does anyone know how much debris and trash is in the lake? I'm sure that's already been covered somewhere up thread, so my apologies in advance. Still, my gut feeling is that he is NOT in the lake, but his phone is.

As far as the slow speed the phone traveled...I'd like to hear more about the science behind how the phone expert determined this. The DISAPPEARED episode said the speed was not determined by the pings of the cell towers. So how was it done?

Oh my goodness, yes! There have been quite a few missing people found in areas that have been thoroughly searched. Sometimes it's just luck of the draw and most places can't be blanketed 100%.

If he is in the lake, he would have had to have been weighted down. It's probably impossible to search that lake with a fine-tooth comb. The other thing is, though, that it'd be pretty difficult and extremely risky to hide a body in broad daylight, so that makes me think he was taken farther away to a secluded area. Either that, or some other means of "disappearing" was used

 

[Tripod]

I'm not sure if the DROP is or isn't liquid. The way it is set up, it can be taken in one lump sum. But with the shortfall in the city of Dallas management of the account and restructure I am not sure if that option is available currently. I have felt she may have been anxious to change the way the account was set up, in monthly or bi-annual or lump sum distribution and that was part of the urgency to have him declared dead. But not sure if she did get anything different and may just be taking monthly payments. It is interesting that just when he was to begin taking distributions he disappeared.
Then there is the box in the shop. I wonder if there was a safe in shop and the box was in it?
Maybe there have been other searches, in other places and we just have not heard. I hope so. But I believe they will have to uncover cellular, internet and financial records in order to find the right location to search or to be led to his body. I am counting on those mistakes.

If the DROP is anything like an IRA or 401K, if a lump sum were taken, massive income taxes would take a chunk of it. I don't know.

We don't know how much was in the box in the shop, but it surely sounded like a lot of money. I question why MC would have that much cash that wasn't invested or in a safer place? I still have a gut feeling BC didn't know about that box. No one is saying much about it, to be sure!

 

[ocgrad]

If the DROP is anything like an IRA or 401K, if a lump sum were taken, massive income taxes would take a chunk of it. I don't know.

We don't know how much was in the box in the shop, but it surely sounded like a lot of money. I question why MC would have that much cash that wasn't invested or in a safer place? I still have a gut feeling BC didn't know about that box. No one is saying much about it, to be sure!

You're right about taxes. I read in the Employee Handbook that details the DROP the IRS takes a mandatory 20%. Plus I don't think MC had some future plan for a lump sum, he seemed to have everything he wanted there.

I have so many thoughts and questions about the box. How did Klein know? Did HCSO know? Was there an investigation in the shop by HCSO where they would have searched and found the box while looking for other evidence? Like were they looking for other blood evidence, an actual murder or accident scene? That seems plausible to me, something they should have done but if so I imagine the box would have been hidden, not where they would have looked for evidence, but maybe not if he had just brought it there. Did he have to hide money from her to keep her from spending or gambling? If she didn't know it was there and his daughter and SIL didn't know, did one of his sons? Or did he trust a car buddy with that info? I guess in the days that followed maybe HCSO went through the whole shop looking for clues. It is fairly common for people that age to have a stash of cash and maybe weapons and personal items and they would have wanted to find his stash for clues to his disappearance.

Still, the other option is that she did know it was there and she wanted it. Maybe it had previously been kept in a safe deposit box and he moved it to hide it from her. Maybe that happened earlier in the week or 2 before and she knew it was somewhere at the shop so she had him leave the house so she could send someone there to find it.

It's funny the way Klein lobbed that out there. Just like he did about her boyfriends. He stated it like it was common knowledge. It may have been with the family but he knew it was a bombshell to everyone else.

There is a specific paragraph in the Employee Handbook regarding the DROP that says, the beneficiary is not eligible if that person is the principle or accomplice in bringing about the death of the DROP participant.

 

[Razz]

Oh my goodness, yes! There have been quite a few missing people found in areas that have been thoroughly searched. Sometimes it's just luck of the draw and most places can't be blanketed 100%.

If he is in the lake, he would have had to have been weighted down. It's probably impossible to search that lake with a fine-tooth comb. The other thing is, though, that it'd be pretty difficult and extremely risky to hide a body in broad daylight, so that makes me think he was taken farther away to a secluded area. Either that, or some other means of "disappearing" was used

Klein mentioned near the end of his interview that he thought he was taken up in the hills and put there. Are there hills around Greenville?

 

[cooksheila]

Because this case is driving me crazy I decided to Google staging your own suicide. Weird, yes I know. Very first link popped up had 10 cases, only two here in the United States listed. The #1 entry from a case last year actually, right here in Texas, April 25, 2017. It involved a Austin cop, that staged his fake suicide, it also had a lake involved and a bike. While reading this and realizing this all unfolded 5-6 weeks after MC disappeared I wondered if this is what set SM on his theory or maybe someone else who had heard this theory. I will attach a link to the story below. Anyway there were not many staged suicides period. I actually went on Wiki How to fake your own death too. There were so many things MC did wrong if you go by their directions. He should have left a note, he should have not taken his ID, he should have taken cash and so on. In no way am I suggesting MC committed suicide just trying to figure out how LE got to this. Trying to figure out why so many family go to this. I do not believe he committed suicide
Police union pres.: APD mood went from sadness to anger over missing officer

 

[creepcrusher]

I don't think SM is saying he staged a suicide. He is saying he staged a crime scene, like an abduction and then went and committed suicide. It is ridiculous. If MC actually did stage the workshop it's more believable that he would do it to start a new life. Not to run off and commit suicide.

 

[Tripod]

Klein mentioned near the end of his interview that he thought he was taken up in the hills and put there. Are there hills around Greenville?

I always think of the famous "hill country" in Texas. I think New Braunfels is in hill country? Never been there, but I think I'd like it! I have no idea where hill country is in relationship to Greenville/Quinlan area.

 

[Tripod]

You're right about taxes. I read in the Employee Handbook that details the DROP the IRS takes a mandatory 20%. Plus I don't think MC had some future plan for a lump sum, he seemed to have everything he wanted there.

I have so many thoughts and questions about the box. How did Klein know? Did HCSO know? Was there an investigation in the shop by HCSO where they would have searched and found the box while looking for other evidence? Like were they looking for other blood evidence, an actual murder or accident scene? That seems plausible to me, something they should have done but if so I imagine the box would have been hidden, not where they would have looked for evidence, but maybe not if he had just brought it there. Did he have to hide money from her to keep her from spending or gambling? If she didn't know it was there and his daughter and SIL didn't know, did one of his sons? Or did he trust a car buddy with that info? I guess in the days that followed maybe HCSO went through the whole shop looking for clues. It is fairly common for people that age to have a stash of cash and maybe weapons and personal items and they would have wanted to find his stash for clues to his disappearance.

Still, the other option is that she did know it was there and she wanted it. Maybe it had previously been kept in a safe deposit box and he moved it to hide it from her. Maybe that happened earlier in the week or 2 before and she knew it was somewhere at the shop so she had him leave the house so she could send someone there to find it.

It's funny the way Klein lobbed that out there. Just like he did about her boyfriends. He stated it like it was common knowledge. It may have been with the family but he knew it was a bombshell to everyone else.

There is a specific paragraph in the Employee Handbook regarding the DROP that says, the beneficiary is not eligible if that person is the principle or accomplice in bringing about the death of the DROP participant.

Those are all possibilities, OC. Good thinking, and also thanks for finding the info from the employee handbook.

I've wondered if the box of cash in the shop was for and from classic cars and maybe parts being bought and sold, or if it was just cash MC squirreled away over a period of years, or, as you said, possibly from an account or safe deposit box that he more recently taken money from, to keep it from BC.

Any looking into financial records of MC would have shown up monies withdrawn from an account, or an account being closed.

Gut feeling is more family and friends( if any) did NOT know about the money, than did. I suppose BC could have known, but I still don't think so.

As to how Klein knew about the cash box? I've wondered when it was found but assumed it was found after searching around the shop initially, by police and family.

 

[ocgrad]

I always think of the famous "hill country" in Texas. I think New Braunfels is in hill country? Never been there, but I think I'd like it! I have no idea where hill country is in relationship to Greenville/Quinlan area.

He said up in those hills. I believe he was referring to eastern Oklahoma.
ETA: You would like it! It's beautiful small towns with friendly people and good food.

 

[ocgrad]

Those are all possibilities, OC. Good thinking, and also thanks for finding the info from the employee handbook.

I've wondered if the box of cash in the shop was for and from classic cars and maybe parts being bought and sold, or if it was just cash MC squirreled away over a period of years, or, as you said, possibly from an account or safe deposit box that he more recently taken money from, to keep it from BC.

Any looking into financial records of MC would have shown up monies withdrawn from an account, or an account being closed.

Gut feeling is more family and friends( if any) did NOT know about the money, than did. I suppose BC could have known, but I still don't think so.

As to how Klein knew about the cash box? I've wondered when it was found but assumed it was found after searching around the shop initially, by police and family.

As meticulous as he was I don't see him keeping a large amount of cash in a box unless that box was inside a safe and it seems like Klein might have stated it differently if so. If he had closed an account he would have only had to bring home and hide a check. Well, unless it was an account he used regularly in which case he could have taken the money in cash I guess. It would be obvious to investigators if it came from the bank or was saved.

 

[ocgrad]

Because this case is driving me crazy I decided to Google staging your own suicide. Weird, yes I know. Very first link popped up had 10 cases, only two here in the United States listed. The #1 entry from a case last year actually, right here in Texas, April 25, 2017. It involved a Austin cop, that staged his fake suicide, it also had a lake involved and a bike. While reading this and realizing this all unfolded 5-6 weeks after MC disappeared I wondered if this is what set SM on his theory or maybe someone else who had heard this theory. I will attach a link to the story below. Anyway there were not many staged suicides period. I actually went on Wiki How to fake your own death too. There were so many things MC did wrong if you go by their directions. He should have left a note, he should have not taken his ID, he should have taken cash and so on. In no way am I suggesting MC committed suicide just trying to figure out how LE got to this. Trying to figure out why so many family go to this. I do not believe he committed suicide
Police union pres.: APD mood went from sadness to anger over missing officer

Interesting article regarding Austin cop, I live in TX and never heard about it.
As Crusher said, SM theory was he faked a crime scene to cover an actual suicide. I too googled and I couldn't come up with any that fit that scenario. Plenty of faked suicides to cover murder or faked disappearances to cover murder. In fact I saw some articles that point to an increase in faked crime scenes as we all become more aware through CSI shows and books. I thought this was an interesting article.
The Seven Major Mistakes in Suicide Investigation

 

[Pipsissiway_Potts]

What Oklahoma hills does PK mean? Does he mean hills or mountains? A quick GOOGLE search revealed "The mountains in Oklahoma include the Arbuckle Mountains, the Oklahoma Ouachita Mountains, the Wichita Mountains, and the Oklahoma Ozarks." Unless PK really does mean hills, in which case I have no idea.

Oklahoma Mountains - Ozark Mountains in Oklahoma

 

[ocgrad]

What Oklahoma hills does PK mean? Does he mean hills or mountains? A quick GOOGLE search revealed "The mountains in Oklahoma include the Arbuckle Mountains, the Oklahoma Ouachita Mountains, the Wichita Mountains, and the Oklahoma Ozarks." Unless PK really does mean hills, in which case I have no idea.

Oklahoma Mountains - Ozark Mountains in Oklahoma

It depends on where someone is from, their frame of reference. Most people who have seen mountains would not call those in OK mountains. Maybe the Ouchitas would be considered small mountains in the southeast corner of the state. It is hard for anyone who sees the mountains of OK to think of them as more than hills. I checked and found the Arbuckle elevation is 1411, Wichitas 2480, Ouchitas 2753.
North of I-40, eastern OK near the Arkansas border is hilly. It could be correctly described as the foothills of the Ozarks as it gets more and more hilly the farther east you go into Arkansas. For reference, the towns of Grove, Jay, Spavinaw, Talequah, Stilwell. This is the region where BC's family lives.
The Ouachita area is closer to TX, just across the border, rocky and wooded. South of I-40 the towns are very small, Poteau, Wilburton, Talahina, Broken Bow.
The Arbuckles are near Davis. The Wichitas are near Lawton. And there are the Osage Hills north of Tulsa. So OK has a lot of hills and hilly areas. If Klein had said they took him up in the mountains, I for sure would not have thought of OK.

 

[Pipsissiway_Potts]

Very helpful post, thank you, OCGRAD

I found this informative webpage regarding calling something a hill vs a mountain:
What's the Difference Between a Hill and a Mountain?

 

[flute4peace]

It depends on where someone is from, their frame of reference. Most people who have seen mountains would not call those in OK mountains. Maybe the Ouchitas would be considered small mountains in the southeast corner of the state. It is hard for anyone who sees the mountains of OK to think of them as more than hills. I checked and found the Arbuckle elevation is 1411, Wichitas 2480, Ouchitas 2753.
North of I-40, eastern OK near the Arkansas border is hilly. It could be correctly described as the foothills of the Ozarks as it gets more and more hilly the farther east you go into Arkansas. For reference, the towns of Grove, Jay, Spavinaw, Talequah, Stilwell. This is the region where BC's family lives.
The Ouachita area is closer to TX, just across the border, rocky and wooded. South of I-40 the towns are very small, Poteau, Wilburton, Talahina, Broken Bow.
The Arbuckles are near Davis. The Wichitas are near Lawton. And there are the Osage Hills north of Tulsa. So OK has a lot of hills and hilly areas. If Klein had said they took him up in the mountains, I for sure would not have thought of OK.

Well that's certainly interesting...