TX - Moriah Wilson, 25, Cyclist Fatally Shot Before Race, Austin, 2022 *arrest* #8
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arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
@alcaprari23
Defense has no more questions. Passes witness. Judge calls for a 30 minute lunch recess.
3:08 PM · Nov 15, 2023
Defense has no more questions. Passes witness. Judge calls for a 30 minute lunch recess.
3:08 PM · Nov 15, 2023
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
Note: Lunch is 30 minutes only!
That's what I'm wondering...surely he must have, OTOH if he did, Imo it wouldn't have been provable (bullets and gun not matching Moo )- so perhaps D kept report out of evidence (if there is/was one).
ETA: No report it seems - so all this witness did was state a general possibility, not a probability? (just like dna witness) and provided no opinion on KA's gun and bullets from crime scene. Moo
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
Next witness: William Tobin, an expert on Firearms/Toolmarks. He would appear virtually, but the judge is unclear how she will swear him in. These are logistics that have not been solved yet and for this reason, the jury is being dismissed for another 10 minutes. Kaitlin Armstrong has been excused.
Defense Attorney Puryear is explaining to the Judge how the logistics will work. Tobin will appear via Zoom on the monitors in front of the jury. A demonstrative PowerPoint will play on a big screen TV to the courtroom. A courtroom administrator is being called in to help the judge understand the logistics. Feels like all this should have been figured out much earlier today.
It seems we are set. The jury is being brought back into the courtroom. Armstrong has taken her seat. On the Zoom we have Bill Tobin in the top left corner, the courtroom on the top right, the defense attorneys on the bottom right and an unseen court administrator bottom left.
Tobin is sworn in. Defense begins questioning.Tobin is a forensic material scientist. Tobin has experience working organized crime and police corruption in Chicago. He transferred to the FBI and conducted tool mark investigations for the feds.
Tobin has experience challenging findings and research that had long been supported in the forensic community. He mentions several of his own published articles that led to debunked theories in forensic investigations.
Q: "When you challenge certain aspects of certain bullet and lead examiner, were you a certified bullet and lead investigator?"
A: "No, I was not a certified bullet & lead examiner." But he has conducted bullet and lead examinations that led to exculpatory evidence and findings
Tobin says that the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners (AFTE) is a trade organization but is not a scientific association. He doesn't have the time nor inclination to join AFTE since it would not be a scientific pursuit.
Tobin discussing AFTE standards for peer review, which he calls "terrible." A better standard, Tobin says, is refereeing, which requires at least three other sources to look at the findings with the names of the examiners redacted. It is a blind process.
For AFTE, there is a very limited number of study experiments/authors submitting writing papers. Tobin calls those standards very insular and not very blinded.
Tobin has testified in 303 criminal proceedings in 46 states + Puerto Rico. He has also testified twice in front of Congress on scientific reliability and his opinion on an ill-fated air-flight disaster over Long Island.
Tobin will now begin to give a PowerPoint presentation with defense leading.Defines "Tribology" as it relates to guns: Metals in contact with other metals, including interactions between firing pin, bullet, barrel, etc.
A lot of ballistic jargon being thrown around, but I'll do my best to summarize to my understanding. Tobin is defining striations: essentially marks left behind when a gun is fired. For what it's worth, the court reporter also looks confused by these big words!
Defines sub-class characteristics as inadvertent or coincidental manufacturing defects or impressions on a firearm that weren't originally intended by the gun maker.
Tobin says that gun manufacturers are striving for uniformity among their weapons, but almost certainly are tool marks inadvertently left behind.
Tobin says the scientific method is necessary to build a strong hypotheses and conclusion: Prediction, Experiment, Observation and Theory (PEOT). Repeatability is one of the cornerstones of the scientific method, although Tobin says it doesn't necessary apply to ballistics.
Tobin says there is no scientific accepted protocol for firearms and tool mark examinations because there is no protocol that specifies the parameters of detection. Recall that the defense continued to emphasize with the last ballistic expert that he was giving his subjective opinion when saying that the spent shell casings found at the crime scene were "in agreement" with the test firings from Armstrong's gun.
Tobin says that terms like "sufficient agreement," as used in the AFTE theory, are some of the most "flawed, worthless statements and claims."Tobin says AFTE theory cannot be called protocol, only guidelines. It is so imbued with fallacies of presumption, Tobin says. He calls the AFTE terminology "vague, vacuous and uninterpretable."
A good metaphor about the vagueness of AFTE terminology from Tobin: It would be like giving someone a recipe to bake a cake but only telling them that you need sufficient ingredients for a sufficient amount of time at a sufficient temperature. If you do that sufficiently, you will bake a cake.
Alex note: Doesn't look like this witness is really having an impact on the jury. One woman leans back in her chair and closes her eyes. Another guy shifts in his seat and stares out at the gallery, taking his focus off the screens.It's not just that the presentation is filled with technical terms. I think the fact that Tobin is appearing virtually is less appealing for a jury to listen to. Some people in the gallery are taking naps, doing crossword puzzles, reading.
Tobin says firearms identification is not a science. It is devoid of six cornerstones of the scientific method and is 100% subjective.
Tobin says there are a number of examples where examiners mistake sub-class characteristics and impressions. Other studies found more characteristics in agreement in sources that came from firearms that were known not to be used. Meaning examiners found agreement from spent shell casings that were never fired from a gun that's being studied.
Defense going through a number of studies that debunk theory on firearm and tool mark examinations. Several friends and family of Mo Wilson have left the courtroom.
Tobin showing magnified images of spent shell casings which appear to be in total agreement, but Tobin says they came from completely different guns.
Defense has no more questions. Passes witness. Judge calls for a 30 minute lunch recess.
Defense Attorney Puryear is explaining to the Judge how the logistics will work. Tobin will appear via Zoom on the monitors in front of the jury. A demonstrative PowerPoint will play on a big screen TV to the courtroom. A courtroom administrator is being called in to help the judge understand the logistics. Feels like all this should have been figured out much earlier today.
It seems we are set. The jury is being brought back into the courtroom. Armstrong has taken her seat. On the Zoom we have Bill Tobin in the top left corner, the courtroom on the top right, the defense attorneys on the bottom right and an unseen court administrator bottom left.
Tobin is sworn in. Defense begins questioning.Tobin is a forensic material scientist. Tobin has experience working organized crime and police corruption in Chicago. He transferred to the FBI and conducted tool mark investigations for the feds.
Tobin has experience challenging findings and research that had long been supported in the forensic community. He mentions several of his own published articles that led to debunked theories in forensic investigations.
Q: "When you challenge certain aspects of certain bullet and lead examiner, were you a certified bullet and lead investigator?"
A: "No, I was not a certified bullet & lead examiner." But he has conducted bullet and lead examinations that led to exculpatory evidence and findings
Tobin says that the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners (AFTE) is a trade organization but is not a scientific association. He doesn't have the time nor inclination to join AFTE since it would not be a scientific pursuit.
Tobin discussing AFTE standards for peer review, which he calls "terrible." A better standard, Tobin says, is refereeing, which requires at least three other sources to look at the findings with the names of the examiners redacted. It is a blind process.
For AFTE, there is a very limited number of study experiments/authors submitting writing papers. Tobin calls those standards very insular and not very blinded.
Tobin has testified in 303 criminal proceedings in 46 states + Puerto Rico. He has also testified twice in front of Congress on scientific reliability and his opinion on an ill-fated air-flight disaster over Long Island.
Tobin will now begin to give a PowerPoint presentation with defense leading.Defines "Tribology" as it relates to guns: Metals in contact with other metals, including interactions between firing pin, bullet, barrel, etc.
A lot of ballistic jargon being thrown around, but I'll do my best to summarize to my understanding. Tobin is defining striations: essentially marks left behind when a gun is fired. For what it's worth, the court reporter also looks confused by these big words!
Defines sub-class characteristics as inadvertent or coincidental manufacturing defects or impressions on a firearm that weren't originally intended by the gun maker.
Tobin says that gun manufacturers are striving for uniformity among their weapons, but almost certainly are tool marks inadvertently left behind.
Tobin says the scientific method is necessary to build a strong hypotheses and conclusion: Prediction, Experiment, Observation and Theory (PEOT). Repeatability is one of the cornerstones of the scientific method, although Tobin says it doesn't necessary apply to ballistics.
Tobin says there is no scientific accepted protocol for firearms and tool mark examinations because there is no protocol that specifies the parameters of detection. Recall that the defense continued to emphasize with the last ballistic expert that he was giving his subjective opinion when saying that the spent shell casings found at the crime scene were "in agreement" with the test firings from Armstrong's gun.
Tobin says that terms like "sufficient agreement," as used in the AFTE theory, are some of the most "flawed, worthless statements and claims."Tobin says AFTE theory cannot be called protocol, only guidelines. It is so imbued with fallacies of presumption, Tobin says. He calls the AFTE terminology "vague, vacuous and uninterpretable."
A good metaphor about the vagueness of AFTE terminology from Tobin: It would be like giving someone a recipe to bake a cake but only telling them that you need sufficient ingredients for a sufficient amount of time at a sufficient temperature. If you do that sufficiently, you will bake a cake.
Alex note: Doesn't look like this witness is really having an impact on the jury. One woman leans back in her chair and closes her eyes. Another guy shifts in his seat and stares out at the gallery, taking his focus off the screens.It's not just that the presentation is filled with technical terms. I think the fact that Tobin is appearing virtually is less appealing for a jury to listen to. Some people in the gallery are taking naps, doing crossword puzzles, reading.
Tobin says firearms identification is not a science. It is devoid of six cornerstones of the scientific method and is 100% subjective.
Tobin says there are a number of examples where examiners mistake sub-class characteristics and impressions. Other studies found more characteristics in agreement in sources that came from firearms that were known not to be used. Meaning examiners found agreement from spent shell casings that were never fired from a gun that's being studied.
Defense going through a number of studies that debunk theory on firearm and tool mark examinations. Several friends and family of Mo Wilson have left the courtroom.
Tobin showing magnified images of spent shell casings which appear to be in total agreement, but Tobin says they came from completely different guns.
Defense has no more questions. Passes witness. Judge calls for a 30 minute lunch recess.
SteveP
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They had to deal with all that and only get 30 minutes for lunch??????
I hope at the very least that they had lunch delivered for them
carolmaria
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I wonder if that indicates a wrap-up… ?
Edit: Or a Dr. Maureen Burrows appearance first?
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JusCurious
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Yes! And that!!!
Don’t think so. Prosecution hasn’t even done their cross yet. They are probably leaving his link open so they don’t go through that fiasco again.
If he had the results would have favoured the prosecution Imo.
ETA probably just too risky for the D.
JusCurious
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That's what I am thinking... hoping!
Megnut
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Something of a relief, I imagine, that taxpayers didn't have to foot an airfare bill too.
Did their expert have anything to say about the bullets in this case, relative to the weapon fired?
I'm surprised they didn't bring in a decades-long retired blood type specialist also to say nothing relevant to this crime.
Or an expert on the kind of paper used for target practice forms.
I wasn't even in the courtroom but I've never been so ready for lunchbreak.
JMO
whitelilac
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That will be the prosecution's question after lunch.
Yes or no answer only.
No.
Ok, no further questions.
There... 1 minute compared to the hours long lecture. Jury lets out an audible sigh of relief.
The D hired an expert to give an opinion about the credibility of the basic inspections, observations and comparatives employed by the State's expert. To this point in time he is not controverting the opinion of the State's expert; he's simply declaring that comparisons of this sort do not abide by the Scientific Method. This is high order hubris, applied in a discounting role.
There have been many cases where the opinion of an expert has weighed heavily in determining guilt and the basic premise of the opinion has since been challenged: Bundy and the bite impressions; Hauptmann and the matching pieces of wood; Soering/Haysom and the PhD in Forensic Podiatry.
The measure missing in all cases is the degree of certainty: and that is not an established measure except in a very few areas of forensics and even at that leads to some interesting phrases being utilized in court. The comparison of probabilities (which is in fact Odds in any other lingo) as utilized for DNA which generates numbers like 5.374 Quadrillion to one. And what is the significance of that 4? Does that mean 5.3736 or 5.3744 and in either case, who cares?
JMO and I would love to be listening in real time.....
There have been many cases where the opinion of an expert has weighed heavily in determining guilt and the basic premise of the opinion has since been challenged: Bundy and the bite impressions; Hauptmann and the matching pieces of wood; Soering/Haysom and the PhD in Forensic Podiatry.
The measure missing in all cases is the degree of certainty: and that is not an established measure except in a very few areas of forensics and even at that leads to some interesting phrases being utilized in court. The comparison of probabilities (which is in fact Odds in any other lingo) as utilized for DNA which generates numbers like 5.374 Quadrillion to one. And what is the significance of that 4? Does that mean 5.3736 or 5.3744 and in either case, who cares?
JMO and I would love to be listening in real time.....
Megnut
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I'm a little disappointed that the State failed to ask the winning question of the fingerprint expert, over pineapple acid, "if a person wore gloves, would you expect to find their fingerprints?"
But they don't need my help. KA built their case for them just fine all by herself.
Her justice is about to come.
I smell LWOP.
JMO
But they don't need my help. KA built their case for them just fine all by herself.
Her justice is about to come.
I smell LWOP.
JMO
KA has asked for the jury to determine her sentence if a guilty verdict. Don’t know how quickly that will start, but would assume the prosecution and defense has their witnesses ready for that. Jury will have to deliberate again on the sentence then.
arielilane
Justice for Liz Barraza
It can happen in this case, but I've seen it vary from court to court. It depends on judge's decision - whether you have victim's family who are from out of town (or whatever) and its more feasible to do impact stmts same day, judge's calendar availability, etc.
moo
Seattle1
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In my experience, not likely.. Defendant gets to choose whether or not the Judge will determine sentence of the Jury.
TX - Moriah Wilson, 25, Cyclist Fatally Shot Before Race, Austin, 2022 *arrest* #7
Good questions. I wonder if the verdict is guilty, will the sentencing portion start right away or if there will be a hearing set for later. In Texas, whether it by a guilty plea agreement or conviction by a jury, I've never seen the Court impose the sentence immediately. Texas seems to...
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