Found Deceased TX - PFC Vanessa Guillen, 20, Fort Hood military base, items left behind, 22 Apr 2020 *arrests* #3

[CronesEye]

MOO Focus should be to prevent unwanted behaviors, not mess around wasting energy with reports of things that should never have happened in the first place.
MOO going forward Ft. HOOD needs to be made an exemplary base.

Prevention is ideal but when not enough, reporting should be easy, efficient and effective, which right now it isn't. To go forward, both prevention and reporting are necessary. In my and others experience the glitch was in the reporting.
So, yah, a lot of work needs to be done on the reporting end.
It needs to be handled outside the command, outside the military.
Reporting inside the military only hurts the victims and protects the offender.

 

[Ninja Bunny]

Few more notes from my husband.

The Army has the SHARP program.
The Army's Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention program, known as SHARP, exists so the Army can prevent sexual harassment and sexual assaults before they occur. Our goal is to eliminate sexual assaults and sexual harassment by creating a climate that respects the dignity of every member of the Army family.

That’s good, unless the people in charge of SHARP are running a prostitution ring.

A US Army sergeant in an anti-sexual-assault program pimped female soldiers at Fort Hood

[sbm]

Something else to consider is this. Unlike normal society that has a homogeneous mix of all age groups, the military is a concentration of young adults, many away from home for the first time. Anytime you group so many immature overconfident people in one place, bad things are going to happen. Their leaders are often barely older than they are. These young adults lack access to the wisdom of older peers available in the civilian world. Most companies have few soldiers in their 30's and maybe none in their 40's. In reality I applause commanders for being able to guide these young adults as well as they do. It seems to me the per capita rate of homicides would be much higher than it is, so the military must be doing something right.

That means the military has a higher responsibility to supervise and discipline those who get out of line. That there are lt. colonels in their 50’s/60’s saying that sexual harassment is the price of admission and those who complain about it are crybaby snowflakes means the problem is top-down and systemic and well beyond just young people being young (which is no excuse anyway since teens and kids can be taught not to harass). Besides, if expectations of proper conduct are put on young people, they often rise to the occasion. The military needs to be strict about booting those that fail to behave and about getting rid of toxic officers that perpetuate the environment of abuse.

 

[jondaba]

It’s fun to say what that the Army had a duty to protect VG. But that is just your feelings talking.

Precisely what steps should the Army have taken to prevent AR, a 20 year old black man, from suddenly, without warning, secretly bludgeoning poor Vanessa to death with a hammer?

No generalizations, please.

 

[Ninja Bunny]

The army had a duty to make it a safe place to report harassment and effectively deal with it.

If someone thinks AR went from wonderful to utterly berserk and burning, dismembering, and encasing a body in cement without warning signs or escalating behavior, there’s a big gold bridge on the west coast I’d like to sell them.

 

[Ommmm]

Even senior females officers know you won't be taken seriously if you report harassment. It hurts, it doesn't help.

This makes me so sad.

 

[windrower]

Respectfully MOO, but VG never reported anything to her chain of command, so how were they supposed to know that AR was contributing to a "deviant sexual environment?" It is no different than if a woman worked at an office job. Her supervisor starts to sexually harass her. She tells a family member, but no one at work. The guy ends up cornering her alone, assaults, & kills her. Is her employer responsible for her murder? Are they liable for tolerating sexual harassment when it was never reported?

IMO, whoever locked up in the evening after VG never returned should've sounded the alarms then. If she was falsely reported as present that afternoon, that person should face consequences. However, sadly at that point VG was most likely already deceased. VG should've felt comfortable reporting the abuse. Sometimes it takes time to work up the nerve. And sadly, VG was never given a chance.

ETA spelling

The deviant sexual environment was created by the base command structure turning a blind eye to a prostitution ring run by Army personnel and a system that punished victims of sexual harassment and assault rather than the perpetrators. I wasn’t talking specifically about AR’s actions, but the atmosphere that allowed him to feel he might get away with whatever he chose to do.

IMO

 

[windrower]

It’s fun to say what that the Army had a duty to protect VG. But that is just your feelings talking.

Precisely what steps should the Army have taken to prevent AR, a 20 year old black man, from suddenly, without warning, secretly bludgeoning poor Vanessa to death with a hammer?

No generalizations, please.

The Army should stop allowing predatory behavior to run rampant.

 

[California Sunset]

I never blamed VG for anything. I never called her names, questioned her morals, accused her of any crimes or claimed she invited any negative attention. She is/was not to blame for what happened to her. She doesn't deserve her reputation to come out of this in tatters. All I had to do was see her photo and I knew that young woman was sexually harassed. I hate to break it to all of you, but if AR was sexually harassing her, he was not the only one. VG probably got harassed by several males in a week if not in a day. Trust me. I know. And it was not because of something VG did or didn't do. How do you blame a victim of sexual harassment for being attractive? The young woman was pretty. That should not be a crime.

This subject gives me nightmares. I am a female military veteran who was constantly harassed and I had also been raped by an army NCO. I thought I was fortunate to leave the scene of my rape alive. (No exaggeration). Someone said you don't expect to be killed by other personnel in the military. Why not?
Sometimes I'm concerned my comments seem ambiguous. I would not criticize Vanessa. I am the last person to criticize Vanessa.
I may have wondered why she didn't report someone, but I didn't report some of my detractors either. When I did report one case in the early days, I was being disciplined by my company commanders. He got away with everything they did to me. Until I quoted the UCMJ.

Was there really a shower incident or is that rumor? Because I know if I came out of the shower and some guy was sitting watching me I'd say WTH? and I wouldn't trust that person for one second. I think I'd raise the roof on the spot, but if a guy is bold enough to do that, he's bold enough to choke/strangle the person doing the screaming. If someone was watching VG shower, he definitely had a problem. That's beyond sexual harassment. That's voyeurism. Hmmm. They list voyeurism as a mental/perversion* kind of thing. (*internet search of the definition of voyeurism. Several sites.)

I missed a week of the thread as it occurred. I had to take a break. I returned to the thread after her remains were found but AR was already dead. I had held out a small bit of hope that she took off and hid because she felt threatened by someone to the point she felt she could only be safe if she was out of there.

I have been upset with all the comments calling the investigation 'sloppy'. We knew nothing of the investigation as it was ongoing. I know the investigators can't release details of the investigation. It's necessary. They cannot give out certain information to the family.

Someone asked me for a source to what I posted in this thread, I started to do a search to locate the source but wasn't able to get very far. I had to leave the site and didn't get back to it right away. When I did start a search again, I was unable to locate the post requesting the source, and I wasn't able to locate the information. I regret I was unable to respond to the request nor do I know who the member was requesting it. Whatever I said I had a source, whether it was a previous post, a link, something from MSM, or what I call 'a reliable website'. I do not post rumors. When I post things, I research them first.
Some of you were really nice, when someone asked me for a source on a different post, several of you responded before I could get back to the person, thank you so much, I really appreciated that.

BTW. Did anyone figure out the results of the case before they were announced? There was some misinformation distributed early on, and I wonder about that now. Why?

 

[California Sunset]

It’s fun to say what that the Army had a duty to protect VG. But that is just your feelings talking.

Precisely what steps should the Army have taken to prevent AR, a 20 year old black man, from suddenly, without warning, secretly bludgeoning poor Vanessa to death with a hammer?

No generalizations, please.

Tell me please. Are you military? Have anyone in the military? The army did have a duty to protect VG. That's not 'feelings' that is a fact. She had every right to expect someone not to do this. Unfortunately, her rights were violated. From what I'm reading on here now, this didn't happen 'suddenly, without warning', he exhibited signs of unaccepted behavior prior to this. You demanding an answer on here is, to me, ridiculous. IMHO, of course.
Ask the army what steps they could have taken. They used to have, (do they still have it?) a mandatory Human Relations/Equal Opportunities briefing where they discuss acceptable, reasonable behavior vs. the opposite of that. A lot of interesting information came to light about my duty station when I took that course during in-processing. I walked out of that class and promptly had several males yell obscenities and immoral comments at me.

 

[California Sunset]

The deviant sexual environment was created by the base command structure turning a blind eye to a prostitution ring run by Army personnel and a system that punished victims of sexual harassment and assault rather than the perpetrators. I wasn’t talking specifically about AR’s actions, but the atmosphere that allowed him to feel he might get away with whatever he chose to do.

IMO

But seriously, do you honestly believe AR didn't harass or abuse any other females prior to what took place with VG?

 

[oviedo]

The first step to fixing the problem is acknowledging you have one - the Army has not ....
JMO

 

[Cryptic]

If someone thinks AR went from wonderful to utterly berserk and burning, dismembering, and encasing a body in cement without warning signs or escalating behavior, there’s a big gold bridge on the west coast I’d like to sell them.

Sure, AR might not have been a pleasant person. But.... the majority of un pleasant people never physically harm anyone, let alone commit murder.

At the end of the day, extremely violent human behavior is very hard to predict. Sometimes there are obvious high red flags. On other occasions, however, the flags are low and yellow.

For example, the person is shallow, controlling, does not like being told "no", and thinks that women exist primarily for one purpose. Maybe even combines all of that with a steady interest in *advertiser censored*.

We have all known people that have one, or all of those characteristics, yet how many have murdered a co worker? Taking pre-emptive action based on what a person "might" do is hard- even in a military environment.

My guess is that any flags need to large, high and red. Yellow or greenish yellow flags like:

"Well, he combines a type A personality with what I feel is a shallow, self centered personality. Oh, and I also have an impression that he expects women to be submissive and on demand sexually 24/7" simply can't support pre-emptive action.

 

[Curiosity1234]

My younger cousin always wanted to be in the military and after getting through some very tough teenage years she finally accomplished her dream. She was stationed at Fort Hood and was really excelling in her career and was the happiest she’d ever been. She was being sexually harassed by another soldier but didn’t want to say anything. One night while walking in a remote area of the base she was cornered by the soldier who was harassing her and two others and was held down and raped by all three. She was terrified but reported it the next day to her superiors, showing them her bruises and ripped clothes from the night before. You know what happened? She was quickly deemed mentally unstable and discharged, no investigation, nothing. She came home a broken person and has never fully recovered to this day. The violence that Vanessa and my cousin endured is not something new in the military nor is how it was handled. My heart goes out to her family, I can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling right now.

Not easy to choose "like" for your thread. I am sorry to hear about what your cousin went through especially since she excelled and accomplished her dream of being in the military only to be deemed unstable and then discharged for reporting such an atrocity. Even with torn clothing and bruises as proof, the military choose to look the other way and expected your cousin to suck it up and carry on. Terrible way to treat someone who has been traumatized.

 

[Ninja Bunny]

Sure, AR might not have been a pleasant person. But.... the majority of un pleasant people never physically harm anyone, let alone commit murder.

At the end of the day, extremely violent human behavior is very hard to predict. Sometimes there are obvious high red flags. On other occasions, however, the flags are low and yellow.

For example, the person is shallow, controlling, does not like being told "no", and thinks that women exist primarily for one purpose. Maybe even combines all of that with a steady interest in *advertiser censored*.

We have all known people that have one, or all of those characteristics, yet how many have murdered a co worker? Taking pre-emptive action based on what a person "might" do is hard- even in a military environment.

My guess is that any flags need to large, high and red. Yellow or greenish yellow flags like:

"Well, he combines a type A personality with what I feel is a shallow, self centered personality. Oh, and I also have an impression that he expects women to be submissive and on demand sexually 24/7" simply can't support pre-emptive action.

Not sure how social media info is restricted for a dead suspect, but it’s out there (and not hard to find) that the people who knew him in school and while growing up had a lot to say about him. They report he had a history of harassment and physically violent outbursts that goes back years.

 

[cvaldez1975]

Harassment shouldn’t happen to anyone but there’s a power imbalance between males and females, and there’s also a culture which permits misogyny and sexist attitudes on top of that. Does it happen to males too? Yes, but person(s) doing the harassment will most often be male too regardless of sex of the victim. Most females will be unable to physically defend themselves against most males. That’s just a fact, and it affects how these things play out.

there’s nothing to be gained from saying “oh it’s just a thing that happens”. If there’s a culture of sexually improper behaviour you’re going to get situations in which ordinarily minor incidents (comparatively speaking) will become something much worse. The leadership and management have some control over that. They need to take claims seriously and dish out meaningful punishments. There needs to be consequences. Sounds like Fort Hood leadership needs to be physically dragged out of the dark ages and forced to confront the problems they have. For Vanessa and for every other individual on base that can’t just get on with their work and their lives because of toxic and frightening behaviours.

bravo!!!

 

[K9Enzo]

Even senior females officers know you won't be taken seriously if you report harassment. It hurts, it doesn't help.

I would caution against making a sweeping statement like this and speaking for all senior female officers.

You certainly can't speak for the wonderful, insanely skilled and deeply missed Capt. Jennifer Moreno who was KIA with several elite Army Ranger soldiers. Survivors of that mission mourn her just as they do the men lost in that unit that day. This thread is kind of taking a nose dive. IMO

Madigan remembers fallen Soldier 5 years later

 

[Ninja Bunny]

I would caution against making a sweeping statement like this and speaking for all senior female officers.

You certainly can't speak for the wonderful, insanely skilled and deeply missed Capt. Jennifer Moreno who was KIA with several elite Army Ranger soldiers. Survivors of that mission mourn her just as they do the men lost in that unit that day. This thread is kind of taking a nose dive. IMO

Madigan remembers fallen Soldier 5 years later

The statement was appropriate. The lowest female enlisted all the way up to the top female officers in all branches know harassment exists and is a serious problem, women coming out in droves to post their experiences (#IAmVanessaGuillen) proves that. Posting a memorial to one captain doesn’t negate it or make it less of a problem.

 

[jondaba]

"From what I'm reading on here now, this didn't happen 'suddenly, without warning', he exhibited signs of unaccepted behavior prior to this".

Now I see the disconnect. I must have missed "the signs of unacceptable behavior prior to this".

If its not too much trouble, could you please identify the actual prior behavior of AR that was unacceptable?

 

[jondaba]

The deviant sexual environment was created by the base command structure turning a blind eye to a prostitution ring run by Army personnel and a system that punished victims of sexual harassment and assault rather than the perpetrators. I wasn’t talking specifically about AR’s actions, but the atmosphere that allowed him to feel he might get away with whatever he chose to do.

IMO

I missed where AR said that he felt "might get away with whatever he chose to do". Did he express that feeling? I haven't seen it on this thread.

 

[Cryptic]

The people who knew him in school and while growing up had a lot to say about him. They report he had a history of harassment and physically violent outbursts that goes back years.

My guess is that the social media posts are reporting his past behavior after the fact. Prior to Robinson committing the murder, there could well have been far fewer social media indications that he was potentially dangerous.

The Army does do more comprehensive background investigations on some soldiers including Commissioned officers, those with security clearances, and perhaps Special Forces soldiers.

But.... there are over 471,000 soldiers in the US Army. Attempting to identify and eliminate all those with unpleasant personalities as potential predators may not be possible in the practical sense. Likewise, it may not be possible in the practical sense to constantly re-evaluate hundreds of thousands of accepted servicemen in an attempt to ensure that none have developed potentially dangerous tendencies.

In short, at the end of the day, eliminating all potentially dangerous individuals from serving as soldiers, teachers, doctors etc. is very desirable, but may not practical in the possible sense.