Found Deceased TX - PFC Vanessa Guillen, 20, Fort Hood military base, items left behind, 22 Apr 2020 *arrests* #3

[NoSI]

What is it that you guys want to know from a lawyer about CA’s Michigan cases?

LOVE, Love, love your Avatar!

 

[Moonbeam456]

My younger cousin always wanted to be in the military and after getting through some very tough teenage years she finally accomplished her dream. She was stationed at Fort Hood and was really excelling in her career and was the happiest she’d ever been. She was being sexually harassed by another soldier but didn’t want to say anything. One night while walking in a remote area of the base she was cornered by the soldier who was harassing her and two others and was held down and raped by all three. She was terrified but reported it the next day to her superiors, showing them her bruises and ripped clothes from the night before. You know what happened? She was quickly deemed mentally unstable and discharged, no investigation, nothing. She came home a broken person and has never fully recovered to this day. The violence that Vanessa and my cousin endured is not something new in the military nor is how it was handled. My heart goes out to her family, I can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling right now.

 

[tayaway]

My younger cousin always wanted to be in the military and after getting through some very tough teenage years she finally accomplished her dream. She was stationed at Fort Hood and was really excelling in her career and was the happiest she’d ever been. She was being sexually harassed by another soldier but didn’t want to say anything. One night while walking in a remote area of the base she was cornered by the soldier who was harassing her and two others and was held down and raped by all three. She was terrified but reported it the next day to her superiors, showing them her bruises and ripped clothes from the night before. You know what happened? She was quickly deemed mentally unstable and discharged, no investigation, nothing. She came home a broken person and has never fully recovered to this day. The violence that Vanessa and my cousin endured is not something new in the military nor is how it was handled. My heart goes out to her family, I can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling right now.

I'm so sorry your cousin went through that. ETA: Maybe VG's death can bring about some kind of change. Maybe.

 

[thecrimesheet]

My younger cousin always wanted to be in the military and after getting through some very tough teenage years she finally accomplished her dream. She was stationed at Fort Hood and was really excelling in her career and was the happiest she’d ever been. She was being sexually harassed by another soldier but didn’t want to say anything. One night while walking in a remote area of the base she was cornered by the soldier who was harassing her and two others and was held down and raped by all three. She was terrified but reported it the next day to her superiors, showing them her bruises and ripped clothes from the night before. You know what happened? She was quickly deemed mentally unstable and discharged, no investigation, nothing. She came home a broken person and has never fully recovered to this day. The violence that Vanessa and my cousin endured is not something new in the military nor is how it was handled. My heart goes out to her family, I can’t imagine the pain they must be feeling right now.

Thank you for sharing your story! Yes, as Tayaway said: hopefully there will be changes made within the system, and others will finally feel validated and like it wasn't their fault — because it isn't.

 

[m00c0w]

Not sure if this has been covered (I haven't checked out the thread since it had 15 pages) but I've been fixated on this hammer thing. Does anyone with military experience know if it's common that a hammer would be in an armory? If so, wouldn't someone else realize it was missing? I can't really imagine that there would be dozens of them laying around per armory.

I'm asking to see if premeditation was established, which would speak to a prior tumultuous relationship between VG and AR and so he brought his own weapon, or if this was a spur of the moment killing w/ a weapon of opportunity, ie: I'm angry and so here's this hammer and I'm going to attack. The hammer could play a key role in trying to figure that out.

Thanks in advance!

I don’t think it would be strange to have a hammer in the armory, or in most places on a military installation, really. Soldiers are the ones that usually fix things, so you wind up with a potential for various tools to be scattered about throughout office spaces or work areas. I also doubt it would be missed in any real way. Someone would grumble about it if they needed it, but would probably chalk it up to some dumb private needing it for something and not returning it to its proper home.

 

[Cryptic]

Although Robinson was not a sergeant, it does appear that Vanessa was being sexually harassed. The family identified him as being the perpetrator. Maybe they assumed he was her superior because he had a higher rank? Idk.

One source related that the victim informed her family that another soldier (implied he was an NCO) was making sexually suggestive comments to her in Spanish.

Though the accuracy of the source has not been verified, the stated use of Spanish likely, but not absolutely, excludes Robinson. It would also exclude a certain number of Hispanics as well. Likewise, the statement supports the possibility of a second individual.

 

[Boxer]

IMO

I see what you're saying, but what really caught my eye was your last sentence: "Prior to Vanessa's being murdered, what did the Army do wrong to her?"

Do you think it's possible that as a young woman where sexual harassment is rampant on military bases, they had a duty to protect her from that behavior in the first place? If Vanessa confided in her family that she was afraid of coming forward because other women weren't treated well after they spoke out as survivors, that's on the military for allowing that kind of behavior and treatment to take place. If it's not investigating Vanessa's case as you mention specifically, it should be an investigation into how they allow harassment behavior to flourish.

These were just some articles I found on the matter, proving there's a problem that must be addressed. Women die every day at the hands of angry, controlling, and jealous men. That doesn't go away simply after putting on a US military uniform.

Inside Fort Hood's Prostitution Ring: May 2015
#IamVanessaGuillen
What I Wish I'd Known About Sexual Assault in the Military: the Atlantic

MOO IMO Both men and women suffer at the hands of superior ranks. Just my opinion but harrassment generally takes different forms. Just my opinion the lower sergeant and lower officers (within their tier) have the most energy to pick on someone downhill from them.
Ridiculing a male soldier, hurting his chances being accepted in his unit.
Sexually suggestive harrassing a female and possibly moving to physical assault.

It's up to leadership to stop the ****.
They know it happens, have experience with it and human nature, keeping it from happening in their unit is their business.

If a E7 came to the armory and said, "I noticed some tension around PFC in the next armory and you.
Got my eye on you, don't be dumb, you've got a future to worry about, and I will dump a load of bricks on anyone harming the cohesion of this unit."

If the above happened, I believe VG would be alive.

 

[BeachSky]

I don’t think it would be strange to have a hammer in the armory, or in most places on a military installation, really. Soldiers are the ones that usually fix things, so you wind up with a potential for various tools to be scattered about throughout office spaces or work areas. I also doubt it would be missed in any real way. Someone would grumble about it if they needed it, but would probably chalk it up to some dumb private needing it for something and not returning it to its proper home.

The hammer ....such a slow kill.
I remember that Theresa Sievers asked “why” as it was happening.

Just horrific. MOO

 

[Beans]

MOO IMO Both men and women suffer at the hands of superior ranks. Just my opinion but harrassment generally takes different forms. Just my opinion the lower sergeant and lower officers (within their tier) have the most energy to pick on someone downhill from them.
Ridiculing a male soldier, hurting his chances being accepted in his unit.
Sexually suggestive harrassing a female and possibly moving to physical assault.

It's up to leadership to stop the ****.
They know it happens, have experience with it and human nature, keeping it from happening in their unit is their business.

If a E7 came to the armory and said, "I noticed some tension around PFC in the next armory and you.
Got my eye on you, don't be dumb, you've got a future to worry about, and I will dump a load of bricks on anyone harming the cohesion of this unit."

If the above happened, I believe VG would be alive.

Harassment shouldn’t happen to anyone but there’s a power imbalance between males and females, and there’s also a culture which permits misogyny and sexist attitudes on top of that. Does it happen to males too? Yes, but person(s) doing the harassment will most often be male too regardless of sex of the victim. Most females will be unable to physically defend themselves against most males. That’s just a fact, and it affects how these things play out.

there’s nothing to be gained from saying “oh it’s just a thing that happens”. If there’s a culture of sexually improper behaviour you’re going to get situations in which ordinarily minor incidents (comparatively speaking) will become something much worse. The leadership and management have some control over that. They need to take claims seriously and dish out meaningful punishments. There needs to be consequences. Sounds like Fort Hood leadership needs to be physically dragged out of the dark ages and forced to confront the problems they have. For Vanessa and for every other individual on base that can’t just get on with their work and their lives because of toxic and frightening behaviours.

 

[Cryptic]

Does anyone with military experience know if it's common that a hammer would be in an armory? If so, wouldn't someone else realize it was missing? I can't really imagine that there would be dozens of them laying around per armory.

Thanks in advance!

Though I have never been active duty military, I have worked around machine shops. I would say sledge hammers, probably not. Carpenter's hammers, maybe. Ball peen hammers, definetly.

Light to medium ballpeen hammers are very handy for tapping reluctant parts loose. They are also double headed between the hammer and the ball. This allows them to function as two tools in one.

As for inventories, the Army is probably very good at keeping track of its issued gear. But... items like hammers are not sensitive and probably inventoried every so often.

A former soldier that I once knew (mechanic) said the men in his shop would just buy tool replacements out of their own money to avoid needing to give explanations for lost or broken items that were more trouble than they were worth.

 

[Beltonian]

Few more notes from my husband.


The Army has the SHARP program.
The Army's Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention program, known as SHARP, exists so the Army can prevent sexual harassment and sexual assaults before they occur. Our goal is to eliminate sexual assaults and sexual harassment by creating a climate that respects the dignity of every member of the Army family.

Every unit down to company level has a SHARP representative. A soldier can not only go to their unit representative, they can go to any representative at any unit at any command level ( if they don't trust their own superiors). At the company level, Vanessa's representative would have been posted on the wall as well as the representatives at higher command levels. Those people are there specifically there to train soldiers to identify sexual harassment/assault and how to report it. All soldiers are trained on the program. Even if a soldier is being harassed by their own commander, they have the resources and training to report it and be protected from it. If a soldier who has been trained to recognize and report harassment, and is given representatives at multiple command levels to report it to, but fails to do so, you cannot blame the Army.

As for a missing soldier being classified as AWOL ( GWM case) This is not a designation of deserter. Absent Without Leave simply means the soldier should have been present for duty, but failed to report. Nor are they on approved leave to attend training or vacation. AWOL means the military does not know where you are. It does not mean you are a deserter. You could be in a hospital, captive or any other reason that prevents you from being at work. Once you are AWOL, the military will attempt to locate the soldier, but if they can't they will eventually halt all pay and benefits until it is determined what happened. Again, AWOL does not equate to deserter. It simply means you are not at duty and no one knows where you are.

I attempted to research some statistics on per capita murder rates between the military and civilian populations but most of the research I found on the military was from the 80's and 90's. My figures are approximates based on my reading, and I am including no references so I encourage you to check these figures on your own. It seemed to be that the murder rate per 100,000 in Vanessa's age group was about 5-6 in civilian urban populations and also in the military. From what I could find suicide rates were higher among the military, but not homicides. This would indicate the military is no worse or better than the civilian world at preventing deranged people from doing horrific things.

During my career I was stationed at many bases. I saw murders, drug dealing, prostitution, arms smuggling, rapes, and other crimes. Fort Hood was the biggest base I was assigned to and it naturally had the most crime. I cannot blame the base leadership or the army for this, it is simple math. The more people in one place, the more crime you will have.

Something else to consider is this. Unlike normal society that has a homogeneous mix of all age groups, the military is a concentration of young adults, many away from home for the first time. Anytime you group so many immature overconfident people in one place, bad things are going to happen. Their leaders are often barely older than they are. These young adults lack access to the wisdom of older peers available in the civilian world. Most companies have few soldiers in their 30's and maybe none in their 40's. In reality I applause commanders for being able to guide these young adults as well as they do. It seems to me the per capita rate of homicides would be much higher than it is, so the military must be doing something right.

 

[windrower]

Now that we have learned that VG was murdered by psychopath AR, what are we faulting Ft. Hood for?
Absent some special knowledge that a person is in imminent danger and a special duty to protect that person, the government is not liable to people killed by random criminals.
Take for example Jennifer Dulos- the State of Connecticut is not responsible or liable for her murder.
Does the Army owe damages to AR's mom and dad? What if AR would have killed himself on the base? What about John Lennon, who was murdered in New York City by a psychopath. Was the State of New York or the NYPD responsible?

rsbm

Your examples of people killed by others seems an apple/orange comparison to Vanessa’s murder.

Vanessa’s employer had a duty to provide a safe work environment. Vanessa may have been murdered by a psychopath, too, but in her case, her employer allowed a deviant sexual environment to exist without repercussions.

Feels much like troops being killed by friendly fire, which means there was a SNAFU.

<modsnip>

 

[MichelleBlue]

rsbm

Your examples of people killed by others seems an apple/orange comparison to Vanessa’s murder.

Vanessa’s employer had a duty to provide a safe work environment. Vanessa may have been murdered by a psychopath, too, but in her case, her employer allowed a deviant sexual environment to exist without repercussions.

Feels much like troops being killed by friendly fire, which means there was a SNAFU.

<modsnip quoted post>

Respectfully MOO, but VG never reported anything to her chain of command, so how were they supposed to know that AR was contributing to a "deviant sexual environment?" It is no different than if a woman worked at an office job. Her supervisor starts to sexually harass her. She tells a family member, but no one at work. The guy ends up cornering her alone, assaults, & kills her. Is her employer responsible for her murder? Are they liable for tolerating sexual harassment when it was never reported?

IMO, whoever locked up in the evening after VG never returned should've sounded the alarms then. If she was falsely reported as present that afternoon, that person should face consequences. However, sadly at that point VG was most likely already deceased. VG should've felt comfortable reporting the abuse. Sometimes it takes time to work up the nerve. And sadly, VG was never given a chance.

ETA spelling

 

[MichelleBlue]

rsbm

Your examples of people killed by others seems an apple/orange comparison to Vanessa’s murder.

Vanessa’s employer had a duty to provide a safe work environment. Vanessa may have been murdered by a psychopath, too, but in her case, her employer allowed a deviant sexual environment to exist without repercussions.

Feels much like troops being killed by friendly fire, which means there was a SNAFU. Look it up.



BOLDED TEXT is my response to the poster’s questions.

jondaba, please take a deep breath, and recalibrate. You sound a bit hysterical.

Respectfully, when you reply to someone's quote, you shouldn't edit their actual quote with your response. That gets confusing. Because then someone could reply to that quote & then it appears as if jondaba said all of it, when it actually included your commentary. IMO

 

[mom2chloe]

Respectfully MOO, but VG never reported anything to her chain of command, so how were they supposed to know that AR was contributing to a "deviant sexual environment?" It is no different than if a woman worked at an office job. Her supervisor starts to sexually harass her. She tells a family member, but no one at work. The guy ends up cornering her alone, assaults, & kills her. Is her employer responsible for her murder? Are they liable for tolerating sexual harassment when it was never reported?

IMO, whoever locked up in the evening after VG never returned should've sounded the alarms then. If she was falsely reported as present that afternoon, that person should face consequences. However, sadly at that point VG was most likely already deceased. VG should've felt comfortable reporting the abuse. Sometimes it takes time to work up the nerve. And sadly, VG was never given a chance.

ETA spelling

Rbbm exactly! Someone is responsible to some extent for not reporting her AWOL or missing when they noticed she left all the personal belongings behind. JMO All that time went by with nothing. Despite this military base, Ft Hood, where would a 20 year old turn up missing without someone reporting or at the least doing a welfare check? Protect your loved one especially the women in your lives. IMO

 

[Beans]

Few more notes from my husband.


The Army has the SHARP program.
The Army's Sexual Harassment/Assault Response and Prevention program, known as SHARP, exists so the Army can prevent sexual harassment and sexual assaults before they occur. Our goal is to eliminate sexual assaults and sexual harassment by creating a climate that respects the dignity of every member of the Army family.

Every unit down to company level has a SHARP representative. A soldier can not only go to their unit representative, they can go to any representative at any unit at any command level ( if they don't trust their own superiors). At the company level, Vanessa's representative would have been posted on the wall as well as the representatives at higher command levels. Those people are there specifically there to train soldiers to identify sexual harassment/assault and how to report it. All soldiers are trained on the program. Even if a soldier is being harassed by their own commander, they have the resources and training to report it and be protected from it. If a soldier who has been trained to recognize and report harassment, and is given representatives at multiple command levels to report it to, but fails to do so, you cannot blame the Army.

As for a missing soldier being classified as AWOL ( GWM case) This is not a designation of deserter. Absent Without Leave simply means the soldier should have been present for duty, but failed to report. Nor are they on approved leave to attend training or vacation. AWOL means the military does not know where you are. It does not mean you are a deserter. You could be in a hospital, captive or any other reason that prevents you from being at work. Once you are AWOL, the military will attempt to locate the soldier, but if they can't they will eventually halt all pay and benefits until it is determined what happened. Again, AWOL does not equate to deserter. It simply means you are not at duty and no one knows where you are.

I attempted to research some statistics on per capita murder rates between the military and civilian populations but most of the research I found on the military was from the 80's and 90's. My figures are approximates based on my reading, and I am including no references so I encourage you to check these figures on your own. It seemed to be that the murder rate per 100,000 in Vanessa's age group was about 5-6 in civilian urban populations and also in the military. From what I could find suicide rates were higher among the military, but not homicides. This would indicate the military is no worse or better than the civilian world at preventing deranged people from doing horrific things.

During my career I was stationed at many bases. I saw murders, drug dealing, prostitution, arms smuggling, rapes, and other crimes. Fort Hood was the biggest base I was assigned to and it naturally had the most crime. I cannot blame the base leadership or the army for this, it is simple math. The more people in one place, the more crime you will have.

Something else to consider is this. Unlike normal society that has a homogeneous mix of all age groups, the military is a concentration of young adults, many away from home for the first time. Anytime you group so many immature overconfident people in one place, bad things are going to happen. Their leaders are often barely older than they are. These young adults lack access to the wisdom of older peers available in the civilian world. Most companies have few soldiers in their 30's and maybe none in their 40's. In reality I applause commanders for being able to guide these young adults as well as they do. It seems to me the per capita rate of homicides would be much higher than it is, so the military must be doing something right.

thanks for info! One thing though, if a person doesn’t report - even after being trained and made aware of the reporting system - the obvious next step is to ask why. If people don’t feel supported or confident in the system, the system maybe just doesn’t work. And if that’s the case here, that very much is the army’s fault.

Tick box exercises aren’t sufficient. There has to be top down AND bottom up investment in something like that. Fort Hood has a problem, I think, that much is clear.

feel like I’m getting a little off topic now though so I’ll leave my irritable rants about ineffective systems right there. I just think they deserve better. Much better.

 

[CronesEye]

thanks for info! One thing though, if a person doesn’t report - even after being trained and made aware of the reporting system - the obvious next step is to ask why. If people don’t feel supported or confident in the system, the system maybe just doesn’t work. And if that’s the case here, that very much is the army’s fault.

Tick box exercises aren’t sufficient. There has to be top down AND bottom up investment in something like that. Fort Hood has a problem, I think, that much is clear.

feel like I’m getting a little off topic now though so I’ll leave my irritable rants about ineffective systems right there. I just think they deserve better. Much better.

" One thing though, if a person doesn’t report - even after being trained and made aware of the reporting system - the obvious next step is to ask why. If people don’t feel supported or confident in the system, the system maybe just doesn’t work. And if that’s the case here, that very much is the army’s fault. "

This statement is just pure gold and says it all. Thank you very much for the clarity and directness

" There has to be top down AND bottom up investment in something like that."

Yes it is a command problem and the command has the power to bury it and let the perp go and re-victimize the victim. Here is a good explanation of how command drops the ball:
Vanessa Guillen’s death shines light on military’s handling of sex assault and harassment

"Fort Hood has a problem, I think, that much is clear."

Fort Hood and their defenders are doing everything they can to keep the status quo. Why wouldn't they. Its an old boys club. Congress is going to have to get involved for change.

"I’ll leave my irritable rants about ineffective systems right there. I just think they deserve better. Much better."

Please don't stop, we need your irritable rants, the minute we stop ranting (and reporting) when something is wrong is the minute we give up and create a future generation of victims. We do NOT want that. In the military I found I had to stand up for others who were to afraid to say anything and the perpetrator just went on and on without consequences seeking out ever more victims. So my point is Beans - Someone has to rant or it won't stop but get worse and not every one can rant. So while you can do it please do it - not just for yourself but those who can't. Please.

 

[Boxer]

MOO Focus should be to prevent unwanted behaviors, not mess around wasting energy with reports of things that should never have happened in the first place.
MOO going forward Ft. HOOD needs to be made an exemplary base.

 

[CronesEye]

I’m now wondering if she only told her mom does that mean the Army won’t believe it? How does this work in the military?

Army Col. Kathryn Spletstoser can tell us how it works:
Gen. John Hyten 'did something incredibly wrong to me,' says Col. Kathryn Spletstoser
So can the first female to be a combat pilot, Senator Martha McSally:
Arizona Sen. Martha McSally Says She Was Raped While In The Air Force

These women did not report because they did not trust the system. They were and are accomplished. And according to the military, liars.

 

[CronesEye]

Even senior females officers know you won't be taken seriously if you report harassment. It hurts, it doesn't help.