TX - Police respond to reports of shooter at Santa Fe High School, 18 May 2018

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North, a retired Marine whose role in the Iran-Contra affair in the 1980s made him a household name, appeared in ads for the war-centered video game “Call of Duty: Black Ops II” and has also worked as a consultant for the game.
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/oliver-north-school-shootings_us_5b018dece4b0a046186d22be


I wonder if his immunity in the Iran- Contra Affair included his rights to possess a firearm....................his behaviour was nothing short of a glorified gun runner IMO.
 
After the officer got shot, the other officer pulled him to safety. Then they called for SWAT and waited for them to arrive. Meanwhile students who were already shot were left bleeding to death, and more students were getting shot. Everything the police do, is about protecting themselves, not others.

So being shot and almost dying to you means protecting yourself? What exactly would you expect the shot cop to do? Bullet hit a blood vessel and he wasn't any longer in operational state.
 
So being shot and almost dying to you means protecting yourself? What exactly would you expect the shot cop to do? Bullet hit a blood vessel and he wasn't any longer in operational state.

There were two there. Where was the other one?
 
There were two there. Where was the other one?

One got shot, the other took the shot one to safety. The one who got shot was rapidly losing blood. If he didn't get medical attention presumably he would have died.
"He was bleeding out and his blood pressure was very low, so the immediate issue was to resuscitate him and give him enough blood product to get his blood pressure up and take him straight to the OR," said a surgeon with UTMB."
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/santa-...cer-john-barnes-shot-update-today-2018-05-18/
 
One got shot, the other took the shot one to safety. The one who got shot was rapidly losing blood. If he didn't get medical attention presumably he would have died.

So saving the life of the other officer > saving the life of a student. Exactly like KaaBoom said.
 
So saving the life of the other officer > saving the life of a student. Exactly like KaaBoom said.

Well they both could have just stayed outside. There is clearly nothing they could have done to please some people here. Almost dying isn't enough and still all about protecting oneself.
 
There's a myriad of posts that basically apply to after "the horse is out of the barn".
Schools are a fairly easy target for shooters, secure them and what prevents the shooters to rain terror on the local McDonalds hangout or such? How about a shopping mall, theater, a community baseball field, or church?
We've all seen those incidents.

So, if a "child" is pissed off, hurt, angry, rejected, bullied, etc. with a firearm, how do you stop that "horse" from getting out of the "barn"?

I believe that is the crux of this issue. Anything else just moves the target to another local, with more deaths and injuries. IMHO.
 
Well they both could have just stayed outside. There is clearly nothing they could have done to please some people here. Almost dying isn't enough and still all about protecting oneself.
Is it a tough choice the officer had to make, or is there a procedure for such a scenario?
 
Well they both could have just stayed outside. There is clearly nothing they could have done to please some people here. Almost dying isn't enough and still all about protecting oneself.

What did they do exactly? You say there's nothing they could have done to please some people, but it seems to me the problem is they did nothing. Is that what they're hired to do - be a visual deterrent and then save themselves? The shooter was able to eliminate them both and carry out his mission.
 
The 2 officers in question did what they were trained to do, as been stated in nurmerous MSM.
That seems to be a mute conversation unless an investigation proves otherwise.

:gaah:
 
There's a myriad of posts that basically apply to after "the horse is out of the barn".
Schools are a fairly easy target for shooters, secure them and what prevents the shooters to rain terror on the local McDonalds hangout or such? How about a shopping mall, theater, a community baseball field, or church?
We've all seen those incidents.

So, if a "child" is pissed off, hurt, angry, rejected, bullied, etc. with a firearm, how do you stop that "horse" from getting out of the "barn"?

I believe that is the crux of this issue. Anything else just moves the target to another local, with more deaths and injuries. IMHO.

I think once someone is in the "horse out of the barn" situation you describe it's too late. At that point the only option is to save lives while some will undoubtedly be lost, and IMO that's not good enough. We need to address the horse and barn problem before it reaches that level. Before the person is angry, armed, and bent on some twisted vengeance.

We create and enable these monsters and it's dangerous to accept them as a fact of life like tornadoes or hurricanes. People will continue to die while we put boards over windows and install metal detectors.
 
The 2 officers in question did what they were trained to do, as been stated in nurmerous MSM.
That seems to be a mute conversation unless an investigation proves otherwise.

:gaah:

To be clear I'm not criticizing the officers or finding fault for their actions. I believe we all have a ver real instinct to keep ourselves alive when faced with danger. My point is having them there wasn't a solution to the problem, not the way it was handled any way. I'm sure they were following procedure and doing all that was expected of them. But did it do any good, having them there? I'm not sure.
 
What did they do exactly? You say there's nothing they could have done to please some people, but it seems to me the problem is they did nothing. Is that what they're hired to do - be a visual deterrent and then save themselves? The shooter was able to eliminate them both and carry out his mission.

How did they do nothing? That's absurd. They followed the procedure, went in and confronted the shooter. The shooter then shot one of them and that cop almost died.
 
So being shot and almost dying to you means protecting yourself? What exactly would you expect the shot cop to do? Bullet hit a blood vessel and he wasn't any longer in operational state.

Yes, he got shot. So the other cop protected him, and pulled him to safety. Then they called for SWAT to take over. Unfortunately students were still getting shot, and these who were already shot were not getting help.
 
How did they do nothing? That's absurd. They followed the procedure, went in and confronted the shooter. The shooter then shot one of them and that cop almost died.

Did it do any good? Did they stop the shooter? How many lives did they save?
 
Texas Lieutenant Governor Calls For ‘Hardening’ Of Schools


SANTA FE, Texas (AP) — Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick called Sunday for a “hardening” of the nation’s school buildings in the wake of the attack by a 17-year-old student who killed 10 people at a high school near Houston.


Patrick, a Republican, blamed a “culture of violence” and said more needs to be done to keep shooters away from students, such as restricting school entrances and arming teachers.


“When you’re facing someone who’s an active shooter, the best way to take that shooter down is with a gun. But even better than that is four to five guns to one,” he told CNN’s “State of the Union.”


[...]


http://denver.cbslocal.com/2018/05/20/texas-school-shooting-santa-fe-high/


I don't think the idea of arming teachers is a very viable solution.

First of all, being armed creates a feeling of apprehension and danger not conducive to teaching. It utterly changes the focus.


Here's a professor who is highly trained in firearms usage and has a conceal carry license explaining how it feels and why he thinks it would be a terrible idea:


"Being armed places you in a state of mind that is not conducive to teaching. Carrying a firearm responsibly means that you are operating in a state of heightened awareness and caution. You are aware of where your firearm is at all times. You are aware of your environment. You are aware of everyone around you. And whether you want to admit it or not, you are looking for threat—trying to identify whether or not you might need to use that firearm you are carrying.
Such mindsets might be totally appropriate for a law enforcement officer, a security officer, or a soldier. They are not at all appropriate for educating.
Personally, I cannot imagine walking into class every day being mentally prepared to both educate hungry minds and execute another human being if the situation required it.


When educators become enforcers, education stops."


Much more of his experiences and reasoning as well as a general discussion of arming teachers- how it would work, and obstacles to it.


I urge anyone who wants to honestly research the issue and intellectually debate the pros and cons, to read it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.citylab.com/amp/article/554129/


Second, some teachers experience their own mental health or other stability issues - molesting students, feeding them semen, humiliating or abusing students, having psychotic episodes, having rage issues. Etc. I think more armed teachers increases the chance that a nut could be carrying. (But read below about how Texas already deals with this issue).


Third, from my own observations, only highly trained individuals who consistently retrain on a regular basis and are in a state of alert at all times would be able to effectively neutralize an active shooter. Some may be able to respond if they weren't in the direct line of fire and had time to gather themselves and get ready to use their firearm. Like maybe a teacher like the one in this tragedy who stood next to the door. If he had a gun he could also have it cocked and ready to shoot as the intruder entered. But for teachers already in the class when the shooter barges in, even those who are highly trained would lack the response time usually.


But either way, many armed teachers would simply panic or accidentally hit an innocent person because they can't aim well, in such a panicked situation where there are moving targets, or purposefully hit an innocent person thinking they are the bad guy.


So, for example, armed teacher standing next to the door waiting for the bad guy to enter? A kid running into the classroom trying to get away from the gunman could be easily executed by the teacher. By mistake.


Fourth, basic firearm safety. There are way too many accidents some fatal, or suicides or homicides, related to responsible gun owners. Most people are responsible gun owners. Until they're not.


It is human nature to make mistakes. The most highly trained gun users make mistakes. But with a deadly weapon, mistakes can be, well, deadly.


Check out this highly trained law enforcement officer shooting himself in a a room full of kids during a lecture on gun safety. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHEOSyMqug


It's just too easy to forget where you placed it. Not know it's loaded. Leave the safety off. Leave it where a student can access it. I mean there's a lot going on in a classroom. It's busy and distracting and intense. But we expect them to be safe armed guards at the same time?


And what about some psycho kid overpowering the teacher and taking their weapon? Kid is standing next to teacher and suddenly flips?


Fifth, the expense would be too great. Texas already arms teachers. Many districts have plans that allow for the arming of staff under controlled circumstances that include 80 hours of training and mental health testing. (I think the mental health testing would be key but not foolproof but the training wouldn't be near enough to adequately prepare them to safely and quickly and effectively respond, or to avoid accidents, IMO).


But the cost of such programs is prohibitive. Please read this article which discusses the programs Texas districts have and how they work. To engage in an honest discussion, it is necessary to fully consider both sides and the Texas programs admittedly seem well thought out and to address the main concerns to arming teachers, (although it doesn't address the effect on the teachers and their ability to tech while fully armed).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.caller.com/amp/364677002


Sixth. Most teachers oppose the idea. I don't think there re enough responsible, stable teachers who want to be armed to make this a viable preventive option.
"Nearly 75% of teachers oppose the idea of being trained to carry guns in schools, a new survey finds. According to an online Gallup surveyreleased Friday, 63% surveyed strongly opposed the idea of arming teachers, with 10% somewhat opposing the measure. Only 11% strongly favored the idea, and 7% were neutral. Yet just 18% of the teachers surveyed said they would go through training to carry a gun if their district or administrators provided it.
Meanwhile, six in 10 teachers think schools would become less safe if educators armed themselves, though seven in 10 think it would in effective in stopping the next mass shooting."
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/5203935/arming-teachers-gun-control-poll


So what to do? There are other options and better uses of resources that would be funneled toward arming teachers, IMO. Here is a comprehensive look at how some European nations are handling the problem using an approach that tries to prevent the massacres before they ever come close to fruition rather than reacting when it happens:

"In a first step, European nations drafted schemes to identify at-risk individuals. Swiss authorities, for instance, have a list of about 2,000 individuals they suspect of being willing to commit shootings. All of them are frequently approached by authorities, along with psychologists.
Other countries, including Germany, have attempted to set up government-led national networks dedicated to spot potential attackers and to stop them before they can pursue their plans. Funding for in-school psychologists was increased exponentially. Teachers at every school are now being trained to act as “trusted personnel,” as a first point of contact either for students who want to seek psychological support themselves or for others who want to raise alarm over the behavior of an individual. Psychologists are then called in to examine each case further.


In a second step, at-risk individuals are barred from accessing firearms. In Switzerland, they are forced to hand over their weapons immediately or are barred from purchasing new ones. Psychological tests are now also standard practice for Germans younger than 25 who want to purchase firearms."
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...e-armed-other-countries-have-different-ideas/


Much more at link. Please read it.
 
Yes, he got shot. So the other cop protected him, and pulled him to safety. Then they called for SWAT to take over. Unfortunately students were still getting shot, and these who were already shot were not getting help.

Again, they should have just stayed outside like the Parkland cop did because obviously they could have done nothing for you to be satisfied with it.
 
Texas Gov.Abbott is still touting shotgun giveaway after shooting on his website.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/20/us/greg-abbott-shotgun-giveaway-trnd/index.html

Vikki Goodwin, a candidate for the State House District 47 in west Travis County, was door-to-door campaigning on Saturday afternoon when she came across a door hanger advertising the giveaway.
"I was just astounded that he was giving away a shotgun," Goodwin told CNN. "The timing of it just seemed really bad."
 
Did it do any good? Did they stop the shooter? How many lives did they save?

It's dangerous to confront the shooter in case you don't realize it, and you being able to stop the shooter without being shot yourself is far from a guarantee.
 
I think once someone is in the "horse out of the barn" situation you describe it's too late. At that point the only option is to save lives while some will undoubtedly be lost, and IMO that's not good enough. We need to address the horse and barn problem before it reaches that level. Before the person is angry, armed, and bent on some twisted vengeance.

We create and enable these monsters and it's dangerous to accept them as a fact of life like tornadoes or hurricanes. People will continue to die while we put boards over windows and install metal detectors.

BBM. Exactly. Now take that 2nd sentence and what can we deter in some manner: "Angry", "Armed", "Vengeance".
What could be done RIGHT NOW to stifle any of those 3 items? What won't cost us a dime?
 
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