TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

[faw720]

Interesting. Same judge here - http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/08/5471086/five-suits-against-couch-family.html
Posted Thursday, Jan. 09, 2014



I noticed Judge Wallace was appointed by Governor Perry mid-term to fill a vacancy and then was reelected by popular vote and has held his position for 6 years now.

Yes, I just now found that out. IMO, now there's not much doubt what his ruling will be. There is going to be a baby born come he%# or high water. Matter of fact, I would wager every penny I have on it. Governor Perry's politics are to the extreme far right. At one point, he advocated that Texas secede from the United States. Not very long after that, he expressed an interest in running for President of The United States. Figure that one out if you can.

There IS a bit of federal law that the judge must consider. The suit claims that Marlise's 14th Amendment rights are being denied. MOO, that won't slow down the judge much. The majority of Texans are only interested in the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution (the right to bear arms).

 

[KateB]

Yes, I just now found that out. IMO, now there's not much doubt what his ruling will be. There is going to be a baby born come he%# or high water. Matter of fact, I would wager every penny I have on it. Governor Perry's politics are to the extreme far right. At one point, he advocated that Texas secede from the United States. Not very long after that, he expressed an interest in running for President of The United States. Figure that one out if you can.

There IS a bit of federal law that the judge must consider. The suit claims that Marlise's 14th Amendment rights are being denied. MOO, that won't slow down the judge much. The majority of Texans are only interested in the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution (the right to bear arms).

Yes, that is true that 2nd amendment rights are very important in Texas but stay tuned, women's reproductive rights are all the focus right now and until the election.

And remember, Cecile Richards, President of Planned Parenthood, is the daughter of the late great former Governor of Texas, Ann Richards.

 

[faw720]

Yes, that is true that 2nd amendment rights are very important in Texas but stay tuned, women's reproductive rights are all the focus right now and until the election.

And remember, Cecile Richards, President of Planned Parenthood, is the daughter of the late great former Governor of Texas, Ann Richards.

I did not know that about Ann Richard's daughter. Since I'm 75 years old I don't have to worry about my reproductive rights. Thank God!!

I wonder if the judge will say that since Marlise is dead she therefore has no constitutional rights?

 

[KateB]

I did not know that about Ann Richard's daughter. Since I'm 75 years old I don't have to worry about my reproductive rights. Thank God!!

I wonder if the judge will say that since Marlise is dead she therefore has no constitutional rights?

Yes, I can see it going there and instead, the fetus now has those rights. I'm wondering if the father could be at risk of forfeiting his parental rights if/when the viability of the fetus is determined. This gets very complicated.

 

[jjenny]

Fetus has about 3 weeks to go before it's considered viable (at 24 weeks gestation).
Abortion is already prohibited in TX (at 20 weeks gestation).
I really don't like the argument that because she is brain dead, the hospital must turn off life support and release the body (even though it appears to be consistent with the laws).
There could be similar situations in which family wants the pregnancy to continue but hospital says we can turn off life support since the mother is dead.
And seems like that is consistent with the law, but does it make sense? To just completely ignore the fetus even if fetus if vialbe, because the mother is legally dead?
I also don't like the idea that pregnant woman must be kept on life support regardless. Considering fetus can be severely damaged and yet even in that case life support will not be turned off as long as fetus isn't actually dead.

 

[faw720]

Yes, I can see it going there and instead, the fetus now has those rights. I'm wondering if the father could be at risk of forfeiting his parental rights if/when the viability of the fetus is determined. This gets very complicated.

Yes, it's very complicated!! Also, it's terribly sad. Talk about a horror story!!

 

[faw720]

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/tarr...regnant-woman-off-life-support-240966121.html

This is a link to a similar situation except that this dead mom was in her 9th month of pregnancy. She was killed in a car accident. The baby was delivered, but had been without oxygen for roughly 1 hour & 40 minutes. The baby was declared oxygen starved & placed in NICU where she died 8 days later.

IMO, the baby girl in this story should have had a much better chance of survival than the Munoz fetus who was oxygen starved at 14 weeks.

 

[K_Z]

I wonder what people think about the complete silence from the community of perinatal specialists about this case?

AFAIK (and I have looked, often), there is not a single commentary, op ed, or interview from any mainstream neonatologist or perinatal specialist anywhere in the world, who is supporting what is being done in Texas. Not even renowned "talking heads" like Sanjay Gupta of CNN are endorsing what is going on with this woman's body. Not a single one of them is willing to say that attempting to bring a 14 week fetus to term in a brain dead host that suffered an extremely prolonged hypoxic insult is the "right" thing medically and scientifically to do.

Who exactly are the doctors and medical specialists that think this is a correct and appropriate thing to do? Where are they? Why are none of them vociferously supporting this decision to mandate brain dead host gestation for 8-12 weeks? I mean this in all sincerity. I really do want to hear from REAL scientists and specialists, not just ordinary people, or politicians, or pro life advocates, exactly why and how this is the best medical course of action, and what they think the odds are for various outcomes.

Even the noted medical ethicists think it's wrong, like Arthur Caplan.

No matter what the outcome, if a beating heart can be delivered and separated from the host for even a few minutes, the whole pseudo-experimental process will be lauded as a success by the pro life movement. That is terrifying to me.

And I am neither radically "pro choice", nor radically "pro life". Like most of society, I prefer to thoughtfully weigh the consequences of these issues depending on the circumstances. Sometimes ending a pregnancy by choice is the right thing to do, other times it isn't. In this particular case, it isn't a situation of choosing to end a pregnancy. The woman is dead, with a fetus that was no where near viability. Dead isn't the same thing as being a "patient". Marlise ceased to be a "patient" the instant she was determined to be dead, and the fetus was not even close to viable. I really don't begin to understand how this situation was even allowed to develop.

Bring on the decanting jars. It's a brave new world.

 

[Elainera]

KZ I assume they can't say much because they don't know the exact situation since the hospital is not giving any updates about the baby's condition. What should they base their opinion on? Wild msm stories, other non-medical people's opinions and theories? They'd be so embarrassed when their expert opinion later turned out to be completely off the mark. I can understand they are keeping quiet about this one.

 

[jjenny]

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/tarr...regnant-woman-off-life-support-240966121.html

This is a link to a similar situation except that this dead mom was in her 9th month of pregnancy. She was killed in a car accident. The baby was delivered, but had been without oxygen for roughly 1 hour & 40 minutes. The baby was declared oxygen starved & placed in NICU where she died 8 days later.

IMO, the baby girl in this story should have had a much better chance of survival than the Munoz fetus who was oxygen starved at 14 weeks.

The brains of a nearly full term infant and a 14 week gestation fetus would be in a totally different stages of development.
Thus oxygen deprivation might not have the same effect.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Im going to say it is just because they have no idea. We don't know if the baby was deprived of oxygen. IT is not the same as the mother. I don't know the ins and outs but a baby is pretty well protected in there.

I have no idea myself. But I know that with in utero babies still have so much mystery about what they can and can not handle in there.

 

[Karmady]

I wonder what people think about the complete silence from the community of perinatal specialists about this case?

AFAIK (and I have looked, often), there is not a single commentary, op ed, or interview from any mainstream neonatologist or perinatal specialist anywhere in the world, who is supporting what is being done in Texas. Not even renowned "talking heads" like Sanjay Gupta of CNN are endorsing what is going on with this woman's body. Not a single one of them is willing to say that attempting to bring a 14 week fetus to term in a brain dead host that suffered an extremely prolonged hypoxic insult is the "right" thing medically and scientifically to do.

Who exactly are the doctors and medical specialists that think this is a correct and appropriate thing to do? Where are they? Why are none of them vociferously supporting this decision to mandate brain dead host gestation for 8-12 weeks? I mean this in all sincerity. I really do want to hear from REAL scientists and specialists, not just ordinary people, or politicians, or pro life advocates, exactly why and how this is the best medical course of action, and what they think the odds are for various outcomes.

Even the noted medical ethicists think it's wrong, like Arthur Caplan.

No matter what the outcome, if a beating heart can be delivered and separated from the host for even a few minutes, the whole pseudo-experimental process will be lauded as a success by the pro life movement. That is terrifying to me.

And I am neither radically "pro choice", nor radically "pro life". Like most of society, I prefer to thoughtfully weigh the consequences of these issues depending on the circumstances. Sometimes ending a pregnancy by choice is the right thing to do, other times it isn't. In this particular case, it isn't a situation of choosing to end a pregnancy. The woman is dead, with a fetus that was no where near viability. Dead isn't the same thing as being a "patient". Marlise ceased to be a "patient" the instant she was determined to be dead, and the fetus was not even close to viable. I really don't begin to understand how this situation was even allowed to develop.

Bring on the decanting jars. It's a brave new world.

I'm kind of on the fence about it at this point. On the one hand, I see the potential long-term implications of using a dead mother as a "host." But on the other hand, as a mother, I would hope that the hospital would do everything possible to see if they could get my child born. And that would be true even if an unpregnant me wouldn't want to be on mechanical support with no hope of recovery.

And if I hadn't told the father about my wishes to the contrary, or taken some steps to show that I intended to end the pregnancy, or had a DNR that addressed the situation, I wouldn't want the father to be able to make that decision on my brain dead behalf, either. I guess I see the long-term implications as slightly different then in other cases that don't involve potentially viable fetus...although the issues still are very complex. And, for the record, I'm also neither strongly pro-life or pro-choice.



jmo

 

[faw720]

I wonder what people think about the complete silence from the community of perinatal specialists about this case?

AFAIK (and I have looked, often), there is not a single commentary, op ed, or interview from any mainstream neonatologist or perinatal specialist anywhere in the world, who is supporting what is being done in Texas. Not even renowned "talking heads" like Sanjay Gupta of CNN are endorsing what is going on with this woman's body. Not a single one of them is willing to say that attempting to bring a 14 week fetus to term in a brain dead host that suffered an extremely prolonged hypoxic insult is the "right" thing medically and scientifically to do.

Who exactly are the doctors and medical specialists that think this is a correct and appropriate thing to do? Where are they? Why are none of them vociferously supporting this decision to mandate brain dead host gestation for 8-12 weeks? I mean this in all sincerity. I really do want to hear from REAL scientists and specialists, not just ordinary people, or politicians, or pro life advocates, exactly why and how this is the best medical course of action, and what they think the odds are for various outcomes.

Even the noted medical ethicists think it's wrong, like Arthur Caplan.

No matter what the outcome, if a beating heart can be delivered and separated from the host for even a few minutes, the whole pseudo-experimental process will be lauded as a success by the pro life movement. That is terrifying to me.

And I am neither radically "pro choice", nor radically "pro life". Like most of society, I prefer to thoughtfully weigh the consequences of these issues depending on the circumstances. Sometimes ending a pregnancy by choice is the right thing to do, other times it isn't. In this particular case, it isn't a situation of choosing to end a pregnancy. The woman is dead, with a fetus that was no where near viability. Dead isn't the same thing as being a "patient". Marlise ceased to be a "patient" the instant she was determined to be dead, and the fetus was not even close to viable. I really don't begin to understand how this situation was even allowed to develop.

Bring on the decanting jars. It's a brave new world.

I've wondered the same thing & I agree, I'm not radically pro choice or pro life either. I have also worried that at least some of the medical personnel at JPS hospital are being forced to follow a path directly in conflict with their medical ethics.

Since we now know that the judge hearing the case was originally appointed by our Gov. Perry, I'm certain that we will eventually KNOW WITHOUT DOUBT the results of oxygen deprival of a 14 week fetus.

 

[ceecee30]

Im going to say it is just because they have no idea. We don't know if the baby was deprived of oxygen. IT is not the same as the mother. I don't know the ins and outs but a baby is pretty well protected in there.

I have no idea myself. But I know that with in utero babies still have so much mystery about what they can and can not handle in there.

Respectfully I must disagree, the fetus receives oxygen via the mother from the umbilical cord, if mum loses oxygen so does baby.

This is one of the major reasons women with HELLP syndrome or pre-eclampsia generally deliver their babies with such urgency (pre eclampsia and HELLP syndrome reduce the oxygen flow via the umbilical cord)

In saying all the above I don't think there would be a doctor in the world that could accurately predict the results of a 14week fetus losing oxygen for the *EDIT* unknown time MM's baby was without oxygen for.

I am hopeful the hospital has done every test within their power to see what is actually occurring with the fetus and that it's just not being released via MSM.

 

[KateB]

Respectfully I must disagree, the fetus receives oxygen via the mother from the umbilical cord, if mum loses oxygen so does baby.

This is one of the major reasons women with HELLP syndrome or pre-eclampsia generally deliver their babies with such urgency (pre eclampsia and HELLP syndrome reduce the oxygen flow via the umbilical cord)

In saying all the above I don't think there would be a doctor in the world that could accurately predict the results of a 14week fetus losing oxygen for the 1hr 40mins MM did.

I am hopeful the hospital has done every test within their power to see what is actually occurring with the fetus and that it's just not being released via MSM.

Just to point out in this article, the one hour forty minutes is the Gilbert baby.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Fami...regnant-woman-off-life-support-240966121.html

I believe its still unknown how long the Munoz baby went without or why so long.

 

[ceecee30]

Just to point out in this article, the one hour forty minutes is the Gilbert baby.
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Fami...regnant-woman-off-life-support-240966121.html

I believe its still unknown how long the Munoz baby went without or why so long.

Oops my bad! Thanks for clearing that up I knew I read a time and thought it was for MM...

 

[jjenny]

Hospital plans are to do tests on the fetus in February.
So they haven't yet done all possible tests on the fetus to see if it can be viable. Husband said he doesn't know what condition the fetus is in.

"The next important date is the beginning of February. That's when doctors will test to see how viable Marlise's fetus is, and they’ll also be able to see if she can sustain the child."
http://www.freep.com/article/20140109/NEWS07/301090061/pregnant-daughter-life-support

 

[dh109977]

Hospital plans are to do tests on the fetus in February.
So, no, they haven't yet done all possible tests on the fetus to see if it can be viable.

"The next important date is the beginning of February. That's when doctors will test to see how viable Marlise's fetus is, and they’ll also be able to see if she can sustain the child."
http://www.freep.com/article/20140109/NEWS07/301090061/pregnant-daughter-life-support

I pray this baby is ok. But if the baby has severe damage to the brain or any part of the body that is gonna effect the quality of life this child will have given it can be saved. What will happen? Since the baby will be past the legal abortion age. Will turning off the life support be an option. I don't know how that is viewed since it technically isn't an abortion.

I have always made it clear to my family, friends that I don't want to be kept alive by artificial means. I haven't put it in writing because I am wierd and it freaks me out. But I am an organ donor as well so if I can't be saved and someone else can well then do it.

I did however tell my children's father that if anything was to happen to me when I was pregnant do whatever needed to be done to save my child. Of course that wasn't in writing either. So I understand that father's point but at the same time I think the Mother might have a different opinion had she known this was gonna happen when she was pregnant. But I don't know her and I am going on my personal choices.

 

[Fairy1]

I don't know why it's so difficult for everyone to understand that even if Marlise had made her position clear, IN WRITING, it simply would not matter in the state of Texas. That is the issue here. And her own mother is trying to carry out the wishes of her own child. HER baby.

It's so easy to vilify the husband, isn't it? So easy to reduce the discussion to abortion. But that really isn't what's at stake here. The state is basically using the body of a dead woman to host a fetus. IMO, it's unbelievably disrespectful and disgusting.

 

[jjenny]

I don't know why it's so difficult for everyone to understand that even if Marlise had made her position clear, IN WRITING, it simply would not matter in the state of Texas. That is the issue here. And her own mother is trying to carry out the wishes of her own child. HER baby.

It's so easy to vilify the husband, isn't it? So easy to reduce the discussion to abortion. But that really isn't what's at stake here. The state is basically using the body of a dead woman to host a fetus. IMO, it's unbelievably disrespectful and disgusting.

It's not difficult at all. I understand it perfectly well.
I agree that state is using a body of what considered to be legally dead woman to host a fetus. But after a very short time, once the fetus is delivered, they can turn off life support. Considering that life of a fetus is at stake here, is that too much to ask to wait another six weeks before life support is turned off so fetus can get a chance at life? I just don't understand what is the rush? The woman herself is not suffering since she is brain dead and thus assumed not able to feel pain.