TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

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If nothing else, this case has taught me several things: write down your wishes, so everyone knows what they are (and in every scenario -- such as, "If I'm pregnant and on a ventilator, these are my wishes ____________."); and if you have absolutely no desire to ever be left on life support, be careful where you live.

I wonder if knowing the sex of the unborn child will make living with his decision easier, or harder? I'm surprised he wanted to know, frankly.
 
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/29/acd.01.html

You have to scroll down quite a way before the Munoz transcript begins.


This transcript has some very good information. A lot of it we have heard before. However, it contains some info that I had never heard before. The Munoz family relates that the attending physician told them that he would give them a few minutes alone with Marlise to say their goodbyes & that he would be back shortly to disconnect life support. The doctor comes back to the room quickly & informs them that there is a law forbidding life support to be removed from a pregnant patient. Seeing their stunned looks, he told them that he had only found out about the law 5 minutes before he told them. I feel sorry for that doctor too.:anguish:

It didn't take the 'big boys' long to roll out their big guns.

Any opinions that I express here are MOO.
 
There are a lot of hormonal and metabolic processes which are mediated by or in the brain. So though a brain dead patient and a patient in a coma might both be just lying there "not doing anything" the brain dead patient is nevertheless doing far less in terms of hormonal/metabolic activity which could impact the status of the fetus.

All of those hormones can be added if necessary.
So that certainly doesn't seem like a good one reason.
 
Respectfully & JMO, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. I just hope you are never in the position of being forced into smelling one of your loved ones rotting away. Again, JMO, no one should be FORCED to endure what the Munoz & Machado families have.

You asked how anybody can believe it. And I answered how I can believe it.
If it was up to me personally, and I had an option of saving the baby (fetus) I would go for it. Smell or no smell.
 
All of those hormones can be added if necessary.
So that certainly doesn't seem like a good one reason.

I wasn't asserting that it was a "good one reason", only addressing your comment that a coma or PVS and brain dead patient would for all intents and purposes be the same with regard to a fetus as they are both lying there "doing nothing." Not so. Even "adding" hormones is not the same as when they are generated naturally, as many people on hormone replacement can confirm. Hormones work on a constant feedback system, with adjustments/changes made continuously by the body. It's not possible to completely reproduce that artificially. "Good enough" for the Munoz fetus? I don't know.
 
After ThinkProgress reached out to the John Peter Smith Hospital, a spokesperson explained that billing is part of Muñoz’s medical records, and is therefore covered under privacy laws. The hospital noted that although Eric Muñoz may say whatever he wants on the matter, its officials are not allowed to disclose details about billing unless he agrees to release his deceased wife’s medical records.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/30/3228561/brain-dead-texas-bills/

Just a legal question about this if anyone knows. I can understand not releasing this kind of info to the press, I do wonder how, if billing does fall under HIPPA, how it is they can send your billing to outside collection agencies, since, as this statement says they can't unless the family consents to release of medical records?
 
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/30/3228561/brain-dead-texas-bills/

Just a legal question about this if anyone knows. I can understand not releasing this kind of info to the press, I do wonder how, if billing does fall under HIPPA, how it is they can send your billing to outside collection agencies, since, as this statement says they can't unless the family consents to release of medical records?

It makes no sense to me why they couldn't say we are or are not going to bill the family.

I think the family is taking time to grieve and in the future we may here more from them, when they are ready to address the laws and how this was allowed to happen and continue on for so long.
 
Thanks for the link of the transcript! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/29/acd.01.html

BBM below. This family has shown how to face an unimaginable tragedy with grace and dignity. Their feelings are not just about themselves but also have compassion and consideration for what others in the future may have to deal with because of the law. They want to help other families by sparking conversations about telling your loved ones of your feelings about life and death and life support. They want to work on working on laws or policies to help future families in this situation. They are not just concerned only with themselves and expecting special treatment as another family with a brain dead family member in the news is currently doing.

I am so impressed with this family and the dignity and grace they have portrayed. They didn't resort to bully tactics like protesting at the hospital and inconveniencing other patient's and families. They didn't post the personal phone number of a doctor on Facebook and tell people to call him and demand that he do the way the family wanted.They dealt with the realities of the situation, not their fantasies of medically impossible, miraculous recoveries. They didn't act like they were the only family who has dealt with tragedy.

They have done justice in honoring Marlise. As a result, the legacy of Marlise will be that families have discussions about their wishes. Her story will help many other families.

RIP to Marlise and Baby Nicole. You will long be remembered and your story may help many others to have the conversations about life and death, so that families can face these situations, knowing clearly what their loved one would have wanted. May it bring peace to those families and ease some of their pain.

From the transcript:

COOPER: One of the reasons you're both speaking out, this is not easy. You're not looking to get on television here certainly.

MACHADO: No.

COOPER: But you want people to have this conversation with their loved one.

MUNOZ: Yes.

COOPER: You hope this sparks conversation in families and whether it's getting stuff in writing, but even in this case that wouldn't have made a difference, but to have that conversation.

MACHADO: To have the conversation, to make sure your relatives or other loved ones know what your wishes are. Again, that helped with us being on the same page from the very beginning.

COOPER: One thing I hadn't thought about and I actually got a lot of e-mails and tweets about this from viewers who were saying, well, this family is not going to be given a bill by this hospital for this. There's no way that could happen because that would be unthinkable, did they present you with a bill?

MUNOZ: Well, I have received bills to my house. They have not come to me and said how that's going to work. But I believe I've heard several media outlets saying that they've asked about that. They have asked that question. They said they would continue normal billing.

COOPER: Is there anything else you want people to know?

MACHADO: For me, closure began after she was disconnected. I was able to get a sense of closure and of course, now we're starting the grieving process. And it was hard to do, hard to start the grieving process when we still had this body that we knew was an empty shell in front of it. We really couldn't start grieving, but now we can. For me our story does not end here. It will end when we have laws changed.

COOPER: You're going to continue to fight for that?

MACHADO: Yes. Yes, we are. Yes.

COOPER: I wish you I'm so sorry for all you've gone through as a family. I wish you strength in the days ahead.

MACHADO: Thank you. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: One of things that Marlise's mom said gives her strength is the belief, the firm belief that Marlise is in heaven and was there to greet her baby, Nicole, when she got to heaven.
 
It makes no sense to me why they couldn't say we are or are not going to bill the family.

JMO, the hospital would like for everyone to forget about this entire case. They have already gained international attention to this whole sordid mess & don't want to do anything to further their notoriety.
 
It makes no sense to me why they couldn't say we are or are not going to bill the family.

I think the family is taking time to grieve and in the future we may here more from them, when they are ready to address the laws and how this was allowed to happen and continue on for so long.

The hospital is already billing Mr. Munoz.

Excerpt
In an interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper, Erick Muñoz acknowledged that he has been receiving medical bills at his home — although he’s not sure exactly what he will be expected to pay.
“They have not come to me and said how that’s going to work,” he told CNN. “But I believe I’ve heard several media outlets…saying that they’ve asked about that. They have asked that question. They said they would continue normal billing.”

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/30/3228561/brain-dead-texas-bills/
 
from AC's cnn interview with Erick m and Marlisle's Mother, aired Jan 29
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/29/acd.01.html
MACHADO: ... For me our story does not end here. It will end when we have laws changed.
COOPER: You're going to continue to fight for that?
MACHADO: Yes. Yes, we are. Yes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
BBM SBM

Her family wants to fight tochange the law?
A legal commentator (sorry,no link) I heard said- that's just what happened w the judge's decision.

The legal action (my paraphrasing of commentator):
---Erick's petition asked judge to order hosp to disconnect devices from wife.
--Hosp responded - TX statute prohibits anyone/health care providers from disconnecting devices from any patient who is pregnant.
---Erick's brief argued, TX statute does not apply here, on basis that wife was braindead, therefore no longer a 'patient' as defined in TX statute.
---Judge agreed w Erick's interpretation, decided hosp misinterpreted definition of 'patient' in TX statute, ordered hosp to disconnect devices from wife by a certain time.

IOW, the judge decided -
---nothing re living wills, advance directives, med pwr/atty docs.
---nothing re 'family wishes'
---nothing re fetus' viability, condition, etc.

For future TX situations to end like Erick's eventually did (hosp disconnects devices), commentator said
TXlegislature does not need to amend that statute.
In effect, the judge's interpretation of 'patient' in written opinion amended it.

All subject to poss appeal of that decision and poss overruling or reversal by a TX app ct.
And subject to TX legislature being lobbied by voters and various interests to amend for a different outcome, and poss enacting a new-amended statute, and TX gov signing it.

May not be a settled issue in TX for long.
JM2cts & I could be wrong. :seeya:

In any case, hoping for her fam to find strength and eventually peace & healing. RIP Mother & Baby.
 
The hospital is already billing Mr. Munoz.

Excerpt
In an interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper, Erick Muñoz acknowledged that he has been receiving medical bills at his home — although he’s not sure exactly what he will be expected to pay.
“They have not come to me and said how that’s going to work,” he told CNN. “But I believe I’ve heard several media outlets…saying that they’ve asked about that. They have asked that question. They said they would continue normal billing.”

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/01/30/3228561/brain-dead-texas-bills/

That's misleading, imo. We all know how insurance billing works. The hospital is billing the insurer and the insurer is sending a statement to the insured for the non-covered part of the bill. Unless the Munoz's were uninsured. Which I hope they weren't considering their jobs and the fact that they had a child and were pregnant with another.
 
Remotely viable?
Viable means able to survive outside the womb. Fetus was at 22 weeks and 5 days gestation. Fetuses are not considered viable until 24 weeks gestation.
Abnormal does not equal not viable.
Plenty of infants are viable with severe disabilities. And since there was no autpsy, we will never even know what exactly was wrong with the fetus.
Judge made his decision based on the fact that Marlise was legally dead. His decision had nothing to do with condition of the fetus.
Fetus could have been in perfect shape, but decision would have been the same.

I should have said if there was any chance the fetus would have been viable. I believe the "medical experts" knew there was no chance of that - even at 24 weeks.

I do believe if there was any possibility this fetus could have come to term or viability without "severe disabilities," the judge would have found a way to allow the disgusting travesty to continue. I think we all know the fetus was not in "perfect shape."

IMO, the judge ruled correctly, in terms of the interpretation of the law. But I do wonder how the hospital's legal experts misinterpreted that same law so horrifically.
 
I should have said if there was any chance the fetus would have been viable. I believe the "medical experts" knew there was no chance of that - even at 24 weeks.

I do believe if there was any possibility this fetus could have come to term or viability without "severe disabilities," the judge would have found a way to allow the disgusting travesty to continue. I think we all know the fetus was not in "perfect shape."

What would be the basis for this belief? There was no testimony from any medical expert suggesting fetus was never going to become viable.
The only thing hospital said is that fetus was not yet viable at the time of the hearing.
Even the lawyer for the father never claimed fetus wasn't going to ever become viable.
 
That's misleading, imo. We all know how insurance billing works. The hospital is billing the insurer and the insurer is sending a statement to the insured for the non-covered part of the bill. Unless the Munoz's were uninsured. Which I hope they weren't considering their jobs and the fact that they had a child and were pregnant with another.

If the mother was brain dead, would insurance even agree to pay for her life support? After all brain dead is legally dead. Life of the fetus isn't considered in that little equation.
 
If the mother was brain dead, would insurance even agree to pay for her life support? After all brain dead is legally dead. Life of the fetus isn't considered in that little equation.

Idk. The fact that state law mandates it makes it arguble, imo, that insurance would need to cover it.
 
Idk. The fact that state law mandates it makes it arguble, imo, that insurance would need to cover it.

State law mandates what? The law was misapplied by the hospital. It was hospital error. The hospital should eat the bills.

There is no language in the Texas law pertaining to brain death and insurance coverage. For instance NJ has the religious exclusion for brain death and in the law it is written that physicians and insurance cannot deny care or coverage, based on brain death criteria if there is a religious objection.
 
That's misleading, imo. We all know how insurance billing works. The hospital is billing the insurer and the insurer is sending a statement to the insured for the non-covered part of the bill. Unless the Munoz's were uninsured. Which I hope they weren't considering their jobs and the fact that they had a child and were pregnant with another.

It's what he argued for. I've never seen a case where a dead person is covered by insurance.
 
Since the John Peter Smith Hospital was following a particular interpretation of the law, I'm wondering if we should be looking at the attorney at the forefront of advising the hospital regarding what their actions should be.

Excerpt
"JPS’ legal counsel, Neal Adams, has taken a clear stance against abortion rights. According to the Star-Telegram, Adams “led the drive to end abortions at JPS in 1988,” and is also an advisory board member at the Northeast Tarrant County Right To Life Educational Association. According to the group’s website, its focus is to “educate the public on the value of human life from the moment of conception in the hope that the life of the unborn child will be protected from conception to natural birth.”

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...resented-by-anti-choice-lawyer-family-to-sue/

I have had a very sick feeling that, based on the advice of NA, JPS undertook a course of action to prolong the use of medical intervention from the time Marlise Munoz died until gestation was forced to the point of legal viability. Marlise died during the 14th week of her pregnancy. A fetus is considered viable at 24 to 26 weeks, and Monday would have marked the beginning of the 22nd week of gestation.

In arguments presented to the court, JPS was represented by Tarrant County ADA Larry M. Thompson (perhaps to put distance between NA and JPS in the mind of the public). One element of contention brought forward by lawyers representing the Munoz family was that "section of the health code that says “a person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment … from a pregnant patient” violates Marlise Muñoz’s Fourteenth Amendment right to privacy with regard to making decisions about her own body and equal protection under the law." (http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/23/5509944/texas-law-didnt-anticipate-dead.html)

In response, Thompson insisted that, even if Judge R. H. Wallace found that the law was unconstitutional, a final judgement could not be entered "for at least 45 days after the Texas attorney general’s office is notified, which would be Feb. 28." (http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/23/5509944/texas-law-didnt-anticipate-dead.html)

By which time, the fetus could be considered legally viable. The objective would have been reached no matter what the judicial ruling might have been.

At the same time, JPS seems to have found a way to avoid paying the costs incurred by their experiment. JPS has been simultaneously billing Mr. Munoz while inflicting grievous emotional pain on him and the other members of his family. (The steps JPS had likely taken to keep Marlise's body supporting the fetus have been described in detail upthread and, JMO, could in effect be seen as the defilement of a dead body.)

At a time when medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcy for families (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148), the billing of Mr. Munoz makes the intentions of JPS even more questionable. It's been estimated that the costs JPS has forced onto Mr. Munoz will be upwards of $300,000 (http://thehairpin.com/2014/01/after-a-lawsuit-texas-hospital-finally-lets-marlise-munoz-go). While he will receive some support from his firefighters association, that is an incredible amount of money to be expected to raise. The average annual salary for a paramedic is around $51,000 (http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Paramedic-l-Texas.html) which means that this could be an incredible financial burden to this man for far too many years. Unless, of course, he sues JPS. And wins a settlement.

Several studies have been done regarding actual costs for procedures done in hospitals vs. the billing for those procedures. In one study (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/16/high-health-care-costs.aspx) the chargemaster (a hospital's internal price list--see also Chargemaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was discussed. It has been found that in most, if not all cases, the costs for each item are highly inflated and are priced several times higher than the items would actually cost the hospital. This excessive charging for services, supplies, equipment usage, drugs, supplements, nutrition, medical procedures, diagnostic tests brings in revenue. When every pill, every tissue, every paper cup of water, is charged, costs skyrocket. It boggles the mind to consider how many procedures and IVs and diagnostic tests Marlise would have undergone since November. The costs for insurance companies is negotiated. The costs for someone who is uninsured, for instance a dead person, are to be paid in full. For example, in the study I'm referencing (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/16/high-health-care-costs.aspx), 3 CT scans would cost Medicare $825. For an individual who earned a little too much to be covered by Medicare but could not afford other insurance, the cost would be $7,000.

The possibility of a settlement aside, if the administration of JPS felt so compelled to continue staggeringly expensive care for an unviable fetus within a dead woman for months should their CFO not have approached the state Texas to find out how much of the costs the state was willing to pay?

When insurance companies will normally cease to cover medical expenses once a client is dead, just who did JPS administrators, and advisors, think would be picking up the tab?
 
Since the John Peter Smith Hospital was following a particular interpretation of the law, I'm wondering if we should be looking at the attorney at the forefront of advising the hospital regarding what their actions should be.

Excerpt
"JPS’ legal counsel, Neal Adams, has taken a clear stance against abortion rights. According to the Star-Telegram, Adams “led the drive to end abortions at JPS in 1988,” and is also an advisory board member at the Northeast Tarrant County Right To Life Educational Association. According to the group’s website, its focus is to “educate the public on the value of human life from the moment of conception in the hope that the life of the unborn child will be protected from conception to natural birth.”

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2...resented-by-anti-choice-lawyer-family-to-sue/

I have had a very sick feeling that, based on the advice of NA, JPS undertook a course of action to prolong the use of medical intervention from the time Marlise Munoz died until gestation was forced to the point of legal viability. Marlise died during the 14th week of her pregnancy. A fetus is considered viable at 24 to 26 weeks, and Monday would have marked the beginning of the 22nd week of gestation.

In arguments presented to the court, JPS was represented by Tarrant County ADA Larry M. Thompson (perhaps to put distance between NA and JPS in the mind of the public). One element of contention brought forward by lawyers representing the Munoz family was that "section of the health code that says “a person may not withdraw or withhold life-sustaining treatment … from a pregnant patient” violates Marlise Muñoz’s Fourteenth Amendment right to privacy with regard to making decisions about her own body and equal protection under the law." (http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/23/5509944/texas-law-didnt-anticipate-dead.html)

In response, Thompson insisted that, even if Judge R. H. Wallace found that the law was unconstitutional, a final judgement could not be entered "for at least 45 days after the Texas attorney general’s office is notified, which would be Feb. 28." (http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/01/23/5509944/texas-law-didnt-anticipate-dead.html)

By which time, the fetus could be considered legally viable. The objective would have been reached no matter what the judicial ruling might have been.

At the same time, JPS seems to have found a way to avoid paying the costs incurred by their experiment. JPS has been simultaneously billing Mr. Munoz while inflicting grievous emotional pain on him and the other members of his family. (The steps JPS had likely taken to keep Marlise's body supporting the fetus have been described in detail upthread and, JMO, could in effect be seen as the defilement of a dead body.)

At a time when medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcy for families (http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148), the billing of Mr. Munoz makes the intentions of JPS even more questionable. It's been estimated that the costs JPS has forced onto Mr. Munoz will be upwards of $300,000 (http://thehairpin.com/2014/01/after-a-lawsuit-texas-hospital-finally-lets-marlise-munoz-go). While he will receive some support from his firefighters association, that is an incredible amount of money to be expected to raise. The average annual salary for a paramedic is around $51,000 (http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Paramedic-l-Texas.html) which means that this could be an incredible financial burden to this man for far too many years. Unless, of course, he sues JPS. And wins a settlement.

Several studies have been done regarding actual costs for procedures done in hospitals vs. the billing for those procedures. In one study (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/16/high-health-care-costs.aspx) the chargemaster (a hospital's internal price list--see also Chargemaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) was discussed. It has been found that in most, if not all cases, the costs for each item are highly inflated and are priced several times higher than the items would actually cost the hospital. This excessive charging for services, supplies, equipment usage, drugs, supplements, nutrition, medical procedures, diagnostic tests brings in revenue. When every pill, every tissue, every paper cup of water, is charged, costs skyrocket. It boggles the mind to consider how many procedures and IVs and diagnostic tests Marlise would have undergone since November. The costs for insurance companies is negotiated. The costs for someone who is uninsured, for instance a dead person, are to be paid in full. For example, in the study I'm referencing (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/16/high-health-care-costs.aspx), 3 CT scans would cost Medicare $825. For an individual who earned a little too much to be covered by Medicare but could not afford other insurance, the cost would be $7,000.

The possibility of a settlement aside, if the administration of JPS felt so compelled to continue staggeringly expensive care for an unviable fetus within a dead woman for months should their CFO not have approached the state Texas to find out how much of the costs the state was willing to pay?

When insurance companies will normally cease to cover medical expenses once a client is dead, just who did JPS administrators, and advisors, think would be picking up the tab?

Thank you. And I am 100% positive that these men have mever been pregnant, legally dead or in a situation even remotely like that of Erick Munoz.
 

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