TX - pregnant wife unresponsive on life support, husband hopes to fulfill her wishes

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
His position may have been the same all along - although we don't know that. However, I very much doubt the judge's decision would have been what it was had the fetus been even remotely viable. I really don't think we'll ever know.

In any case, it's a moot point.
Remotely viable?
Viable means able to survive outside the womb. Fetus was at 22 weeks and 5 days gestation. Fetuses are not considered viable until 24 weeks gestation.
Abnormal does not equal not viable.
Plenty of infants are viable with severe disabilities. And since there was no autpsy, we will never even know what exactly was wrong with the fetus.
Judge made his decision based on the fact that Marlise was legally dead. His decision had nothing to do with condition of the fetus.
Fetus could have been in perfect shape, but decision would have been the same.
 
Mr Munoz has a medical background. He and his wife talked about what they wanted if this ever happened. I can not see their minds changing for their children unless there was hope. His medical awareness would give him enough to know that there was very little hope for the baby. He was able to figure out from the start that the baby would only suffer in the end. Why not let baby go with mommy.

Because if you let "this" baby go with mommy, you have to let "that" baby go with mommy. Regardless if the baby is 7 mos, perfect, wanted, etc., etc. Right now the law in tx is if the mother is brain dead and pregnant, life support can be terminated shortly. Nothing else needs to be considered, including the father's/family's wishes, the viability of the fetus, whether it's healthy or not, and so on.
 
Because if you let "this" baby go with mommy, you have to let "that" baby go with mommy. Regardless if the baby is 7 mos, perfect, wanted, etc., etc. Right now the law in tx is if the mother is brain dead and pregnant, life support can be terminated shortly. Nothing else needs to be considered, including the father's/family's wishes, the viability of the fetus, whether it's healthy or not, and so on.

And even Munoz fetus could have become viable shortly. Apparently it was not brain dead.
Abnormal legs don't prevent viability.
And without autopsy the condition of the fetus will never be clear. Sometimes ultrasounds are wrong regarding abnormalities.
 
It was reported in the early news of the case that she had gone without oxygen for an hour, some reports said longer. She got up to give their son a bottle, maybe he looked at the clock at that time. Here's one from the family in the last few days.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/354528/250/Pregnant-woman-taken-off-life-support-husband-speaks

still not sure how he knows how long. Even if he knew when she got up and when he realized she hadn't returned, that wouldn't tell him when she collapsed. Could have been minutes before he found her. Wonder why he thinks he knows how long.
 
I guess hospital staff is basing this on the husband's account.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/08/us/pregnant-and-forced-to-stay-on-life-support.html?_r=0
Mr. Machado said he had been told by the hospital’s medical team that his daughter might have gone an hour or longer without breathing before her husband woke and discovered her, a situation he believes has seriously impaired the fetus. “We know there’s a heartbeat, but that’s all we know,” he said.
 

I suppose she could have been w/o oxygen for any period of time between when she got up and when she was found without oxygen. Wonder why the dad says the hospital picked an hour or more. Even assuming the dad knows exactly when she got up and when she was found. He still doesn't know what happened in between.

For the hospital to say up to an hour, it would have to be based on something other than the dad's accounting, imo. eta: unless "could have" is the key.
 
The family's heartbreak began on Nov. 26, when Munoz got out of bed in the middle of the night because her 14-month-old son, Mateo, began to cry, Machado said. When the baby continued to cry and Munoz didn't return, Munoz's firefighter husband got up too. That's when he found Munoz on the kitchen floor. She was not breathing and had no pulse. Her skin had taken on a bluish color, Machado said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mourni...rain-dead-mother-now/story?id=22253935&page=2
 
I suppose she could have been w/o oxygen for any period of time between when she got up and when she was found without oxygen. Wonder why the dad says the hospital picked an hour or more. Even assuming the dad knows exactly when she got up and when she was found. He still doesn't know what happened in between.

For the hospital to say up to an hour, it would have to be based on something other than the dad's accounting, imo. eta: unless "could have" is the key.

It was likely based on tests done at the hospital, one being arterial blood gases.

Arterial blood gases (ABGs) are often required in sick patients. They may help make a diagnosis, indicate the severity of a condition and help to assess treatment. ABGs provide the following information:

Oxygenation
Adequacy of ventilation
Acid-base levels

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Arterial-Blood-Gases-Indications-and-Interpretation.htm
 
I find it particularly intersting in that TX law would apply to woman in a coma or PVS, but not to a brain dead woman. Even though there could be very little difference between these states in terms of what patient can do.
Someone in a coma or PVS would could just lie there not doing anything, just like a brain dead person would.
Yet TX law says their fetus must be considered, regardless of what family wants.
If Mrs. Munoz had one brain wave she'd still be hooked up to life support today.
 
still not sure how he knows how long. Even if he knew when she got up and when he realized she hadn't returned, that wouldn't tell him when she collapsed. Could have been minutes before he found her. Wonder why he thinks he knows how long.

I think your questions may be blending two different things.

It would be possible for Marlise not to have been found on the kitchen floor for an hour after having left the bed to make the bottle. It is also possible that EM may have felt that it was an hour rather than having objective proof of the real time that had elapsed rather than the real time that had elapsed. So, it is possible that he could have been mistaken in the real length of time that occurred.

However, EM's perception of how much time elapsed between Marlise hearing the baby and getting up to make the bottle and when he found her lying unconscious in the kitchen does not equal the number of nanoseconds, seconds, and minutes that Marlise had actually stopped breathing. The time that elapsed between Marlise's last full breath and the time that EM discovered her is unknown because no one was with Marlise when she suffered the suspected embolism and collapsed. EM did not see the onset of the event, nor did he see when she stopped breathing. He got to her after she had stopped breathing, so EM's experience is of the longer time of her absence rather than the shorter time of her medical emergency.

The estimate of an hour, IMO, simply provides an outer framework of time within which the event of the suspected embolism and subsequent breathing problems happened. My guess is that, although she was found alive, Marlise could have stopped breathing several minutes before EM found her and began performing CPR. After one minute without oxygen, brain cells die but survival is possible. After three minutes without oxygen, serious brain damage is likely. After ten minutes without oxygen, many brain cells are dead, survival less likely. After fifteen minutes, survival unlikely. (http://www.transweb.org/faq/q3.shtml) IIRC, the fetus would survive on the oxygen still available from the placenta although that supply would have been seriously depleted by Marlise's own oxygen deprivation.

Furthermore, I don't think that EM's estimate of the length of the time frame had much importance to the people treating Marlise other than as an approximation of time during which she had been affected. It would be illogical in the extreme, IMO, to ask a stressed husband for this kind of information and expect an accurate answer, even if he was an experienced EMT.

JMO, but I think all the medical professionals involved in treating Marlise would have made their own assessments as to her physical status according to set protocols before coming to any conclusions. I believe that from those conclusions they would have determined her status and subsequent treatments. My guess is that in the circumstances, the timeline that EM gave them had only a cursory influence on the treatments given to Marlise, if that.

Could the many experienced medical practitioners, current and retired, correct any mistakes I've made with this theory?
 
Family speaks to Anderson Cooper.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/...oz-shares-details-of-their-tragedy/?hpt=ac_t1


:cry:

Interesting how they discuss her condition. She was deteriorating and they could smell death. :cry:

She also coded at the hospital again.

I feel so bad for what the family endured. The interview was painful. I can't even imagine having to endure what they went through. It's quite apparent that Mr. Munoz and Mrs. Munoz's mother, are quite intelligent people and understood things from a medical perspective.
 
Erick Muñoz said Marlise did have one life goal, and that was to fly in an F-16 fighter jet. Marlise’s father was in the military, so it was a conversation that came up often.

Erick hopes to one day make Marlise’s wish to ride in a fighter jet come true.

“She made me a better man, and I thank her for it. I thank her very much,” he said.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Erick-Munoz-discusses-his-familys-heartbreaking-ordeal-242326941.html

Mr. Munoz seems like a very wise man. My heart goes out to him and his family.
 
Family speaks to Anderson Cooper.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/...oz-shares-details-of-their-tragedy/?hpt=ac_t1


:cry:

Interesting how they discuss her condition. She was deteriorating and they could smell death. :cry:

Thankfully I have never smelled a dead human. However, having been raised on a ranch, I have smelled dead animals. I cannot imagine how horrible it was for the family to smell that odor coming from a loved one. That entire situation just goes way beyond torture.

How anyone, much less the doctors, could believe a fetus/baby could possibly live under those circumstances, I'll never understand.
 
Thankfully I have never smelled a dead human. However, having been raised on a ranch, I have smelled dead animals. I cannot imagine how horrible it was for the family to smell that odor coming from a loved one. That entire situation just goes way beyond torture.

How anyone, much less the doctors, could believe a fetus/baby could possibly live under those circumstances, I'll never understand.

How can I believe fetus could live under those circumstances? For one, fetus was still alive up until the time life support was discontinued.
So fetus obviously lived under those circumstances.
It has been done before resulting in delivery of normal infants. In several recent cases, mother was declared brain dead at 15 weeks gestation, only one week more than Mrs. Munoz.
So I can add two and two together.
 
How can I believe fetus could live under those circumstances? For one, fetus was still alive up until the time life support was discontinued.
So fetus obviously lived under those circumstances.
It has been done before resulting in delivery of normal infants. In several recent cases, mother was declared brain dead at 15 weeks gestation, only one week more than Mrs. Munoz.
So I can add two and two together.

Respectfully & JMO, you are entitled to your opinion just as I am entitled to mine. I just hope you are never in the position of being forced into smelling one of your loved ones rotting away. Again, JMO, no one should be FORCED to endure what the Munoz & Machado families have.
 
I find it particularly intersting in that TX law would apply to woman in a coma or PVS, but not to a brain dead woman. Even though there could be very little difference between these states in terms of what patient can do.
Someone in a coma or PVS would could just lie there not doing anything, just like a brain dead person would.
Yet TX law says their fetus must be considered, regardless of what family wants.
If Mrs. Munoz had one brain wave she'd still be hooked up to life support today.

There are a lot of hormonal and metabolic processes which are mediated by or in the brain. So though a brain dead patient and a patient in a coma might both be just lying there "not doing anything" the brain dead patient is nevertheless doing far less in terms of hormonal/metabolic activity which could impact the status of the fetus.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
142
Guests online
1,847
Total visitors
1,989

Forum statistics

Threads
600,219
Messages
18,105,389
Members
230,991
Latest member
lyle.person1
Back
Top