Found Deceased TX - Thomas Brown, 18, Hemphill County, 23 Nov 2016 #2

[Razz]

If the luminol testing was "presumptive only" - and/or if it did not lead to additional testing that proved conclusive for the presence of blood in the carpet, then it seems unlikely that any person was ever wounded or killed (by firearm) while sitting inside the Durango. So, there may not be much to Klein's scenario where somebody "sneaks up beside the driver's side door in the school parking lot". Yet that is about the time that the phone was turned off...

Back to the .25 cal casing though. An absence of blood in the carpet would not necessarily mean that a .25 acp could not have been fired from inside the car toward a target outside. Maybe in a self defense situation, or some other kind of altercation? But if either of those scenarios did happen, who would've been involved?

There are just ZERO reasons that I can think of for the .25 cal casing to have been in TB's car. It drives me crazy!

Tom was not outdoorsy. Supposedly nobody in his family owned a .25 acp. I don't think the kind of kids he was hanging out with (in a town like Canadian) were the kind of kids that were typically packing heat when they cruised around town. I just think it's highly unlikely (though not impossible) that Tom could've had a .25 acp

Could the casing have been there from the car's previous owner (if it was purchased used)? Where was the casing found, on the floorboard, or in a hard-to-see/hard-to-find crevice under a seat? Was the casing dusted for prints and tested for DNA?

If the casing was (was) from a handgun that TB had somehow managed to obtain (possibly borrowed or purchased?), where/who would he have gotten it from? If TB had purchased a .25 acp from a local gun dealer, surely that info would've been made public by now (even if "registration" is not actually required to own a gun). If he bought a gun, maybe he did so at a local gun show? But you're back to why? if TB did somehow obtain a .25 acp, why would he have wanted or felt he needed to do so?

And almost nobody would buy a .25 acp - the equivalent of a pea shooter - for self defense; and even fewer I think would choose that sized weapon for self harm. Seems there'd be a risk / fear that you might somehow survive the wound. Again, I just don't think Tom had a .25 acp.

I assume the owner of Gun Barrel Sports (NL, I believe) would have had access to a .25 acp. Could one or two of TB's friends also have had indirect access to a .25 acp, either via gun dealer (SP), or a gun owned by a family member (MC)? There was more than one character in the story who was either in - or related to - somebody who was in the gun business

And is it true that JC used a .25 acp two weeks after Tom's remain were found? I read this in a March 7, 2019 article on KATP 101.9's thebullamarillo.com site. If so, that makes three possibly sources for a .25 acp handgun back in November 2016.

Or could the casing have been planted by somebody? If so, who might've had both a reason and opportunity to do that?

There are many clues, unanswered questions, and other facets of this case (besides the gun casing) that, if solved, could help us learn the truth about what happened to Tom that night: the 2015 encounter with then-Deputy Nathan Lewis outside the Palace Theater; the various sightings of the SUV that November night; and the timing, location, and condition of the three key items found over the next year and a half (after the Durango was found): the backpack, the cell phone, and Tom's remains.

Sorry nothing but a lot of questions. I guess that's an admission that I lack the required sleuthing skills to be able to answer many of my own questions.. It's a very frustrating case. I hope that eventually there is justice for Tom and his family.

Jmo

I disagree with your assessment of your sleuthing skills. They are very good.

JC is in the teacher and Dad of M? Correct? That is VERY interesting about the gun he may or may not have been using 2 weeks after TB went missing.
If that is true we need to get that hammered down.

 

[OutWest]

JC didn't use a 25 caliber; used a different caliber from a family owned gun.

ALL investigators clearly know that luminol is presumptive and they clearly know that they must follow up with conclusive lab tests for it to be positively verified and admissible as evidence in court. Klein stated it was blood and that it was Tom's blood. If he knew it was Tom's blood then he must have had subsequent lab tests conducted. BUT through all of the controversy and debate I never heard him say that his conclusion was PROVEN by forensic lab analysis. Klein should clarify.

Rush4087, I agree that it is possible to have very little blood from a 25 ACP wound, just depends on the location and path of the bullet. In any case, 25 ACP's do not cause massive tissue damage like larger, higher velocity cartridges. 25 ACP would be similar to being stabbed with a 1/4" screw driver (.25"); definitely lethal but not to the extent of something like a 357 magnum or similar. Not even close.

As far as the casing that was found inside the vehicle, IMO based on the circumstances I think it's 99.9% that the casing is material evidence and that it originated by the hand of somebody other than Tom. Because the casing was found in the vehicle, it is most logical (to me) that he was shot while inside the vehicle (if Tom shot himself, where is the gun?). Klein's luminol very likely may have indicated blood; he just needs to say, "the positive indication from luminol was verified by subsequent lab tests to be blood".

 

[Rush4087]

JC didn't use a 25 caliber; used a different caliber from a family owned gun.

ALL investigators clearly know that luminol is presumptive and they clearly know that they must follow up with conclusive lab tests for it to be positively verified and admissible as evidence in court. Klein stated it was blood and that it was Tom's blood. If he knew it was Tom's blood then he must have had subsequent lab tests conducted. BUT through all of the controversy and debate I never heard him say that his conclusion was PROVEN by forensic lab analysis. Klein should clarify.

Rush4087, I agree that it is possible to have very little blood from a 25 ACP wound, just depends on the location and path of the bullet. In any case, 25 ACP's do not cause massive tissue damage like larger, higher velocity cartridges. 25 ACP would be similar to being stabbed with a 1/4" screw driver (.25"); definitely lethal but not to the extent of something like a 357 magnum or similar. Not even close.

As far as the casing that was found inside the vehicle, IMO based on the circumstances I think it's 99.9% that the casing is material evidence and that it originated by the hand of somebody other than Tom. Because the casing was found in the vehicle, it is most logical (to me) that he was shot while inside the vehicle (if Tom shot himself, where is the gun?). Klein's luminol very likely may have indicated blood; he just needs to say, "the positive indication from luminol was verified by subsequent lab tests to be blood".

Interesting that JC didn't use an .25 acp. I wonder where bullamarillo.com got their incorrect information? If you don't mind, where did you learn that JC "used a different caliber, from a family gun"? TIA

If the casing does have relevance though (and if JC can be excluded as a possible source) it might narrow (admittedly only) the most obvious sources for any possible gun (gun dealers who were in some way related to the case, anyway - as I realize there could be several non-dealers in Canadian who own a .25 acp) down to just two: NL and SP.

I know that's far, far from conclusive, and maybe I'm headed down a rabbit hole trying to source a possibly non-existent gun, but how else could a .25 cal casing have ended up in Tom Brown's SUV? I not only don't think TB had one, but no gun was found with the remains. Jmo

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

MimosaMornings - It was Michael Caseltine's debit card (not credit) per Episode 2 of Tom Brown's Body. It seemed like that losing his debit card was a regular occurrence for Michael according to the podcast.
Tom Brown’s Body, Chapter 2: Tom’s Loop
Lewis, however, did spy Michael Caseltine’s debit card, which had fallen between the front seats.

inmyhumbleopinion -- Your theory seems pretty sound. If it turns out to be a hate crime (think it is a federal offense) would a trial take place in federal court?

Thank you, though I’m not so sure any more . I have been reading everyone’s posts, trying to get caught up this afternoon and once again, I am reminded how different this case is, IMO, from most of the missing person or unsolved cases I have followed.

It has been over four years, and I haven’t even settled on a theory. I do believe that this is a homicide case, but I’m not sure if there was intent or who the shooter was (I do believe that a gun was used). I also believe that there was a cover-up. I was listening to Chapter Five, “Unusual Suspects” of “Tom Brown’s Body” again earlier today and feel very strongly that there was. I am not the biggest fan of Philip Klein, but I’d take Klein over Nathan Lewis any day; Lewis is corrupt, incompetent and lazy, IMO.

By the way, at around 22:30 of Chapter Five, Skip Hollandsworth calls Lewis and talks to him about all the stories about him circulating. The way he acts during that conversation is so different than when Skip tells him at around 18:50 in Chapter Eight, “The Remains,” about Klein’s supposition that he was involved in a cover-up. Obviously, it doesn’t prove anything, but it’s interesting nonetheless.
Tom Brown’s Body, Chapter 5: Unusual Suspects
Tom Brown’s Body, Chapter 8: The Remains

And yes, if it turns out to be a hate crime and prosecuted under the federal hate crime statute, assuming that it took place in Hemphill county, the case would be presented to a federal grand jury in Amarillo first. If the grand jury finds probable cause, and there is an indictment, then the trial would also be in Amarillo, but “[m]ore than 90 percent of defendants plead guilty rather than go to trial. If a defendant pleads guilty in return for the government agreeing to drop certain charges or to recommend a lenient sentence, the agreement often is called a ‘plea bargain.’”

In fact, the following press release is about a case that is being prosecuted by a team lead by the U.S. Attorney that also serves Hemphill county. It reads, in part:
“‘These defendants used Grindr to single out their victim based on sexual orientation – something the Northern District of Texas simply will not tolerate,’ said U.S. Attorney Erin Nealy Cox for the Northern District of Texas. ‘Unfortunately, this is not the first time a dating app user has fallen victim to a violent crime. I’m urging the public to be vigilant about the dangers lurking online.’”
Two Dallas Men Plead Guilty to Hate Crimes After Using Dating App to Target Gay Men for Violent Crimes

Texas actually has its own hate-crimes law, James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Act, but between 2001 and 2017, only eight cases were found to have been successfully prosecuted:
Hate crime law results in few convictions and lots of disappointment
CODE OF CRIMINAL PROCEDURE CHAPTER 42. JUDGMENT AND SENTENCE

 

[OutWest]

Rush4087 ..... there were crazy rumors about the JC death flying around in early 2019 that was disturbing and hurtful to the Castletine family. Mrs. Castletine posted that it was a family owned 9mm handgun in order to quell the misinformation. Also, I heard it from another person close to the case, 9mm.

Also, a person must be at least 21 years of age to purchase a handgun from a FFL dealer. In my lifetime I've never seen any any licensed dealers that even mess with the 25 ACP junk. Most of the 25's that are owned by people are from many years past. Most likely, the person who would elect to carry a 25 ACP would be somebody who had access to ONLY that gun and probably acquired it by cheap sale/trade from individual, theft, family owned for years, etc.

 

[OutWest]

inmyhumbleopinion, I also see a lot of possibilities and haven't settled on a firm detailed theory other than homicide. Skip Hollandsworth says he has not either. The upcoming Grand Jury will reportedly be chiefly to put a number of people on the witness stand, under oath and under penalty of the law, to attempt to determine who is lying. My son recently pointed out the principle of Occam's Razor which states, in general, that you should not add any “entity” to the hypotheses without necessity. Simply said, Occam’s razor says that other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones. The “razor” term indicates that unnecessary competing assumptions should be eliminated. The simplest explanation is usually the right one. Key word is USUALLY. In an increasingly complex world, the simplest explanation may not always be the right one. It just means that you should begin with the simplest explanation. If many known factors cannot be explained within the simplest theory, you should move to the next simplest hypotheses that may explain the unknown factors. And so on.

Just some food for thought:

1. Tom was killed by two or three “young” people whom he knew but were not within his social circle of close friends but had some reason to harbor resentment toward him. He was being surveilled until such time that he was alone and could be confronted (covert). Murder possibly was not initially intended but something got out of hand during the confrontation and Tom died. Parents of the people involved assert that the death was “accidental” and are covering for their children. Severe incompetence and lack of training within the HCSO has bungled the case and is the primary reason that the case has been unsolved.

But, it seems hard to believe that so many strange coincidences could simply just happen. Especially the issues surrounding the failure to collect evidence, the destruction of evidence, and the magical appearance of evidence. Then one must consider the ongoing narratives regarding “runaway” and “suicide” despite circumstances that indicate to the contrary. Then later adopting the bizarre theory that Tom’s family was somehow involved in hiding his body and covering up a suicide while pointing fingers at others. To explain these anomalies, we must move to the next step.


2. Same basic theory as #1 but a large portion of the local investigative incompetence was intentional for the purpose of providing cover for the child (or children) of an influential resident(s).

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

Did anyone else find it odd how the FBI agents grilled Christian Webb about the theory that Tom had run away to Denver and was using Nate's phone to communicate with her? Since they knew she was texting Nate's phone why didn't they investigate in Denver to confirm who was using that phone? Seems that could have been determined vs raking Christian over the coals.
It surprised me that Skip didn't talk with Macy Patterson (or perhaps she declined to be interviewed) about the Denver connection.

I’m so glad you said something about this because yes, I thought the same thing. I’m listening to the relevant part of the podcast right now, and Skip is explaining that after LE reviewed Christian’s phone records for the period of 12/31/16 to 4/6/17 and saw that she was texting with who they determined to be Nate, a teenager living in Denver, Colorado, they developed a theory that Tom was using his phone to talk to Christian, so they followed her in a black suburban for weeks and then took her down to the campus police station, confiscated her phone and grilled her for four hours.

No indication as to whether LE made contact with Nate or Macy.

Then the day Christian was interviewed on campus, her parents go out to dinner at a local restaurant in back in Canadian, and around the same time, Lewis shows up at the same restaurant with his family. He tells Christian’s parents he is sorry she had to be treated the way she was, she is now cleared, and that he knows Tom has run off with an older man to Colorado. Skip says when he asked Lewis about the conversation, he denied ever suggesting that Tom was with an older man or that he was in Colorado.

I wonder if they will ask him that same question when he testifies in front of grand jury .

Christian and her family were harassed, IMO. I don’t, for a second, think Christian is involved in Tom’s disappearance or knows what happened to him. I think she dropped him and the other friend off at their cars and went straight home or wherever she had to be next. But maybe there is something she heard or saw that night that certain people do not want to become public knowledge.

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

So I was just listening to Chapter 4, “Lake Marvin Road” and noticed something I didn’t the first time I listened to it.

According to Skip, Kaleb King wouldn't do an interview with him because he was tired of talking about the case. But Kaleb allowed Skip to use a recorded interview he did in 2017 with Laurie Brown of The Canadian Record.

At around 31:30, Kaleb is talking about when he was interviewed by the Texas Rangers and FBI and says he offered to take a polygraph. He then goes on to say, “And after that, I kind of figured, OK, so these guys don’t have jack if they aren’t going to polygraph me.”

Huh.
Tom Brown’s Body, Chapter 4: Lake Marvin Road

 

[8th Bob-White]

OutWest -- The luminol discrepancies bug me, too. I've listened to the AG meeting a few times and need to listen to that part again...the sound quality varies & it's tough for me to hear some things even with headphones. As I recall, the AG's office states that the only blood in the Durango was the small spot on the drivers' door (found on the initial search), but Klein states that he continues to disagree. I'm not clear if either the AG's investigators or Klein's team followed up with forensic tests, but would the AG's team say that was the only blood if they hadn't forensically tested it also?
I like your theories on what may have happened & am also not sure whether it was mostly incompetence that botched the investigation or a full blown coverup from the very beginning.

inmyhumbleopinion -- Agree wholeheartedly with:

I am not the biggest fan of Philip Klein, but I’d take Klein over Nathan Lewis any day; Lewis is corrupt, incompetent and lazy, IMO.

If Klein wasn't brought in would Lewis have just convinced everyone that Penny was crazy?
Thanks for clarifying the info on the grand jury (District Court = Pampa, Federal Court = Amarillo)
Christian's interrogation was particularly disturbing to me as a mom, grad of OSU & many family members who have attended OSU. I could picture it happening and could hear in her voice what a toll it had taken on her. I believe the words spoken by Christian's mom. Lewis was spouting out his goose chase theories and then denying he ever said it.

 

[Meligator]

I’m so glad you said something about this because yes, I thought the same thing. I’m listening to the relevant part of the podcast right now, and Skip is explaining that after LE reviewed Christian’s phone records for the period of 12/31/16 to 4/6/17 and saw that she was texting with who they determined to be Nate, a teenager living in Denver, Colorado, they developed a theory that Tom was using his phone to talk to Christian, so they followed her in a black suburban for weeks and then took her down to the campus police station, confiscated her phone and grilled her for four hours.

No indication as to whether LE made contact with Nate or Macy.

Then the day Christian was interviewed on campus, her parents go out to dinner at a local restaurant in back in Canadian, and around the same time, Lewis shows up at the same restaurant with his family. He tells Christian’s parents he is sorry she had to be treated the way she was, she is now cleared, and that he knows Tom has run off with an older man to Colorado. Skip says when he asked Lewis about the conversation, he denied ever suggesting that Tom was with an older man or that he was in Colorado.

I wonder if they will ask him that same question when he testifies in front of grand jury .

Christian and her family were harassed, IMO. I don’t, for a second, think Christian is involved in Tom’s disappearance or knows what happened to him. I think she dropped him and the other friend off at their cars and went straight home or wherever she had to be next. But maybe there is something she heard or saw that night that certain people do not want to become public knowledge.

I get the feeling police were just interrogating people about crazy theories, hoping to scare them into divulging information they may be withholding or to see how they react.

Personally, I think the suicide theory is ridiculous given there was no gun or weapon found near his body (and someone identified a location where his phone was found).

 

[Meligator]

So I was just listening to Chapter 4, “Lake Marvin Road” and noticed something I didn’t the first time I listened to it.

According to Skip, Kaleb King wouldn't do an interview with him because he was tired of talking about the case. But Kaleb allowed Skip to use a recorded interview he did in 2017 with Laurie Brown of The Canadian Record.

At around 31:30, Kaleb is talking about when he was interviewed by the Texas Rangers and FBI and says he offered to take a polygraph. He then goes on to say, “And after that, I kind of figured, OK, so these guys don’t have jack if they aren’t going to polygraph me.”

Huh.
Tom Brown’s Body, Chapter 4: Lake Marvin Road

yup, they are looking for someone to refuse a polygraph in order to use the refusal as evidence of guilt.

 

[OutWest]

I get the feeling police were just interrogating people about crazy theories, hoping to scare them into divulging information they may be withholding or to see how they react. ).

I agree very much, especially concerning, FBI, TR's, and AG interviews.

The interviews start out very congenial and friendly. "Let's discuss every detail that you know over the next several hours. Would you care for a bottle of water or a snack?" "Write down every detail that you know." "It has been a long day. Thank you very much for your time and cooperation, by the way, will you submit to a simple, routine polygraph exam that we can schedule for next week?" (If I don't agree to a polygraph, they may think I am hiding something .... oh well, they seem so friendly. So I agree to polygraph). Polygraph is scheduled 1-2 weeks later which gives interviewers time to review statements and prepare but also allows time for the person-of-interest to worry, fret, and become apprehensive about the upcoming exam regardless of whether or not they are hiding anything. Finally some days later the polygraph occurs. During the post interview things are no longer friendly and congenial. Investigators do not have to be truthful during the interview. They may or may not be truthful with their assertions. "The polygraph clearly indicated that you are hiding something, you have not been truthful. A part of your written statement conflicts with your verbal statement, and so on. The instrument recorded deception several times over the course of the exam. Come clean. We think this is what you actually done .....", etc.

Depending on the individual, when they are under such pressure they experience various degrees of tunnel vision, stress, and sometimes confusion. Investigators analyze these reactions of which are recorded on video. The results of the polygraph are not admissible in court because they are many times not accurate or wholly reliable. But the real value of the polygraph is that it part of a tactic used by investigators to elicit more information during the post-interview; sometimes resulting in confessions and sometimes clearing an individual. Most times the tactic works to either eliminate a person from suspicion or to verify that suspicion is warranted.

 

[Razz]

I get the feeling police were just interrogating people about crazy theories, hoping to scare them into divulging information they may be withholding or to see how they react.

Personally, I think the suicide theory is ridiculous given there was no gun or weapon found near his body (and someone identified a location where his phone was found).

But that's just the thing. Everyone is assuming TB was shot. What evidence do we have of that? A spent cartridge in his car, a small amount of blood, and he was discovered deceased some miles away?
So...
1). Where is the bullet? Did investigators thoroughly search the area where TB was found? Did they thoroughly search his car? Autopsy of TB shows no bullet holes in the skull or anywhere else.
2). What is the motive for someone to shoot TB?
3). Suicide is a huge possibility. Why?! a). It was the first thing Penny thought when speaking to LE. Why? Because suicide runs on her side of the family.
b). TB was known to be distraught by his Mom and his girlfriend c). The girlfriend called him that night to ask if he was OK. d). A suicide hotline had been called from TB's phone that night. e). Was a gun ever found to match the casing that was found in his car?
4). IMO, I believe TB's phone was dumped or planted by LE as they had it and never entered it into evidence after they found it. Best to get rid of it so independent searchers could "find it" the next day during Private Investigator Klein's organized search.
5). Where Tom was found is imo the most confounding aspect of this case as it was so far away from his car. But could he have hiked there? We don't really know the path he took that night. Dogs can be unreliable. It was cold that night. Did he lay down and cover himself up with leaves to keep warm in the area where he was found, subsequently dying of hypothermia? That would explain the absence of a gun. And if this happened, couldn't it be classified as an accidental death,?

Imo, the above scenario is as plausible as the, "he was murdered and dumped." 4 years of investigation has not yet netted a killer, a gun, a bullet or a motive. All jmo from another angle.

 

[Valiant]

I think if (and it’s a big if) Tom committed suicide, someone helped by driving his Durango away from the body. Maybe someone met up with him, they drove to the more secluded spot and Tom shot himself. The other person panics and drives back closer to civilization and drops the car off.
This could explain a lot, but I think my scenario above is unlikely to have happened.

 

[OutWest]

Just my thoughts. I have tried to look at all angles from an unbiased viewpoint. For what it's worth, when I apply Occam's Razor to the homicide vs. suicide theories, ..... suicide is quickly eliminated because of the extreme complexity, coordination, and bizarre actions that would have to take place in order to make most of the "parts" fit.

 

[inmyhumbleopinion]

I keep going thinking back to the Luminol "controversy". Some posts on another site (of which I don't participate in) go on, and on, and on debating whether the Klein's luminol tests detected blood or paint residue. It is a mystery to me that there is any controversy over the Luminol. Let me explain: Luminol is a presumptive test because it will react to certain substances other than blood, including some paints. If luminol "lights up" then investigators follow up with other tests such as another presumptive test involving phenolphthalein (simple field test) to further narrow the possibilities. If the possible presence of blood is still indicated, samples are (or should be) sent to a forensic lab for conclusive tests. If those lab results are conclusive for blood, DNA can possibly be extracted to determine who's blood it is.
1. This is not Philip Klein's first rodeo. He is experienced and knows full well that subsequent tests are required to prove that the material is blood. Klein stated that he sent photos to some organization (I don't recall the name) for review but he did not state that actual samples were conclusively analyzed in a forensic lab. Maybe they were, I don't know. However he had that opportunity to clarify how he knew the samples were blood when he recently joined the luminol debate on another social site, but he didn't.
2. This is not the OAG investigators first rodeo. They are experienced and know full well that subsequent tests are required to prove that the material is blood. As experienced investigators, they most surely followed up with their own proper forensic lab tests after Klein reported his luminol findings (?). They don't normally discuss an ongoing investigation but during the meeting with family in Pampa, TX they indicated "paint". However they did not clearly state that paint (not blood) was the finding of their subsequent forensic lab tests. They seemed to indicate by "hearsay" that paint had been tracked inside the car during an activity involving students that painted yellow paw prints on the road leading to the football stadium.
3. Skip Hollandsworth has investigated and written crime stories for 31 years for TM. As far as we know he did not ask Klein what subsequent forensic tests were conducted (of course OAG understandably would not have commented to Skip about an ongoing investigation).

Bottom line: Although the luminol controversy continues within some parts of the public domain, the truth of the matter is that, at this point, it really only matters what the OAG investigators know; they will be the ones who will affect the outcome of the case.

Completely agree. I have no doubt in my mind that the OAG investigators (with the assistance of state, federal or other outside entities) have conducted their own forensic investigation of the Durango by now and gotten as much evidence as possible out of it.

Who knows, maybe they had already done that before the August 2019 meeting in Pampa but didn’t quite get the results they had hoped for, so they decided to make the “we are going to suspend the investigation” announcement, hoping maybe they will start seeing withdrawals from certain investment accounts or some other unusual activity.

 

[OutWest]

Another thing to keep in mind. Early this year, we were told that there was some "binary" (digital?) evidence that was being put together. Then AG Sgt. Kading made multiple trips to Canadian and talked with some folks including the 31st District Attorney. Then shortly thereafter around the June timeframe, we learn that a Grand Jury will convene late 2020 or early 2021. To me, this smells like some additional material evidence has been discovered. Any persons involved may have good reason to begin getting nervous. I think there will be some surprises that are sprung at the GJ. I sure hope so. However, GJ's are absolutely secret so no public information will come forth unless there are indictments at some later point.

 

[Razz]

Another thing to keep in mind. Early this year, we were told that there was some "binary" (digital?) evidence that was being put together. Then AG Sgt. Kading made multiple trips to Canadian and talked with some folks including the 31st District Attorney. Then shortly thereafter around the June timeframe, we learn that a Grand Jury will convene late 2020 or early 2021. To me, this smells like some additional material evidence has been discovered. Any persons involved may have good reason to begin getting nervous. I think there will be some surprises that are sprung at the GJ. I sure hope so. However, GJ's are absolutely secret so no public information will come forth unless there are indictments at some later point.

About the bullet. Say TB was shot while in the Durango. It didn't go to the head so maybe somewhere other than the body. I wonder if they took the seats out of the Durango. I say this because I lost an earring in my car once and I couldn't find it anywhere. When I had the master carseat replaced, there was my earring. It had slipped down a hole and never would have been found had the seat not been removed.

So if it hasn't been done, I would have all carseats removed. No telling what else they might find.

 

[OutWest]

About the bullet. Say TB was shot while in the Durango. It didn't go to the head so maybe somewhere other than the body. I wonder if they took the seats out of the Durango. I say this because I lost an earring in my car once and I couldn't find it anywhere. When I had the master carseat replaced, there was my earring. It had slipped down a hole and never would have been found had the seat not been removed.

So if it hasn't been done, I would have all carseats removed. No telling what else they might find.

Always a possibility Razz and a good thought; only 1/4" in diameter and probably only about 3/8" long. However, a 25 ACP is not powerful enough to pass completely through the center mass of a body or any other part of body that contains vital organs with the exception possibly of the fleshy part of the neck area. Reportedly only about 30% of Tom's remains were found, so if ~70% of remaining bones cannot be found, a small bullet is definitely lost forever. The gun is still somewhere between Canadian and Lake Marvin rusting away but hid/buried well. The gun is the one item that could possible be linked to a person so they were especially careful about how it was discarded/hid and not just thrown out.

 

[Meligator]

The "run away" and "family covering suicide" narratives are are lame tactics to divert attention away from where the evidence points. When persons exhibit strange, deceptive, and illogical behavior, there is ALWAYS a reason that they do so. Always.

I totally agree. When Penny is first interviewed, she immediately brings up suicide as a possibility. Who would go through extensive efforts to cover up a suicide and then immediately tell the police “maybe it was suicide?” That makes no sense.