TX - Uvalde; Robb Elementary, 19 children and 3 adults killed, shooter dead, 24 MAY 2022 #2

[cujenn81]

Uvalde Officer Passed Up Shot at Gunman for Fear of Hitting Children

A city police officer armed with an AR-15-style rifle hesitated when he had a brief chance to shoot the gunman approaching a school in Uvalde, Texas, because he did not want to hit children, according to a senior sheriff’s deputy who spoke to the officer.


This must be why they initially reported that an officer first approached the gunman outside of the school but was unable to prevent the gunman from entering the building.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Uvalde Officer Passed Up Shot at Gunman for Fear of Hitting Children

A city police officer armed with an AR-15-style rifle hesitated when he had a brief chance to shoot the gunman approaching a school in Uvalde, Texas, because he did not want to hit children, according to a senior sheriff’s deputy who spoke to the officer.


This must be why they initially reported that an officer first approached the gunman outside of the school but was unable to prevent the gunman from entering the building.

Very interesting................

I can't read the article (seems I've reached my "free article limit") & I won't pay. lol

If that is true and LE did have at least one AR style weapon - well that seems that they weren't "out-gunned" like I thought.

And yes, that first report of the shooter encountered by an LE officer outside the building - right before he went in - could very well have happened.

Wish I could read the article. All these investigations, inquiries, whatever they are calling them IMHO are going to show some serious (and possibly chargeable) errors in judgment.

JMHO

 

[sds71]

Deputy: 2 officers had chance to shoot Uvalde school gunman

Two Uvalde city police officers passed up a fleeting chance to shoot a gunman outside Robb Elementary School before he went on to kill 21 people inside the school, a senior sheriff's deputy told The New York Times.

www.fox5dc.com

 

[cujenn81]

Very interesting................

I can't read the article (seems I've reached my "free article limit") & I won't pay. lol

If that is true and LE did have at least one AR style weapon - well that seems that they weren't "out-gunned" like I thought.

And yes, that first report of the shooter encountered by an LE officer outside the building - right before he went in - could very well have happened.

Wish I could read the article. All these investigations, inquiries, whatever they are calling them IMHO are going to show some serious (and possibly chargeable) errors in judgment.

JMHO

Sometimes using this website will remove the paywall — 12ft – Hop any paywall

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Deputy: 2 officers had chance to shoot Uvalde school gunman

Two Uvalde city police officers passed up a fleeting chance to shoot a gunman outside Robb Elementary School before he went on to kill 21 people inside the school, a senior sheriff's deputy told The New York Times.

www.fox5dc.com

From the article:

Two Uvalde city police officers....................The unidentified officers, one of whom was armed with an AR-15-style rifle, said they feared hitting children playing in the line of fire outside the school, Chief Deputy Ricardo Rios of nearby Zavalla County told the newspaper.

Well this is certainly new and very interesting. Not only did an officer have an AR - he didn't fire because there were children outside? Really?

I'm not necessarily buying into this account. When the shooter was outside, he was on a "parking lot" side of the school - we have all seen this in the diagrams. There were no "playground areas" any where near where the shooter was - when he approached and walked onto the campus. In fact, we were told that he "shot into classrooms" from the outside before entering through the door.

Now we are being told not only was there an officer armed with an AR out there - but that officer didn't fire for fear of hitting children outside? Huh? But but but - wouldn't the shooter have shot at the children outside - if, there were, in fact, children outside within that range? Rather than shooting into windows of classrooms?

I am sick and tired of getting these "accounts" - and every time - something changes or there is something new or this didn't happen but this did.

I have to bring my "mammie" thinking back into this and say, once again, "it ain't fittin', it ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin'. It ain't fittin'."


JMHO

 

[WingsOverTX]

From the article:

Two Uvalde city police officers....................The unidentified officers, one of whom was armed with an AR-15-style rifle, said they feared hitting children playing in the line of fire outside the school, Chief Deputy Ricardo Rios of nearby Zavalla County told the newspaper.

Well this is certainly new and very interesting. Not only did an officer have an AR - he didn't fire because there were children outside? Really?

I'm not necessarily buying into this account. When the shooter was outside, he was on a "parking lot" side of the school - we have all seen this in the diagrams. There were no "playground areas" any where near where the shooter was - when he approached and walked onto the campus. In fact, we were told that he "shot into classrooms" from the outside before entering through the door.

Now we are being told not only was there an officer armed with an AR out there - but that officer didn't fire for fear of hitting children outside? Huh? But but but - wouldn't the shooter have shot at the children outside - if, there were, in fact, children outside within that range? Rather than shooting into windows of classrooms?

I am sick and tired of getting these "accounts" - and every time - something changes or there is something new or this didn't happen but this did.

I have to bring my "mammie" thinking back into this and say, once again, "it ain't fittin', it ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin'. It ain't fittin'."


JMHO

Not believable!

Those who want to talk now should be interviewed only by investigators. The media just runs with whatever is said with no verification, which is very irresponsible.

Making claims that are unsubstantiated or unable to be vetted for accuracy is going to cause credibility of all LE involved to be doubted.

This account of children OUTSIDE "in the line of fire" is absurd IMO. If he meant having to shoot into classroom windows from outside, maybe.

Normally I'm in favor of freedom to speak. But LE have a special duty to not just talk in self-defense but to contribute to understanding what happened.

These random unvetted accounts do nothing but muddy the waters. I'm not sure any LE should be speaking in an unofficial capacity unless they have found other employment. In an official capacity? Only if they want to seek other employment.

What a mess. Attorneys are going to be all over these breaches of responsibility & protocol. It needs to stop.

JMHO

 

[Wise Old Owl]

Not believable!

Those who want to talk now should be interviewed only by investigators. The media just runs with whatever is said with no verification, which is very irresponsible.

Making claims that are unsubstantiated or unable to be vetted for accuracy is going to cause credibility of all LE involved to be doubted.

This account of children OUTSIDE "in the line of fire" is absurd IMO. If he meant having to shoot into classroom windows from outside, maybe.

Normally I'm in favor of freedom to speak. But LE have a special duty to not just talk in self-defense but to contribute to understanding what happened.

These random unvetted accounts do nothing but muddy the waters. I'm not sure any LE should be speaking in an unofficial capacity unless they have found other employment. In an official capacity? Only if they want to seek other employment.

What a mess. Attorneys are going to be all over these breaches of responsibility & protocol. It needs to stop.

JMHO

BBM

Now that could be possible - I guess. LE confronted the shooter outside of those classrooms and that would have put LE in a position, if he had to fire, to fire into the classroom as the shooter was in front of the classroom windows. But, I don't buy that either. Plus those children were NOT OUTSIDE but inside a classroom.

I agree with what you said - and the plethora of "accounts" that we are going to see and keep hearing about is only going to get bigger.

Having to wade through all this mud slinging is only going to obfuscate the actual truth of what happened that day.


JMHO

 

[Dotta]

More details

Uvalde cop wielding AR-15 MISSED chance to shoot and kill gunman

It's another reveal about the police's efforts during the fateful incident where 21 people, including 19 children, were killed and now has the cops under investigation.

www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[WingsOverTX]

More details

Uvalde cop wielding AR-15 MISSED chance to shoot and kill gunman

It's another reveal about the police's efforts during the fateful incident where 21 people, including 19 children, were killed and now has the cops under investigation.

www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Unfortunately, the DM is not the most reliable of sources, except as is often mentioned, they get great photos.

I'm not convinced because there is no way to know what is reliable. They don't have a rendering of the children supposedly outside outside potentially in the line of fire of the first responders in their illustration. The "cops" are not shown in a hallway but in an open large room (what is that room?) with no view of the doors to the classrooms attacked. What entrance to the building did they use? It's unclear to me. There are no cars shown in the parking lot (didn't AP miss seeing the shooter due to him "hiding" behind cars?).

I will wait for an official report on who was where. But that will no doubt leave some questions unanswered, too.

When I doubt the credibility of reports of officers at the scene, it's not that I necessarily think they are lying on purpose. After the incident, to explain their decisions (which were taken in seconds) they recreate what happened based on a narrative already evolving and being questioned. And the reporter doesn't ask (or doesn't publish) where the children supposedly in the LE AR-15 line of fire were.

The main reason for so many deaths was lack of breaching the rooms where the gunman was killing in a timely way. All the rest can be debated but it doesn't change the very long wait & causes for the delayed breach that cost more lives IMO..

Of course killing the gunman outside would have prevented the need to breach but that did not happen & no explanations for that are going to explain the 911 calls by children (!) 30+ minutes before the breach.

And the person who had the most knowledge to speed up the breach, SRO Chief AP, had no means of communication & refuses to accept that all on scene we're waiting on him to take charge. Something he thinks he can explain away when there is no established or ad hoc protocol that can ever do that.

AP would have been more help outside as a resource rather than inside as a responder. I still say his malfeasance (lack of knowledge, preparation, cojones) is the reason for the high number of murders here.

MOO
YMMV

 

[sds71]

In one of the initial 911 calls, at 11:29 a.m., a caller told dispatchers about the gunfire outside and also that there were children running, according to the documents. It was not clear where those children were or if there were others in the line of fire in those first minutes.

The chief deputy sheriff said that any attempt to shoot the moving gunman would have been difficult, and that the officer would undoubtedly have faced harsh criticism and possibly even a criminal investigation had he missed and hit a bystander in the distance, especially a child.

The chance passed “really quick” he said, perhaps in a matter of seconds…

Sheriff Salinas said he did not realize until later that his other deputy had been part of the team responsible for killing the gunman. He still did not know how it ended up that way, he said. Deputy Vasquez declined a request for an interview.

As the gunfire inside the classroom began, a Border Patrol agent with a ballistic shield lowered it to the ground to protect the team’s legs, Chief Deputy Rios said. Deputy Vasquez was just behind the Border Patrol agent, pointing his gun around one side of the shield.

Deputy Vasquez reported that after he had fired several shots, his gun jammed. But the other officers continued to fire, separated by only several feet from the gunman…

Uvalde Officer Passed Up Shot at Gunman for Fear of Hitting Children

A police officer had a chance to shoot the gunman before he entered a school, according to a chief deputy sheriff. The officer declined to take the shot, fearing injuries to others.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Friday Fan]

From the article:

Two Uvalde city police officers....................The unidentified officers, one of whom was armed with an AR-15-style rifle, said they feared hitting children playing in the line of fire outside the school, Chief Deputy Ricardo Rios of nearby Zavalla County told the newspaper.

I do not believe this! Kids would not be playing in the teachers' parking lot area!
We can debate doors, (how well do they lock?? etc etc) but kids near the teacher parking??

I don't buy it. All play areas and outdoor corridors were on the opposite side of the building.
I don't buy this latest spin. Lines on image are SR's path. Drawn by me.


I'm giving the benefit of the doubt that SR tried the back entrance first. However, I did not hear of a cop going all the way to the back entrance. That would be the only way the cop would have encountered children. But I highly doubt this scenario.

Either way, there is no reason to believe that children would be in this area. It was the teachers' parking lot!


Also this Sheriff's Deputy is from Zavala County. He obviously was not on the scene at the time.

 

[Friday Fan]

DBM - Duplicate

 

[ilovewings]

Uvalde officials are using a legal loophole to block the release of shooting records

After 19 children were killed at a Texas elementary, law enforcement officials have given little information. They're now using the "dead suspect loophole" to prevent the public release of records.

www.npr.org

This is so disgusting. I presume the Department of Justice , as part of their investigation, will be able to get those records.

 

[Dotta]

"Uvalde was a mental health desert"

Uvalde was a mental health desert before a school shooting prompted Texas to respond with resources

After the May 24 school shooting, mental health help is now pouring into Uvalde, where a fourth of residents are uninsured and counseling options are few and far between.

www.texastribune.org

 

[Doghairrules]

"Uvalde was a mental health desert"

Uvalde was a mental health desert before a school shooting prompted Texas to respond with resources

After the May 24 school shooting, mental health help is now pouring into Uvalde, where a fourth of residents are uninsured and counseling options are few and far between.

www.texastribune.org

I’m not at all surprised by this. And yet $21 million in mental health funding was slashed from the state budget last year.

Mental Health Funding Needed In Wake of Shooting, Texas Doctor Says

"[Lawmakers] need to be willing to open that budget a little wider and spend more money to get more training slots," says TCU's Dr. Debra Atkisson.

www.nbcdfw.com

 

[sds71]

For more than an hour, police never tried to open a door to the rooms where a gunman massacred 21 people at Robb Elementary, a source tells me. The gunman could not have locked it from the inside. The doors can only be locked or unlocked from outside.
In any case, police had a tool to force open a locked door the entire time, the source said.

… officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said…

All classroom doors at Robb Elementary are designed to lock automatically when they close and can only be locked or unlocked from the outside with a key, the source said. Police might have assumed the door was locked. Yet the surveillance footage suggests gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was able to open the door to classroom 111 and enter with assault-style rifle — perhaps because the door malfunctioned, the source said.

Another door led to classroom 112…

When a custodian brought a large key ring, Arredondo said he tried dozens of the keys but none worked.

But Arredondo was not trying those keys in the door to classrooms 111 and 112, where Ramos was holed up, according to the law enforcement source. Rather, he was trying to locate a master key by using the various keys on doors to other classrooms nearby, the source said.

Source: Police never tried to open door to classrooms where Uvalde gunman had kids trapped

Surveillance footage shows police never tried to open the door to the classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.

www.expressnews.com

 

[Wise Old Owl]

For more than an hour, police never tried to open a door to the rooms where a gunman massacred 21 people at Robb Elementary, a source tells me. The gunman could not have locked it from the inside. The doors can only be locked or unlocked from outside.
In any case, police had a tool to force open a locked door the entire time, the source said.

… officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said…

All classroom doors at Robb Elementary are designed to lock automatically when they close and can only be locked or unlocked from the outside with a key, the source said. Police might have assumed the door was locked. Yet the surveillance footage suggests gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was able to open the door to classroom 111 and enter with assault-style rifle — perhaps because the door malfunctioned, the source said.

Another door led to classroom 112…

When a custodian brought a large key ring, Arredondo said he tried dozens of the keys but none worked.

But Arredondo was not trying those keys in the door to classrooms 111 and 112, where Ramos was holed up, according to the law enforcement source. Rather, he was trying to locate a master key by using the various keys on doors to other classrooms nearby, the source said.

Source: Police never tried to open door to classrooms where Uvalde gunman had kids trapped

Surveillance footage shows police never tried to open the door to the classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.

www.expressnews.com

BBM

So they did have a halligan. hmmmmmm.. I kinda thought so - the fire department carry those with them and you know they had to have shown up as well. A halligan would have been tough as you kinda have to stand in front of the door to use it and then the shooter could have shot through the door. But still...........

And as for Arredondo trying keys in other doors - just smh. He was a mess. He had no clue what he was supposed to be doing or how to do it.

This is JMHO but I truly believe this man needs some jail time for what he did............

 

[kaen]

For more than an hour, police never tried to open a door to the rooms where a gunman massacred 21 people at Robb Elementary, a source tells me. The gunman could not have locked it from the inside. The doors can only be locked or unlocked from outside.
In any case, police had a tool to force open a locked door the entire time, the source said.

… officers had access the entire time to a “halligan” — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked, the source said…

All classroom doors at Robb Elementary are designed to lock automatically when they close and can only be locked or unlocked from the outside with a key, the source said. Police might have assumed the door was locked. Yet the surveillance footage suggests gunman Salvador Ramos, 18, was able to open the door to classroom 111 and enter with assault-style rifle — perhaps because the door malfunctioned, the source said.

Another door led to classroom 112…

When a custodian brought a large key ring, Arredondo said he tried dozens of the keys but none worked.

But Arredondo was not trying those keys in the door to classrooms 111 and 112, where Ramos was holed up, according to the law enforcement source. Rather, he was trying to locate a master key by using the various keys on doors to other classrooms nearby, the source said.

Source: Police never tried to open door to classrooms where Uvalde gunman had kids trapped

Surveillance footage shows police never tried to open the door to the classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.

www.expressnews.com

These are all things that you work out with table top and in building simulations (not simulations when students are in the area, just to be clear). The issues they are mentioning here are all foreseeable. Any LE with experience with these kinds of scenarios could have/ would have been able to guide them policies that would have worked for the restrictions/quirks of the building. It is exactly how I can tell you what my building needed, the materials replaced/added/changed, and the chain of information about where items like keys and rescue sequences given an attack on the east side versus west side or any other side of the building. It is really unbelievable how much they did not know....... couple that with slashed mental health funding and you have a nightmare waiting to happen. They are not the only school or district to have done surface level stuff leading to the potential of a disaster.

 

[Arkay]

All classroom doors at Robb Elementary are designed to lock automatically when they close and can only be locked or unlocked from the outside with a key, the source said.

I find this somewhat confusing.

This would mean that a supervisor or janitor would have to come by and unlock every classroom door when it's time for lunch, dismissal, or to go to another classroom. Or if a child needs to use a restroom.

This seems wildly impractical and time-consuming, IMO.

In the school where I taught, for decades we had a classroom key that opened every classroom in the building. It's a middle school so the kids were not in one room all day and teachers often needed to use another room for specific activities.

Eventually we were issued individual classroom keys, but the supervisors and janitors had master keys to open everything. We often had to wait for them to open specialized rooms to allow us in.

Yet every classroom I've ever been in, during 25 years in that school, opened and locked with a key from the outside. However, it could be opened easily to permit egress from within the room.

The outside doors, except the entrances where (unarmed) school safety agents were present, were locked from the outside and an alarm would sound if the door was opened from within.

Absolutely the classroom doors needed to be locked in Uvavle, but I cannot understand a classroom door that traps students and teachers inside without someone from outside approaching with a key.

Of course, I most definitely do not understand why the supervisors, janitors, and school safety agents did not have a master key.

Jmo

 

[Friday Fan]

Hubby was HS principal at a large school district in TX. Campus PD had keys to every room.

However this is a very large district and I believe the PD was created in the early 90s. (School police departmenrts were primarily created because of drugs on campus)

An article I posted a few posts back showed that 1/3 of Texas ISD police departments were created in 2018. If Uvalde's school PD was newly created, it could explain some of this.