Deceased/Not Found UK - April Jones, 5, Machynlleth, Wales, 1 Oct 2012 #3 *M. Bridger guilty*

[Clio]

Good point Amber,

Even without hindsight I think the crb checks may still be 'iffy'

I thought the CRB was a national database, but it appears not to be.

My brother in law very recently applied for a job as a school bus driver & had to submit CRB forms to each of 3 surrounding councils of the area's he would be working in'. he had to pay £50+ to each council.

My point being;

He was checked for convictions etc in the area's he would be working in, but not in his previous area (London)

Can anybody clarify please?

I see you have had a short answer, but here's a longer one for anyone that's interested.

The CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) is an organisation not a database. It provides a checking service so that employers can see the conviction histories of people who work, or are applying to work in some jobs, e.g. working with children or vulnerable adults.

The CRB accesses the PNC (Police National Computer) as part of it's checking service. The PNC is a national database which was set up in 1974. It was originally just for stolen vehicles but it has evolved over time to hold much more info than that.

As an aside, the PNC is not perfect and ultimately the PND (Police National Database) implemented last year may well replace it jmo. There's also the IMPACT nominal index system (INI) which is a system that stores whether a police force has data on an person of interest but not what that data is. INI is being subsumed into PND.

An employer can request, via the CRB for a standard or enhanced check to be done. A standard check will provide details from the PNC whereas an extended check will provide details from the PNC supplemented by info from local police forces and other organisations such as the Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA).

As of December this year, the CRB and ISA are merging to become the Dislosure and Barring Service (DBS).

It is up to the individual employer to decide whether there is anything on the CRB certificate which indicates that an employee or potential employee may be unsuitable for a particular job. Different employers have different policies.

All the above AFAIK

CRB links
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/agencies-public-bodies/crb/about-crb/
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Startinganewjob/DG_195809

PNC link
http://www.npia.police.uk/en/10508.htm

PND link
http://www.npia.police.uk/en/15091.htm

 

[Inge Jones]

I still feel on balance that he probably did do this - probably in a peak of high emotion and without much premeditation, and without paedophilia involved. However, I am still picking up on an impression the police don't have quite everything they need to be sure of securing a guilty verdict to all the charges.

 

[UKgirl]

Welcome!



I remember that there was great interest in that shot at the time, but I doubt that the van was 'dumped' - it is a couple of feet from the side of a relatively busy trunk road, totally blocking the road in that direction, and I think it was merely stopped by the police for searching because it was a white Connect van, which is what they were looking for initially.

I still believe that was a little decoy for the press, so LE could go and pick up the land rover from the repair shop. It seems a coincidence that there was a pic of that white van, then the next minute they had a blue landrover.

 

[Why why why]

I don't understand why they would charge him with murder and attempt to pervert the course of justice by hiding a body if they didn't have some good evidence to support it.

I agree with you.

Also, I feel MB had some sort of acute mental breakdown/crisis prior to carrying out this horrific act and that he is now remorseful & embarrassed/afraid to admit what he has done, that's why he (frustratingly) won't say where little April is. IMO

By the way, has it ever been heard of that someone was charged as MB has been, then for the person to be found alive?

 

[UKgirl]

I still feel on balance that he probably did do this - probably in a peak of high emotion and without much premeditation, and without paedophilia involved. However, I am still picking up on an impression the police don't have quite everything they need to be sure of securing a guilty verdict to all the charges.

I think they do, there is no way the CPS could let this go through an expensive trial without it. I am looking forward to the trial, I bet there is alot of evdence comes out that we have no idea about.

Also, what does a murderer look like then. Peter sutcliffe was a married man. His wife was shocked that he had killed 13 women and attempted to kill 7 others.

Stebe Wright the suffolk ripper was a man who was married and was in a relationship when he killed five women.

THe point of my post is that there isnt a specific image, they look like anyone else. Thats why they go undetected for so long and can carry on murdering.

Fred and Rose West, their neighbours never knew the seedy life they held. They went on many years murdering and raping women before being caught.

Sorry I so quoted the wrong post. I am dosed up on painkillers atm. Aplogies

 

[Inge Jones]

I still believe that was a little decoy for the press, so LE could go and pick up the land rover from the repair shop. It seems a coincidence that there was a pic of that white van, then the next minute they had a blue landrover.

I think the news helicopter just spotted that event and grabbed the photo, putting two and two together. They only said "believed to be..." which might mean believed by Sky News, not believed by police.

As it turns out, that may have just been the police looking at any pale van that happened to be little at the front and big at the back.

 

[UKgirl]

I agree with you.

Also, I feel MB had some sort of acute mental breakdown/crisis prior to carrying out this horrific act and that he is now remorseful & embarrassed/afraid to admit what he has done, that's why he (frustratingly) won't say where little April is. IMO

By the way, has it ever been heard of that someone was charged as MB has been, then for the person to be found alive?

Googled it but couldnt find anything. I know people have been accused, charged but the victim has still been deseased.

 

[UKgirl]

I think the news helicopter just spotted that event and grabbed the photo, putting two and two together. They only said "believed to be..." which might mean believed by Sky News, not believed by police.

As it turns out, that may have just been the police looking at any pale van that happened to be little at the front and big at the back.

Yep exactly. It seems funny sky news followed on that little lead of the van being found on that road, then all the sudden that piece of news vanished and was never spoke of again.

 

[Adorabella]

The Press will often edit out the number plate of a vehicle as it could lead to invasion of privacy if current and/or previous owners were traced.

But didn't they specifically give out the registration and ask if people had seen the vehicle between such and such time?

Maybe the front of the vehicle is covered because it has evidence of an accident?

By the way - morning all!

 

[Inge Jones]

UKgirl, sorry to hear you're in pain, I hope you start to feel better soon.

I am trying to put myself in the place of the police. Supposing they feel sure in their own minds based on everything they have heard, and their own experienced instinct, that MB killed the child. Supposing they can't bear the thought of freeing him as the 96hrs draws to a close, in case he disappears, or even abducts another child. Under these circumstances, the relevance of the evidence they do have could be presented in such a way as to persuade the public prosecutor. The court will certainly rely on the public prosecutor's advice when deciding whether to remand in custody.

This has happened before, and in most cases you can understand the position of the police. For example that Barry George was an unbalanced obsessive stalker, even if it did turn out later he wasn't a killer, therefore one can't blame the police for not wanting to take the smallest risk. Hence the speck of gunpowder in his pocket was used to convince the DPP that it was clear forensic evidence of a gun having been fired. A later appeal demonstrated successfully that there were many innocent reasons that could be present.

What we know of BG subsequenly, since reporting of his movements is no longer sub judice, is that he just seems to have a weird way of thinking but is probably not intelligent enough to learn how to get a real gun and use it that cleanly.

However, in other cases they may have had the right person, and yet the evidence failed to be sufficient to convict. Many people feel this applies to for example Casey Anthony (sorry I can't think of a UK one!). Oh there were the boys who killed Damilola Taylor. Anyway in each case the police managed to convince the prosecutor, but not the trial.

 

[Clio]

I think they do, there is no way the CPS could let this go through an expensive trial without it. <rsbm>

I think most of us agree that the police must have had enough evidence for CPS to agree to MB being charged. That's not necessarily the same as having sufficient evidence to be sure that a jury will convict him.

Yes, a trial will be expensive but how much is it costing to do all the searching they are continuing to do? Police are under financial contraints and they don't have limitless funds and resources yet they seem to be increasing not decreasing their efforts.

Personally, I suspect that they are nervous about getting a conviction without more evidence. I could be completely wrong and they are just trying to find her for her families sake but the longer this goes on, the more I doubt that is the only reason. JMO

 

[UKgirl]

UKgirl, sorry to hear you're in pain, I hope you start to feel better soon.

I am trying to put myself in the place of the police. Supposing they feel sure in their own minds based on everything they have heard, and their own experienced instinct, that MB killed the child. Supposing they can't bear the thought of freeing him as the 96hrs draws to a close, in case he disappears, or even abducts another child. Under these circumstances, the relevance of the evidence they do have could be presented in such a way as to persuade the public prosecutor. The court will certainly rely on the public prosecutor's advice when deciding whether to remand in custody.

This has happened before, and in most cases you can understand the position of the police. For example that Barry George was an unbalanced obsessive stalker, even if it did turn out later he wasn't a killer, therefore one can't blame the police for not wanting to take the smallest risk. Hence the speck of gunpowder in his pocket was used to convince the DPP that it was clear forensic evidence of a gun having been fired. A later appeal demonstrated successfully that there were many innocent reasons that could be present.

What we know of BG subsequenly, since reporting of his movements is no longer sub judice, is that he just seems to have a weird way of thinking but is probably not intelligent enough to learn how to get a real gun and use it that cleanly.

However, in other cases they may have had the right person, and yet the evidence failed to be sufficient to convict. Many people feel this applies to for example Casey Anthony (sorry I can't think of a UK one!). Oh there were the boys who killed Damilola Taylor. Anyway in each case the police managed to convince the prosecutor, but not the trial.

Thanks, I have fractured my wrist, so groggy, but learning to type with one left hand is coming along nicely lol.

I love this post, insyead of a thanks there should be a bravo. I tried to think too, I even googled it but I couldnt for the life of me think of something simular. The only one I could think of was the man that got executed for killing his wife and baby, he got pardoned as John Christie admitted to it.

 

[BritsKate]

I agree with you.

Also, I feel MB had some sort of acute mental breakdown/crisis prior to carrying out this horrific act and that he is now remorseful & embarrassed/afraid to admit what he has done, that's why he (frustratingly) won't say where little April is. IMO

By the way, has it ever been heard of that someone was charged as MB has been, then for the person to be found alive?

I can literally count the number of no-body child homicides brought to trial on one hand but there are just a couple of cases with which I'm familiar - only one recent.

The first case is from the 17th century. A servant family was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of their 70 year old master who'd gone missing. Two years after his supposed death he returned home with tales of being held as a slave in Turkey. The family had been hung a year prior. It's known as, iirc, the 'campden wonder' case.

The only other case I know of is mid 2000's in Australia. Leonard Fraser was a confessed serial killer and rapist who admitted to 5 murders - one of those being a 14 year old girl named Natasha Ryan. She later turned up alive. He died in prison from a heart attack having been convicted of 3 other murders in which bodies, and corroborating evidence, were located.

 

[UKgirl]

I think most of us agree that the police must have had enough evidence for CPS to agree to MB being charged. That's not necessarily the same as having sufficient evidence to be sure that a jury will convict him.

Yes, a trial will be expensive but how much is it costing to do all the searching they are continuing to do? Police are under financial contraints and they don't have limitless funds and resources yet they seem to be increasing not decreasing their efforts.

Personally, I suspect that they are nervous about getting a conviction without more evidence. I could be completely wrong and they are just trying to find her for her families sake but the longer this goes on, the more I doubt that is the only reason. JMO

I have never ever wanted to be picked for jury service in my life as I do with this trial. What I wouldnt give to be on that jury and hear all the evidence.

 

[Inge Jones]

Clio that is what I think. They have enough evidence that they're feeling 99% sure in their own experience this means what they think it means, but the people they have to convince won't have the same set of hinkymeters as the police do, and will want to see some objective evidence.

 

[Adorabella]

Thanks, I have fractured my wrist, so groggy, but learning to type with one left hand is coming along nicely lol.

Sorry to hear that you are in pain. Hope you feel much better asap.

 

[Blunomore]

But did she really name MB to LE? After all, he is the biological uncle of her other two children, he is family. Maybe he wasn't close family, but if an uncle of your child was reported taking your child away in his car would you immediately think she's been *abducted*? Especially since she's been on outings with him before. I would be perplexed, possibly annoyed, that uncle so-and-so took my daughter out to what appears to be a ride in his care without my permission, but I don't think I would immediatly call the police based on that. I would try to contact him, call him, drive to his house, but none of this was reported. Instead it was reported that a "search party" was immediately organized by neighbours. Why, if it was uncle Mark? The actions of April's mother and the neighbours look to me more like they thought a stranger had taken her. Or it could be that nobody liked and trusted MB, that there were ugly rumours and stories circling that involved him? But we have also heard that none of his friends and family thought he would be capable of something like this.

Excellent point. Who reported that April's mum reported to LE that it was MB who took April? Any link to this ?

 

[Clio]

Excellent point. Who reported that April's mum reported to LE that it was MB who took April? Any link to this ?

Here you go. It's not a direct quote from the police though

Mr Jones, 43, and his wife, 40, reported April missing immediately, and it emerged last night that they had told police who they suspected the driver of the car was.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ses-on-areas-highlighted-by-arrested-man.html

Oh and :welcome3:

 

[PADDYWHACK]

These are the things niggling away at me.

Re alibi:
LE made an appeal for information from anyone who may have seen MB or his vehicle between 6.30pm Monday (close to the time of AJ's disappearance) and 3.30 pm on Tuesday (close to the time of his arrest).
Does MB have an alibi for this time period?

M0NDAY

Re MB's state of mind on the day of abduction:
He parked his car in a haphazard manner at the school.
0ne witness who saw him driving through AJ's estate at 6pm on Monday said:
“He was driving erratically through Bryn-y-Gog...he nearly hit my mate at 6pm.''
The elderly neighbour said: ''A driver kept cruising up and down the road where the kids were playing. I thought it was a little odd but nothing more and then I noticed it parked up next to the garages which was strange because no one would park there usually...the kids were still playing at that point.But suddenly they weren’t there and I noticed the car drive briskly down the road towards the town centre.’'
We do not know for sure if he identified the make of car to LE or not, but he seemed to be quite observant so there's a possibility he was able to.

TUESDAY

0800 (just before): Someone told police the MB's vehicle was not parked in his driveway
Can MB account for his whereabouts?

0915: ''Mr Bridger seemed “agitated” as he drove out of Ceinws, the hamlet where he lived, according to a motorist, David Richards. “I was turning into Ceinws off the main road and crossing the bridge,” he said. “He wanted to go out to the main road in his vehicle. He was flustered, he wanted to get going. He couldn’t wait for me to cross the bridge, he couldn’t get out of that road quick enough. He was very agitated. There was only him in the Land Rover that I could see...he was crashing the gears, making a hell of a noise. He went out to the junction, then stopped and there was an almighty bang. There was something wrong with the vehicle.”
Can MB account for his whereabouts?

1pm: CS and her friend ''saw the figure scrambling down a gulley leading to the water's edge.'' The friend's father said: "My daughter and a friend saw a man, they know him well. He was coming down a shale bank with a black bag. He was next to the river. She has been interviewed by the police since and told them everything she saw."
1.45: There was footage of this man ''fitting MB's description'' taken by Channel 4 News
We don't know if this person was 'officially' identified as MB or not but LE would of course know.

2.15: PE and GE saw MB walking on the cycle bridge which led to his being later arrested as ''he walked down the A487 north of the Dyfi bridge outside the town wearing camouflage green jacket, black overtrousers and camouflage trousers .''

If MB was identified as the man with the black bag, what happened to it between 1pm and his arrest when he did not have it in his possession.

All these little queries could be explained away if there were plausible explanations.

(There are 2 other matters which I won't bring up for the sake of delicacy, but if April's body is found they will be answered.)

Aren't you curious as to why Mark Bridger who had lived in the region for over 20 years and was known by all, could not be identified by the vehicle driven? If they all knew each others business as they claim, they would have recognised his vehicle even from a distance.

 

[Blunomore]

Here you go. It's not a direct quote from the police though



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ses-on-areas-highlighted-by-arrested-man.html

Oh and :welcome3:

Thanks for the welcome !