Recovered/Located UK - Cardiff - 3 Women & 2 Men Missing, leaving nightclub approx 2am, Newport, 4 March 2023

[JennieM]

Cardiff car crash: 'Public distress' over police handling​

There is a great deal of public distress over the police handling of a car crash in which three people died, a Plaid Cymru politician has said.

Senedd member Peredur Owen Griffiths said the "disquiet" from families of the victims cannot be ignored.

He said police prioritisation processes for missing persons needed to improve.

Raising the matter in the Welsh Parliament on Wednesday, the South Wales East Member of the Senedd said: "There's been a great deal of public distress following the crash".

"You cannot ignore the public disquiet from the families and the friends of the crash victims", he added.

Mr Griffiths asked what input the Welsh government could have into improving police prioritising processes for missing persons to "ensure incidents like this can be avoided in the future".

Cardiff car crash: 'Public distress' over police handling

Plaid Senedd member highlights concern over police handling of a crash in which three people died.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Mr Smith said his daughter was "everything a father could wish for".

"It's going to change my life, I don't know how much it will," Mr Smith said.

"Nothing will be the same. I just need her here to get me through this. This is an impossible situation."

Family solicitor, Andrew Collingbourne, said he was hoping to meet the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) on Monday.

He said: "I am satisfied there will be a fair and objective investigation into what has gone on."

The IOPC said on Tuesday it was "urgently carrying out an assessment of referrals" to "determine what action may be required from us".

South Wales Police said it was continuing to investigate.

Cardiff crash: Dad who lost daughter says life has changed forever

The heartbroken dad of Eve Smith speaks outside his business where floral tributes have been laid.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[UK Girl]

Mr Smith said his daughter was "everything a father could wish for".

"It's going to change my life, I don't know how much it will," Mr Smith said.

"Nothing will be the same. I just need her here to get me through this. This is an impossible situation."

Family solicitor, Andrew Collingbourne, said he was hoping to meet the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) on Monday.

He said: "I am satisfied there will be a fair and objective investigation into what has gone on."

The IOPC said on Tuesday it was "urgently carrying out an assessment of referrals" to "determine what action may be required from us".

South Wales Police said it was continuing to investigate.

Cardiff crash: Dad who lost daughter says life has changed forever

The heartbroken dad of Eve Smith speaks outside his business where floral tributes have been laid.

www.bbc.co.uk

I dont really understand. From the article it says "
Family solicitor, Andrew Collingbourne, said he was hoping to meet the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) on Monday.
He said: "I am satisfied there will be a fair and objective investigation into what has gone on."
The IOPC said on Tuesday it was "urgently carrying out an assessment of referrals" to "determine what action may be required from us".
South Wales Police said it was continuing to investigate." what are they talking about exactly? how long it took the police to look for the car?

 

[Telltale]

I dont really understand. From the article it says "
Family solicitor, Andrew Collingbourne, said he was hoping to meet the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) on Monday.
He said: "I am satisfied there will be a fair and objective investigation into what has gone on."
The IOPC said on Tuesday it was "urgently carrying out an assessment of referrals" to "determine what action may be required from us".
South Wales Police said it was continuing to investigate." what are they talking about exactly? how long it took the police to look for the car?

There are two strands to it.

The police are looking into the events surrounding the crash. With likely a lot more resourcing than a basic single vehicle crash investigation due to the f-up.

They and the IOPC are also investigating why a group of missing people dying by inches in a crashed car took long to find. - Was the correct resourcing, risk rating and assigned tasks carried out based on information known at the time? Was incoming information appropriately assessed and promptly acted on? Basically were there any f-ups, missed opportunities or ignored lines of enquiry etc, and how can we make this not happen again.

Since this is a big embarrassment for the police, there are probably a few presiding shift Inspectors feeling awful twitchy right about now. Even if their actions, risk gradings and resourcing were entirely reasonable based on what was known at the time, when something big and public like this happens it seems all that goes out of the window and they were expected to have a crystal ball at the ready.

 

[JennieM]

IOPC investigation under way​

As would be routine in such situation both police forces have referred themselves to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC). The organisation has confirmed that it has decided to investigate how the missing person reports were handled.

Director David Ford said: “My thoughts go out to the families and friends of those who have tragically lost their lives, to those who have been injured, and indeed to the many people who have been affected by this incident. After careful assessment of referrals from Gwent Police and South Wales Police we have decided to independently investigate how police responded to the missing person reports.

“We will be examining what information police had, the grading given to any risk assessments, and the steps taken by police to locate the missing people prior to the Volkswagen Tiguan being found just after midnight on Monday. We will also consider what communication took place between the two forces and whether police action was appropriate and followed relevant policy and procedures. Our investigation is at a very early stage.

“We will be contacting the families involved to express our sympathies, explain our role, and set out how our investigation will progress. We are aware of the significant community concern about the tragic events that have unfolded and would like to assure everyone that we will conduct a thorough and timely investigation.”

Everything we now know about the Cardiff crash that killed three people

Eve Smith, 21, Rafel Jeanne, 24, and Darcy Ross, 21, died in the crash and two people remain critically ill in hospital

www.walesonline.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

I dont really understand. From the article it says "
Family solicitor, Andrew Collingbourne, said he was hoping to meet the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) on Monday.
He said: "I am satisfied there will be a fair and objective investigation into what has gone on."
The IOPC said on Tuesday it was "urgently carrying out an assessment of referrals" to "determine what action may be required from us".
South Wales Police said it was continuing to investigate." what are they talking about exactly? how long it took the police to look for the car?

I just posted about the investigation.

 

[UK Girl]

There are two strands to it.

The police are looking into the events surrounding the crash. With likely a lot more resourcing than a basic single vehicle crash investigation due to the f-up.

They and the IOPC are also investigating why a group of missing people dying by inches in a crashed car took long to find. - Was the correct resourcing, risk rating and assigned tasks carried out based on information known at the time? Was incoming information appropriately assessed and promptly acted on? Basically were there any f-ups, missed opportunities or ignored lines of enquiry etc, and how can we make this not happen again.

Since this is a big embarrassment for the police, there are probably a few presiding shift Inspectors feeling awful twitchy right about now. Even if their actions, risk gradings and resourcing were entirely reasonable based on what was known at the time, when something big and public like this happens it seems all that goes out of the window and they were expected to have a crystal ball at the ready.

wouldnt the recorded calls come into it as well? ie the parents of one passenger claims she rang x amount of times but the police have claimed they werent contacted til much later. IF they have proof that the calls were much later surely that would help the police? although there is a dispute on who found the car first searchers or the Police come to that

 

[JennieM]

wouldnt the recorded calls come into it as well? ie the parents of one passenger claims she rang x amount of times but the police have claimed they werent contacted til much later. IF they have proof that the calls were much later surely that would help the police? although there is a dispute on who found the car first searchers or the Police come to that

I imagine they will review everything, all the information they have, including the calls.

 

[Telltale]

wouldnt the recorded calls come into it as well? ie the parents of one passenger claims she rang x amount of times but the police have claimed they werent contacted til much later. IF they have proof that the calls were much later surely that would help the police? although there is a dispute on who found the car first searchers or the Police come to that

If they called via 999 101 the calls will be recorded. They will look at everything:

When the call was made?
What information was given or not given?
Whether the call taker transcribed all the relevant information in a clear way onto the incident.
When the inspector/sergeants became aware of that information.
How quickly they acted on it.
What were their resources or competing emergencies and priorities?
Did they request out of area resources if there wasn't?
Did they reassess the risk grading in a timely manner based on new or developing information?
Did assigned officers do thorough searches/ taskings?... Etc etc etc.

The police had a helicopter up, so they could have found the car but other searchers or dogwalkers etc got to the car first.

Imo

 

[ChiefLentilWeaver]

Presumably it's entirely possible the families of the women contacted the police well in advance of the police actually registering a missing persons report. Often the police are reluctant to formally register someone as missing for the first 24 hours and I expect that is something that is going to be investigated in this case - all 3 women were only officially reported as missing on the Saturday evening if I remember right? But that doesn't mean their families weren't frantic with worry well before then and had possibly made multiple contacts with local police earlier.

 

[ChiefLentilWeaver]

Of course in hindsight it's easy to say the police should have taken it more seriously earlier on but we don't know at what point they realised the women had been in that car with the men, for a start. Three young women all missing together after a night out with no evidence of foul play isn't really that suspicious IMO (not until later in the day when you'd expect them to have woken up if they'd just crashed at someone's house for example), and only when the link was made with the men (who were reported missing to a different police force, I believe?) and the car, and CCTV checked etc, would a fuller picture build up. If key information comes in dribs and drabs across two police forces, it's easy to see how the dots might take longer to be joined up. This will be the sort of thing the IOPC are going to look into.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

All of this is of course JMO, but to me the CCTV image of the car appears to show a dark-skinned male in the front passenger seat. If I'm correct, that could only be RJ. The driver appears to be a muscular white male wearing a dark vest; he appears to be leaning over with his head hidden behind the windshield pillar, and most of what is visible appears to be a muscular left shoulder and arm. Again, if I'm correct, that could only be SL.

IMO the image of the alleged impact tree appears to show more damage to the right-hand side, suggesting an impact with the left-hand passenger side of the car. If that's the case, the driver and the passenger sitting behind the driver may have been less badly injured than the front seat passenger and whomever was sitting behind.

 

[Telltale]

Presumably it's entirely possible the families of the women contacted the police well in advance of the police actually registering a missing persons report. Often the police are reluctant to formally register someone as missing for the first 24 hours and I expect that is something that is going to be investigated in this case - all 3 women were only officially reported as missing on the Saturday evening if I remember right? But that doesn't mean their families weren't frantic with worry well before then and had possibly made multiple contacts with local police earlier.

That's not really a thing in the UK in my experience. Unless there is evidence to say they are not actually missing - say a parent reports them missing but also says they're at their boyfriends house, or they just don't know where they are but also have done zero calling around to see if they are in obvious places (and have the ability too,) or they're found fairly quickly, in which case it is a Concern. Otherwise it gets recorded as a missing person and risk assessed by the Local Police Team Inspector fairly quickly. In an absence of concerning circumstances, it might be a low risk missing person without much movement on it for a while, but it's still a missing person.

 

[ChiefLentilWeaver]

I'm in the UK, so that's what my experience/opinion is based on.

If the women weren't reported as missing until Saturday evening, then surely either a) the police didn't file official missing person reports until then, or b) the families didn't make any contact with the police until then. If the families hadn't contacted the police until Saturday evening, I'm surprised there is so much criticism of the police response in the press/on SM as that would mean it was only just over 24 hours from first contact with police until they were located. IMO from all the reports I've read, it sounds very much like the families are frustrated that the police didn't take their concerns seriously enough fast enough, which points to a) being more likely.

 

[Ironside]

I would be rather surprised if multiple police call handlers all refused to log a missing persons case. If the mum had made all these phone calls on the Saturday she’ll have proof on her phone so we shall see what comes out.

 

[UK Girl]

I would be rather surprised if multiple police call handlers all refused to log a missing persons case. If the mum had made all these phone calls on the Saturday she’ll have proof on her phone so we shall see what comes out.

Good point about all the alleged calls being logged on her phone

 

[ChiefLentilWeaver]

I would be rather surprised if multiple police call handlers all refused to log a missing persons case. If the mum had made all these phone calls on the Saturday she’ll have proof on her phone so we shall see what comes out.

True, there will be proof via call logs either way.

 

[JosieJo]

Based on what we know only ..the criticism of the press seems unwarranted..they were reported missing at different times and it would have taken a long time to realise they were all together in one car

 

[NextSprint]

There are two strands to it.

The police are looking into the events surrounding the crash. With likely a lot more resourcing than a basic single vehicle crash investigation due to the f-up.

They and the IOPC are also investigating why a group of missing people dying by inches in a crashed car took long to find. - Was the correct resourcing, risk rating and assigned tasks carried out based on information known at the time? Was incoming information appropriately assessed and promptly acted on? Basically were there any f-ups, missed opportunities or ignored lines of enquiry etc, and how can we make this not happen again.

Since this is a big embarrassment for the police, there are probably a few presiding shift Inspectors feeling awful twitchy right about now. Even if their actions, risk gradings and resourcing were entirely reasonable based on what was known at the time, when something big and public like this happens it seems all that goes out of the window and they were expected to have a crystal ball at the ready.

Crystal ball? Nonsense. Two different police officers might have two different opinions on a risk grading, with the same set of facts. You don't need to be psychic; it all comes down to who's doing the grading, and what psychological blindspots they might have, what unconscious prejudice might be present.

What a lot of the talk around this can be summed up as is: 20-year old women don't deserve to be seen as high-risk missing if their missing-ness begins on a night out. How utterly awful.

 

[Ozoner]

Crystal ball? Nonsense. Two different police officers might have two different opinions on a risk grading, with the same set of facts. You don't need to be psychic; it all comes down to who's doing the grading, and what psychological blindspots they might have, what unconscious prejudice might be present.

What a lot of the talk around this can be summed up as is: 20-year old women don't deserve to be seen as high-risk missing if their missing-ness begins on a night out. How utterly awful.

I agree. Once information was posted on this thread, people here figured out within minutes that it was probably a wrecked car scenario. Local law enforcement should have been able to do the same, and the car should have been found much sooner, in my opinion. I don't know whether any of the dead victims would have survived, but it stands to reason that the delay in receiving medical care could not have done the injured victims any good.