UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Nikynoo]

Has the person who says they advised her against doing exactly or almost exactly what she herself says she later did taken the witness stand, so that the jury can get a view of their evidence and test it if they wish?

One question the defence, jury, or judge might wish to ask the person is why they gave that exact advice at that time. Not regarding the tent; the position of baby and falling asleep bit.

It would be quite interesting to know how she got identified at the hospital after the national hospital alert too. I've no idea what happened, but you'd have thought someone who changed her accent might have thought to change her hair colour for example. Was it just a photograph? Could have been a distinguishing physical characteristic I suppose, if not DNA - or a narrowing down using photographs, age, height, eye colour, eyebrow character*, voice timbre*, ethnicity, ethnicity of baby, followed by checking with someone who knew her.

* Police log these when they have arrested someone.

I believe the statement by the SW re sleeping with baby is an agreed set of facts as reported by The Argus in @Alyces first post. If the facts are agreed by both the prosecution and defence there is no need to interrogate the witness.

I have a feeling that there is a lot more to the children being taken into care besides this. I suspect that MGs past was also a factor but this cannot be disclosed to the jury.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

This did occur to me as well.

But even if she is lying and Victoria died in a different way, what she has essentially confessed to is gross negligence because she was specifically warned against the dangers to an infant of doing that. MOO.

Absolutely so. I just wonder if in her mind she thought that would go over better than admitting to almost total neglect, admitting that instead of suffocating accidentally, but passing quickly embraced by her mother, poor Victoria slowly wasted away painfully from dehydration and starvation, which is neglect at the very least and she doesn't seem to be able to comprehend the fact that she absolutely is not, has not and will never be any resemblance to an adequate mother.

I disagree. Its more than a lot of people earn in a month. Plenty enough to rent or pay a mortgage etc.

Oh definitely it's more than many people earn, my husband works full time and earns about £900 less than that take home, but we don't live in London so it's not really comparable.

£2500 a month is a reasonable amount of money, but the area people live is a factor too.

That said, I don't think it makes a difference in CM and MG case because they appear to have never paid any bills anyway, so what were they doing with all that money? £2500 is a big amount of money if you treat it all as disposable income.

 

[Kingsley]

Previously, concerns had been raised when Marten presented at a hospital six months pregnant having sought no NHS antenatal care.

At the time, she said that she and Gordon had been living in a campervan.

Months later, social services issued a national hospital alert to locate the couple.

When Marten went into labour with Child FF, she and Gordon gave false names at hospital, the court was told.

She claimed she had travelled to “avoid her family”, spoke with a “fake Irish accent” and claimed to be from the travelling community.

After their real identities were established, Marten told social workers they had been living in a campervan after being evicted from a flat.

A care professional said social services “had a number of concerns, including falsifying of names and that Ms Marten and Mr Gordon had been living in a tent”.

Marten said it had been her idea, that she would engage with care professionals and her child was her priority.

However, she was informed: “Some babygrows and nappies is simply not enough for a newborn baby to be safe.”

Marten was advised to reach out to her family and try to get housing but “due to her homelessness and inadequate preparations for a baby, a court order would be sought if she were unable to establish a suitable home for herself and (Child FF)”.

Social workers found Marten’s tent was “festival-style” and unsuitable for sleeping in during cold weather.

After visiting the tent, a social worker spoke to Marten about the “unsuitability and discomfort” of their situation.

The social worker stated: “I explained to her that it was winter, the conditions were freezing and the cramped space would be wholly inappropriate for a baby to live in.”

Marten accepted it was “challenging” but made clear that she and Gordon had an “alternative lifestyle” and not to judge her for it.

The social worker explained her “primary concern” was the wellbeing of Child FF and it was their role to assess the risk.

The court heard an interim care order was made for Child FF who was placed in temporary mother and baby placements with Marten.

Constance Marten warned of sleep risk before baby’s death, court told

Marten and her partner Mark Gordon deny manslaughter by gross negligence.

www.theargus.co.uk

It sounds like they were warned about all the things that ultimately contributed to Victoria's death. Their alternative lifestyle was more important. It wasn't ignorance. It wasn't mental illness. It was hubris. They should and hopefully will be judged. JMO.

 

[jackal67]

Just copying in an updated section I didnt see earlier.....


The couple went on to have three more children and “interacted well” with them during supervised contact sessions.

But their attendance was “inconsistent”, leaving the children distressed and unsettled, the court heard.

One of the children became quiet and withdrawn, telling staff: “Mummy and daddy cancelled again.”

The child was described as “inconsolable” when the parents failed to turn up at the contact centre.

Jurors heard of an incident of domestic violence in 2019 and a judge found a “risk of harm to the children by being exposed to physical violence between the parents”.

All four children were made subject to care and placement orders in January 2022.

Constance Marten warned of sleep risk before baby’s death, court told

Marten and her partner Mark Gordon deny manslaughter by gross negligence.

www.irishnews.com

So they couldnt even be bothered to keep up contact visits says it all really!!
I imagine some children were removed after the 2019 incident even though the the final order was made in 2022. The fourth was left at the hospital so never lived with them

 

[DianaWW]

Bit more context about leaving the baby at hospital from the BBC article from today:

‘At one point the couple left a child behind in hospital in order to attend a Family Court hearing, even though they had been offered a video link.’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Bit more context about leaving the baby at hospital from the BBC article from today:

‘At one point the couple left a child behind in hospital in order to attend a Family Court hearing, even though they had been offered a video link.’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

I guess the 'incident of domestic violence' must have been the window fall? The way it's worded does make it sound like one single event.

 

[Lolabear]

Bit more context about leaving the baby at hospital from the BBC article from today:

‘At one point the couple left a child behind in hospital in order to attend a Family Court hearing, even though they had been offered a video link.’

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Four children taken into care

A jury hears Constance Marten claimed she had not been to school - but was in fact from a wealthy family.

www.bbc.co.uk

I hope they get the book thrown at them and get given appropriate sentences. If they are ever allowed to get back together this will all happen again and again and again

 

[InstantCoffee]

It's striking to me that CM's story exactly mirrors previous warnings. Like a script.

I don't believe that's how Victoria died.

I agree with this! I think we should remember that in her initial police interview CM even said that MG may say something differing from her account of how Victoria died. It was obviously something they had discussed at great length between themselves prior to arrest. Falling asleep with the baby on her is something that had been flagged up to CM, so perhaps she thought it would be the least awful / most acceptable 'accident'. Although as has already been said - the very fact she had had it flagged to her before means it was wilful neglect anyway.

I also don't buy that their 'alternative lifestyle' was a lifestyle choice. It was to stop her family finding her and stop SS finding her. I've known a lot of people who have indeed lived alternative lifestyles - year round in yurts for example. Without fail they are people doing it for either spiritual or environmental reasons... and have had all necessary items such as log stoves in winter... not hiding out in a nylon festival tent!

 

[Obergine]

I was imaging a bell tent when I first heard they were living in a 'festival tent' as these are common at festivals (I have one) and are a bit alternative lifestyle for those that aspire to a yurt. They used the phrase again in court to refer to the Argis tent, so I guess I was wrong. I guess I just can't conceive of attempting to raise a baby in a two-man tent.... nuts.

 

[InstantCoffee]

I was imaging a bell tent when I first heard they were living in a 'festival tent' as these are common at festivals (I have one) and are a bit alternative lifestyle for those that aspire to a yurt. They used the phrase again in court to refer to the Argis tent, so I guess I was wrong. I guess I just can't conceive of attempting to raise a baby in a two-man tent.... nuts.

By festival tent I think they mean the cheapest and most disposable kind! The kind that are left behind in their hundreds after Glastonbury!

 

[Zuleika]

I disagree. Its more than a lot of people earn in a month. Plenty enough to rent or pay a mortgage etc.

As has been said upthread tho ,it depends on where you live .

 

[DianaWW]

They were living in Wales when the first baby was born. £2500 is more than enough to live on here IME, even in cities. And it appears she could access more cash if she needed it anyway. They were living as though they were homeless by choice, not through necessity. JMO.

 

[Nikynoo]

This did occur to me as well.

But even if she is lying and Victoria died in a different way, what she has essentially confessed to is gross negligence because she was specifically warned against the dangers to an infant of doing that. MOO.

The subtlety will be around the circumstances - did CM sleep this way intentionally , or did she fall asleep accidentally?

 

[Zuleika]

They were living in Wales when the first baby was born. £2500 is more than enough to live on here IME, even in cities. And it appears she could access more cash if she needed it anyway. They were living as though they were homeless by choice, not through necessity. JMO.

Giving free rein to their joint fantasy of being travellers ? To the point of inventing false names .
Now what have they done with all that money ?

 

[Cardgame]

As has been said upthread tho ,it depends on where you live .

But, as we now know, whatever the 'stipend' she received monthly, she clearly had access to top-up funds on demand.

For all we know, the trust allowed for these kinds of extras on a regular basis.
JMO.

 

[DavidAT]

Isn't the advice "Don't sleep on a bed with your baby" given to everyone who has just had a baby? I'm fairly sure that's what they said to my wife and me in their first postnatal visit after my son was born. There were three things. Another was "Don't smoke near your baby". My then wife said there's not much chance of that, given that neither of us smokes and we don't let anyone smoke in the house, but they said well they still had to talk about it a bit more... The advice on one of the three things had turned around through 180 degrees and was the opposite of what it had been not so long before. Not sure if it was sleeping next to a baby. Might have been the third thing that I've forgotten.

If the sleeping advice is given to everyone, I wouldn't agree with the view that everyone who does it and then the worst happens and their baby is suffocated should be convicted for manslaughter. But possibly in the majority of cases it happens, the parent is in a drunken or drugged stupor? Which is absolutely no excuse. Maybe some of those ones should be so convicted. Some people are just very stupid ("once won't hurt", etc.) and the pain of losing the baby because they were stupid might be considered enough.

 

[DavidAT]

Who owns the allotment? The shed had a bike in it. Often there's high demand for allotments and they aren't allowed to stay abandoned for long.

 

[iamshadow21]

Isn't the advice "Don't sleep on a bed with your baby" given to everyone who has just had a baby? I'm fairly sure that's what they said to my wife and me in their first postnatal visit after my son was born. There were three things. Another was "Don't smoke near your baby". My then wife said there's not much chance of that, given that neither of us smokes and we don't let anyone smoke in the house, but they said well they still had to talk about it a bit more... The advice on one of the three things had turned around through 180 degrees and was the opposite of what it had been not so long before. Not sure if it was sleeping next to a baby. Might have been the third thing that I've forgotten.

If the sleeping advice is given to everyone, I wouldn't agree with the view that everyone who does it and then the worst happens and their baby is suffocated should be convicted for manslaughter. But possibly in the majority of cases it happens, the parent is in a drunken or drugged stupor? Which is absolutely no excuse. Maybe some of those ones should be so convicted. Some people are just very stupid ("once won't hurt", etc.) and the pain of losing the baby because they were stupid might be considered enough.

The advice was possibly about sleeping position. After studies were done, advice changed to do with sleeping. Young babies should sleep on their backs, no pillow, unnecessary fabric and toys removed from cribs, don't use rocking cribs that can tilt with the baby's weight, the mattress must fit snugly...and so on.

Another piece of basic advice I've seen is never to drink a hot drink while holding the baby, for obvious reasons.

MOO

 

[DavidAT]

Absolutely so. I just wonder if in her mind she thought that would go over better than admitting to almost total neglect, admitting that instead of suffocating accidentally, but passing quickly embraced by her mother, poor Victoria slowly wasted away painfully from dehydration and starvation, which is neglect at the very least

That would be either manslaughter or causing or allowing the death of a child, both of which carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. It would also (IMHO) make her a psycho - really seriously mentally ill at a level which she may not be. If she is that ill, it would probably have come out in other behaviour.

 

[rockthecasbah]

Who owns the allotment? The shed had a bike in it. Often there's high demand for allotments and they aren't allowed to stay abandoned for long.

It could be the shed is abandoned, as in the person doesn't use it anymore, but still uses the rest of the allotment