UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Nikynoo]

Here is a GN Manslaughter case for you.

Warning - not easy reading

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5b46f2072c94e0775e7f0c79

 

[iamshadow21]

That would be either manslaughter or causing or allowing the death of a child, both of which carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. It would also (IMHO) make her a psycho - really seriously mentally ill at a level which she may not be. If she is that ill, it would probably have come out in other behaviour.

People starve children to death every day, there are threads aplenty for those poor little ones here, and the parents aren't mentally ill, just callous or sadistic.

MOO

 

[QB2022]

I can imagine she was deliberately sleeping with her on her chest to help keep her warm. That wouldn't likely be too challenging to prove

 

[Kye Zeeb]

It could be the shed is abandoned, as in the person doesn't use it anymore, but still uses the rest of the allotment

...or it may just have been unused over winter. January/February arent exactly peak months for gardening in the UK.

 

[Nikynoo]

The advice was possibly about sleeping position. After studies were done, advice changed to do with sleeping. Young babies should sleep on their backs, no pillow, unnecessary fabric and toys removed from cribs, don't use rocking cribs that can tilt with the baby's weight, the mattress must fit snugly...and so on.

Another basic advice I've seen is never to drink a hot drink while holding the baby, for obvious reasons.

MOO

I must admit, after reading the advice, I am guilty of most of the things CM was advised not to do. I would not have got any sleep if I did not (especially with the youngest). The advice with my eldest children was either to get them to sleep on their side or on their front. I can remember the 'back to sleep' campaign sometime in the 90s, but by then, my children were at school.

I wonder if there are any women on the jury who have done the same with their children?

 

[DianaWW]

This wasn’t general safe sleep advice given out to everyone by midwives though, according to todays reporting there were warnings given by social services, not midwives or health visitors, this happened more than once, and there were also concerns around unsafe living conditions and the complete lack of preparation (ie, the only things they’d bought were a few baby grows and nappies. Whilst living in a tent in the middle of winter). So there’s far more to it than not strictly following sleep guidelines. JMO.

 

[DianaWW]

I wonder if there are any women on the jury who have done the same with their children?

Snipped for focus.

Slept in bed with their children? Very possibly. Whilst in a tent, during winter, surrounded by bottles of urine and not having appropriate clothing for the baby? I very much doubt it.

 

[QB2022]

This wasn’t general safe sleep advice given out to everyone by midwives though, according to todays reporting there were warnings given by social services, not midwives or health visitors, this happened more than once, and there were also concerns around unsafe living conditions and the complete lack of preparation (ie, the only things they’d bought were a few baby grows and nappies. Whilst living in a tent in the middle of winter). So there’s far more to it than not strictly following sleep guidelines. JMO.

This could be because she was on some form of medication that impacts her sleep and overrides maternal instinct to wake appropriately to your baby

 

[Nikynoo]

Snipped for focus.

Slept in bed with their children? Very possibly. Whilst in a tent, during winter, surrounded by bottles of urine and not having appropriate clothing for the baby? I very much doubt it.

Thats not what I meant nor the advice I was referring to.

 

[DavidAT]

People starve children to death every day, there are threads aplenty for those poor little ones here, and the parents aren't mentally ill, just callous or sadistic.

MOO

Can't agree with you about that. This wouldn't be parents who left their baby somewhere while they went out to score drugs. It would be parents carrying their baby around with them and not feeding her, until she dies of starvation or dehydration. Just looking at that specific scenario. I would call that frighteningly mentally ill even if a psychiatrist would say it wasn't necessarily. Sadism to a baby is mentally unhinged too (to put it mildly). JMO.

 

[iamshadow21]

Can't agree with you about that. This wouldn't be parents who left their baby somewhere while they went out to score drugs. It would be parents carrying their baby around with them and not feeding her, until she dies of starvation or dehydration. Just looking at that specific scenario. I would call that frighteningly mentally ill even if a psychiatrist would say it wasn't necessarily. Sadism to a baby is mentally unhinged too (to put it mildly). JMO.

I think we'll have to agree that it's aberrant and abhorrent and disagree about the pathology, or lack thereof.

Cruelty, in my experience, doesn't always come with a reason why, except not caring enough about the child as a living, feeling being to be kind.

MOO

 

[DianaWW]

The Mail’s write up:

Constance Marten 'was warned of dangers of falling asleep with baby'

The aristocrat, 36, was told by a social worker that keeping the baby in a tent in freezing temperatures during winter was 'wholly inappropriate'.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Cardgame]

The subtlety will be around the circumstances - did CM sleep this way intentionally , or did she fall asleep accidentally?

That's v interesting.

If you fell asleep accidentally while driving a car, would you be found negligent if you crashed into someone and killed them?

If you fell asleep accidentally while driving a car, having not slept for three days, would you be found more negligent?

[If she intentionally fell asleep on the baby, surely that would be murder. She isn't on trial for that, or is she?]

Those aren't rhetorical questions BTW, they are actual questions!

 

[Rolypolyoly]

That would be either manslaughter or causing or allowing the death of a child, both of which carry a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. It would also (IMHO) make her a psycho - really seriously mentally ill at a level which she may not be. If she is that ill, it would probably have come out in other behaviour.

I don't think my post was very clear, I didn't mean on purpose, like deliberately carrying her around and starving her, I don't think CM of a monster.
I meant that they obviously weren't buying formula and giving her bottled, and CM was exhausted and not eating properly herself, so I wonder if she had enough milk to feed the baby, and if she even had enough natural instinct to put the baby to her breast often. We don't even know if Victoria could larch on, some babies have a lot of trouble.
So yes, I do think that Victoria was starved, or at the very least underfed, and dehydrated and not to mention hyperthermia, all due to neglect, but I don't think that neglect was an intentional cruelty, but more a consequence of their selfishness and complete and utter lack of common sense.

I must admit, after reading the advice, I am guilty of most of the things CM was advised not to do. I would not have got any sleep if I did not (especially with the youngest). The advice with my eldest children was either to get them to sleep on their side or on their front. I can remember the 'back to sleep' campaign sometime in the 90s, but by then, my children were at school.

I wonder if there are any women on the jury who have done the same with their children?

Same here. I too had babies in differing advice periods, I particularly baulked at the idea of not preparing bottles in advance and keeping them in the fridge, that worked fine for my older kids and that's what I did for the younger ones, imagine making a hungry baby wait while you make up and then try to cool down a bottle when they wake up hungry!.

Some of the advice I followed, but I mostly trusted my own instincts. Trouble with this case is that I don't think CM had any.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

The subtlety will be around the circumstances - did CM sleep this way intentionally , or did she fall asleep accidentally?

JMOO, but it’s not that possible to fall asleep that way unintentionally. It’s warmer and easy to lie down and breastfeed, especially with the assumed lack of back and arm support available (though for safer co-sleeping, Victoria should have been at least on a cot or crib mattress in appropriate clothes with no loose bedding around and on only CM’s side as CM was EBF). However, I’m counting the fact the decision to feed in a position could have been changed. It’s a choice to feed sitting up in itself.

I’m a co-sleeper and think it’s a lifesaver (or mind saver, if we’re being more literal) for lots of breastfeeding mums. It can be done safely, but it seems there was no effort here to do that. Including the dummy - EBF mums are encouraged not to get a dummy for the first 6 weeks at least, until breastfeeding is established and, even then, it’s not particularly reccomended as it means you risk responding to feeding cues with it leading to lower supply and lower baby weights. If in a happy, healthy home and used very appropriately it can be a non-issue, but a cold baby would have needed lots of foods and to consider a dummy in a situation that risks low supply is not a good move. There are specific guidelines around them for EBF babies. For benefit of the doubt, perhaps they planned to have it available for being in a house etc. but it’s another addition that shows not following advice and not considering their specific situation - all JMOO.

 

[Telltale]

TBH I don't think mums on the jury are gonna give her more latitude due to feeling the prosecution is judgy or being guilty of a few mummy sins themselves.

I think they more than anyone are going to appreciate how breathtakingly negligent these two were with a newborn. They will understand the amount of effort they didn't take to keep her warm and comfortable and healthy - and are likely feel the most fury about it.

 

[choc drop]

Reading the statements I'm thinking the mums on this thread have the wrong take on this.(I also co-slept with my kids).

You have to start with the fact they have history of living in a festival tent (small popup unsuitable type), in winter. This is not what most of us would call boho, alternative living, but the stark, smelly, utterly down-and-out reality of homelessness - which is how SS appear to have treated it.

I believe she was sleeping with baby FF "on" (strapped to,in a coat) her chest, seated and upright. This is NOT stated explicitly. "We" are all thinking of "proper" co-sleeping, where you are in a warm house with no blankets, laying flat etc.

ALL very much MOO

 

[Cardgame]

Reading the statements I'm thinking the mums on this thread have the wrong take on this.(I also co-slept with my kids).

You have to start with the fact they have history of living in a festival tent (small popup unsuitable type), in winter. This is not what most of us would call boho, alternative living, but the stark, smelly, utterly down-and-out reality of homelessness - which is how SS appear to have treated it.

I believe she was sleeping with baby FF "on" (strapped to,in a coat) her chest, seated and upright. This is NOT stated explicitly. "We" are all thinking of "proper" co-sleeping, where you are in a warm house with no blankets, laying flat etc.

ALL very much MOO

Very much agree.

We could also discuss whether or not it's safe to carry a baby tucked inside your coat....

But then watch the footage of how CM hoiked the baby around in her coat: the baby slipping down, being hoisted back up, etc etc.

 

[iamshadow21]

Very much agree.

We could also discuss whether or not it's safe to carry a baby tucked inside your coat....

But then watch the footage of how CM hoiked the baby around in her coat: the baby slipping down, being hoisted back up, etc etc.

Whatever the reasons for Victoria's passing, the video we have certainly shows little gentleness in how she was handled while living.

MOO

 

[Obergine]

This from the DM about them having trouble with the homeless community. So they hadn't found their new age tribe. Maybe CM trying to argue that 'we're not homeless, we're alternative' despite being objectively the former.