UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[Nikynoo]

How do you know the reason the children were permanently removed? I have not seen this information anywhere?

The Trial podcast. Episode 10 around 15 min 30 in.

 

[crespo29]

So CM has said that they didn't try and travel abroad earlier during her pregnancy as MG didn't have access to his passport (for some strange reason involving someone from CMs family). But then she says that after the car fire they were trying to get to a seaport as quickly as possible. How would that work if he had no passport? How would that course of action be any more accessible to them at this point than before?

I think it would be possible to slip through and get onto a boat, some ferries would be easier than others. On a 24 hour port like Portsmouth it would be difficult but smaller ports such as Newhaven, it would be possible to get on board with a little ingenuity, but of course then there is the problem getting off in France, before Brexit, virtually no checks, today much more difficult, but possible.

 

[DavidAT]

From car fire onwards:

"She carried the infant under her jacket in a blanket which she made into a sling, she added."

Flower and Dean Walk:

"She said they had ditched a buggy along with a distinctive red blanket because it gave away that they had a baby while they trying to stay under the radar."

Constance Marten fears she’ll never get other children back – latest

Marten and partner Mark Gordon deny gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria

www.independent.co.uk

I'm interested in how the baby was carried when they left F&DW if not in the bag. Was she carried in a sling made from something other than the red blanket? Certainly CM is swinging both her arms as they walk away after ditching the buggy.

If the prosecution want to say Victoria was in the bag while alive, either on the walk away from F&DW or at any other time, they will have to "put it to" CM that she's lying.

 

[Obergine]

Understatement of the year, 'I don't think they agree with my marriage and the choices I have made.'

 

[elliefant]

RBBMFF
It is possible to have the baby secured tightly enough to you that you don't need hands.
I did babywearing with my youngest, who is now 10. I had to walk my elder daughter to school every morning and pick her up every afternoon. It was January/February in the Snowbelt in the middle of the Great Lakes, Ontario, in Canada. I could not havehave pushed a stroller/pram in 1 to 2 feet of snow, so I would have my son in a sling or a baby-wearing scarf, a long, sturdy, but flexible cloth which you wrap around you and the baby. Similar to what you would see in other countries, with the baby strapped to the mother's back. It was comfortable and secure, and I did not need my hands unless I had to bend down.
Let me add this was sometimes in -30! I would dress baby, wrap him to me, then wear my coat over the top. It wasn't a long walk, 10 minutes there and back, but he and I would be hot and getting sweaty by the time I got home.
I mentioned this back in the early days when they were first missing.
There were no times my son was uncomfortable, cold or unsafe.


Babywearing is the practice of wearing or carrying a baby in a sling or in another form of carrier. Babywearing has been practiced for millennia around the world. Babywearing is a form of baby transport which can be used for as long as mutually desired, often until toddlerhood and beyond. In the industrialized world, babywearing has gained popularity in recent decades. Part of the reason for this shift is due to the influence of advocates of attachment parenting.
Babywearing - Wikipedia

This is very similar to what I used, but when I first researched the wraps, I saw many people use homemade wraps with their own material or scarves as the 'official' wraps are quite expensive.
Moby Baby Wraps
View attachment 488680

This was their version :

Constance Marten’s baby could have died from the cold or co-sleeping, court told

The defendants, of no fixed address, deny manslaughter by gross negligence and other charges

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Doughy]

I'm still wondering about the 'falling out of the window' incident & the house they left with fire damage & a caved in ceiling.

 

[DianaWW]

He means in between when she is sworn in as a witness and when she is discharged as a witness. Fine at other times.

I realise that. It wasn’t fine in this instance though, otherwise he wouldn’t have been told off by the judge. It wasn’t the only time either apparently:

‘The judge warned Gordon he must not discuss Marten's evidence with her while she was giving it.

When Gordon did not respond, he said 'I'm taking your lack of acknowledgement that you've heard me' and Gordon said he had.’

Constance Marten breaks down in court as she denies killing baby

Aristocrat Marten, 36, and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, are on trial over the death of baby Victoria while living off-grid in a tent on the South Downs in wintry conditions last year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[DavidAT]

This was their version :

Constance Marten’s baby could have died from the cold or co-sleeping, court told

The defendants, of no fixed address, deny manslaughter by gross negligence and other charges

www.standard.co.uk

View attachment 488689

That's presumably the "blanket" to which she refers, which we've seen from other photos looks easily big enough to be made into a sling. But according to that report of her testimony in the Independent they ditched the buggy "along with" the red blanket. If "along with" implies "at the same time", that means they threw away the blanket in Flower and Dean Walk, because that's where they got rid of the buggy. So if she is telling the truth and Victoria was never in the bag while alive, she must have been under one of their coats when they left Flower and Dean Walk, secured by ... ??

 

[DavidAT]

I realise that. It wasn’t fine in this instance though, otherwise he wouldn’t have been told off by the judge. It wasn’t the only time either apparently:

‘The judge warned Gordon he must not discuss Marten's evidence with her while she was giving it.

When Gordon did not respond, he said 'I'm taking your lack of acknowledgement that you've heard me' and Gordon said he had.’

Constance Marten breaks down in court as she denies killing baby

Aristocrat Marten, 36, and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, are on trial over the death of baby Victoria while living off-grid in a tent on the South Downs in wintry conditions last year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I read it not as the judge telling him off for doing it, but rather as the judge warning him that he shouldn't repeat while she was giving evidence what he'd done before she started.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Everything still seems odd. JMO.

I wonder if the disparity in reporting detail is because she is hard to follow.

Chaff much?

"I think it was 2016"

"Around 2016"

It's the year you went to Peru and got married, not a pub quiz! Who can't remember what YEAR they got married?!

RBBM
Most husbands

Definitely mine lol and it was 2000, how hard can that be?

 

[rightsaidfred]

I don't think channel small boats do return journeys, nor do refrigerated lorries at Tilbury docks!

I was joking about that part!

But I wonder if the thought had crossed their minds, they've got enough delusional beliefs about what was possible.

 

[DavidAT]

5:15PM

Marten says she considered taking her life​

Constance Marten’s defence counsel Francis FitzGibbon KC then asked her what the couple’s plans had been with the body of baby Victoria.
She said at one point she considered cremating the remains, and even thought about ending her own life at the same time.
She explained: “Mark said ‘why don’t we jump in with her, call it quits? Let’s just all have a fire and say goodbye to life together. We had just had enough at that point.”
As she continued to give evidence her own mother, who was in court, sobbed quietly.

Constance Marten tells court family set private detectives on her

Constance Marten has claimed that she was followed by private detectives in a row over her grandmother’s will.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Up until now I've viewed CM's mother in negative terms - the trust money story, her attitude towards MG, the couching of the "appeal", the loud apparently self-regarding comment in court - but it's impossible not to have some empathy with her as she hears this particular part of the evidence.

 

[Nikynoo]

'We wanted to move abroad but we were unable to do so because a member of my family took me to court.

'We thought it had been lifted but it put a stop on our travelling so we had plans but they fell through.’

Constance Marten breaks down in court as she denies killing baby

Aristocrat Marten, 36, and her partner Mark Gordon, 49, are on trial over the death of baby Victoria while living off-grid in a tent on the South Downs in wintry conditions last year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[jackal67]

The Trial podcast. Episode 10 around 15 min 30 in.

Ok thanks .Not listened to any podcasrt. Dont know how to lol

 

[Nikynoo]

Up until now I've viewed CM's mother in negative terms - the trust money story, her attitude towards MG, the couching of the "appeal", the loud apparently self-regarding comment in court - but it's impossible not to have some empathy with her as she hears this particular part of the evidence.

I’m not sure whether her mother has any say in the Trust. I’m unsure as to which side of the family the Trust is. Anyone know?

 

[Nikynoo]

Ok thanks .Not listened to any podcasrt. Dont know how to lol

If you google The Trial Podcast, there are various links, some you don’t need an app for. Just click on a link and select episode 10.

Or try this link. Constance Marten and Mark Gordon: ‘Alternative lifestyle’ | The Trial

 

[DianaWW]

If you google The Trial Podcast, there are various links, some you don’t need an app for. Just click on a link and select episode 10.

The BBC are also doing one, which is available here:

BBC Local Radio - In Court - Available now

Available episodes of In Court

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[rockthecasbah]

Explaining why the couple had chosen that area, she said: “We wanted to be near a port so we had two plans in our mind. The first was to get a cottage that we could pay for with cash with no electrical tracing and also to be near a port so that someone could smuggle us abroad. Our plan was only to be in the tent for a day or two maximum.”

Okay - so complete fantasist thinking! Who would smuggle two people and a new born baby who are wanted by Police and SS!

CM thought she would find one of these

 

[Cedars]

Explaining why the couple had chosen that area, she said: “We wanted to be near a port so we had two plans in our mind. The first was to get a cottage that we could pay for with cash with no electrical tracing and also to be near a port so that someone could smuggle us abroad. Our plan was only to be in the tent for a day or two maximum.”

Okay - so complete fantasist thinking! Who would smuggle two people and a new born baby who are wanted by Police and SS!

I'm not in the least surprised, their behaviour from the time of abandoning the car shows they were extremely delusional about reality.

My question is, was it truly a shared delusion, or was one of them dominant and the other a follower/believer?

JMO

 

[Alyce]

Marten feared she would never get her other children back after baby’s death, court told​

The mother told the court she and Gordon had “a thousand different thoughts” going through their heads after Victoria died.
She told jurors she held the newborn for several hours before saying some “parting words” to her daughter, who she wrapped in a black headscarf and placed in a bag for life.

“I immediately panicked and thought I just don’t know what to do they are going to have a field day with this – the media, the press, social services…because she was in my care and she’s not alive,” she said.

“I panicked and thought how am I going to get my other four kids back now that Victoria’s passed away.”

Constance Marten fears she’ll never get other children back – latest

Marten and partner Mark Gordon deny gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria

www.independent.co.uk