UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[InstantCoffee]

12:58pm

We are now breaking again and will sit again at 2pm.
12:57pm

John Femi-Ola KC, defending Gordon, is asking Marten some questions.

I wish The Argos would get a grown-up to do the job! This isn't even GCSE level!

 

[Doughy]

The jury don't even have to believe it. They just have to think it may be true. Which ISTM the prosecution accepts. It's not clear why GNM should even go to the jury, and especially so in MG's case.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more on how they were lying in the tent, where the three people were positioned, where they put their stuff, was Victoria at an edge or between her parents; and also where they were getting water from, did they have a means of heating it, did they get it from a hot tap in a petrol station toilet and put it in a flask, what exactly did they do regarding the practicalities of looking after Victoria? Instead we get questions such as did she do anything to harm the baby.

The thing to look out for in reports of CM's cross-examination by the crown is any imputation of lying. If they're going to say in their closing speech that in their submission she's lying, they have to put it to her.

Indeed. Has there been any mention of bathing poor Victoria. Imagine how sore she could've been wearing a nappy with no daily bath.

 

[Alyce]

So it looks as though John Femi-Ola has asked his questions - and when they return it will be Tom Little for the Prosecution doing cross examination.




1:07PM

Marten unable to hold body of baby after death​

During a brief cross-examination by John Femi-Ola KC, the counsel for Mr Gordon, Ms Marten explained that after her baby’s death on Jan 9, she was unable to leave the tent for the next three days and spent most of the time holding her body.



1:08PM

Hearing breaks for lunch​

The hearing has now adjourned for lunch and prosecution cross-examination is due to begin at 2pm.

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance Marten tells court

Constance Marten has insisted she had to escape because of her “oppressive and bigoted family”, a court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Lolabear]

I fear with her acting abilities she's going to get off with a fairly light punishment...anyone else think this?

 

[Nikynoo]

I fear with her acting abilities she's going to get off with a fairly light punishment...anyone else think this?

I'm waiting for closing statements. We don't have the full picture here. There are gaps - e.g. the lidl shopping bag - did the prosecution say, look, this picture shows Victoria in the bag, or this witness saw Victoria being put into the bag?

ETA - I have an uneasy feeling about CM and it has nothing to do with 'acting'.

 

[rockthecasbah]

I'm waiting for closing statements. We don't have the full picture here. There are gaps - e.g. the lidl shopping bag - did the prosecution say, look, this picture shows Victoria in the bag, or this witness saw Victoria being put into the bag?

Witnesses from the bus perhaps, there would be a smell. If it's the Coastliner route it's pretty busy. Or witnesses before she died seeing the bag moving.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I fear with her acting abilities she's going to get off with a fairly light punishment...anyone else think this?

IMO jury probably pretty disgusted. Telling them of her Holding the baby 3 days, like some motherhood martyr grieving. I don’t think so.
Only reason she would be “holding” baby for 3 days, is hiding it.

I imagine more like “oh sheet, oh sheet, babe, baby’s dead, really very dead, we’re F’d, what do we do?” Panic because they have accomplished what of course they knew could likely happen. CM would know before the death that the baby is poorly, not thriving, not able to bond or see her mummy’s face as she is hidden all the time in a coat to keep warm.
Maybe some tears later, but I don’t think there is deep emotional for this baby. They were more motivated by hate of SS, of people telling them what to do and their own misplaced “pride” than care and love of their baby.imo

 

[Twittens]

ETA - I have an uneasy feeling about CM and it has nothing to do with 'acting'.

Curious to know what you mean by this?

 

[Nikynoo]

Witnesses from the bus perhaps, there would be a smell. If it's the Coastliner route it's pretty busy. Or witnesses before she died seeing the bag moving.

But the prosecution has not brought forward witnesses for either of thee scenarios, have they?

 

[Lolabear]

IMO jury probably pretty disgusted. Telling them of her Holding the baby 3 days, like some motherhood martyr grieving. I don’t think so.
Only reason she would be “holding” baby for 3 days, is hiding it.

I imagine more like “oh sheet, oh sheet, babe, baby’s dead, really very dead, we’re F’d, what do we do?” Panic because they have accomplished what of course they knew could likely happen. CM would know before the death that the baby is poorly, not thriving, not able to bond or see her mummy’s face as she is hidden all the time in a coat to keep warm.
Maybe some tears later, but I don’t think there is deep emotional for this baby. They were more motivated by hate of SS, of people telling them what to do and their own misplaced “pride” than care and love of their baby.imo

Hopefully the jury think this too

 

[Alyce]

Oh, the Junior is doing the cross ?

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Really disturbing statement from CM. I would most definitely call 999 even if I woke up to my baby being really blue. That small hope that there was still life would be priority No1.

Instead CM states the baby was clearly dead. Makes me think she knows more than she is saying.

jmo

My best friend since school lost her baby to cot death, she woke up and the baby wasn't breathing, she knew he was dead but she still called an ambulance.
In the hospital later that day, as she cradled her dead baby and asked me if I wanted to hold him and as she passed him to me, she was 100 times more gentle with him, told me to be careful of his head, than CM in the footage we saw of her manhandling Victoria into the buggy.

I can't accept CM not calling for help either.

 

[Cardgame]

15 cars!

JMO but do we believe this? Or is this to account for the fact that she asked for 15K for a new car from the trust fund?

"On 22 December, £15,590 was transferred as Ms Marten said she wanted to buy a new car."

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Defendant had £48k paid into her Metro bank account

The Old Bailey heard while police were searching for her she had more than £19,000 put into her account.

www.bbc.co.uk

Maybe she's thinking about next time she writes for a little advance...?

 

[Alyce]

15 cars!

JMO but do we believe this? Or is this to account for the fact that she asked for 15K for a new car from the trust fund?

"On 22 December, £15,590 was transferred as Ms Marten said she wanted to buy a new car."

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Defendant had £48k paid into her Metro bank account

The Old Bailey heard while police were searching for her she had more than £19,000 put into her account.

www.bbc.co.uk

Maybe she's thinking about next time she writes for a little advance...?

I think that covers most of the years that they've been together Cardgame.

Even so, 15 cars and all with the same problem - surely there was a clue there for them !

 

[Baby baby Jane]

But the prosecution has not brought forward witnesses for either of thee scenarios, have they?

Didn’t the hotel staff, say the room smelled like something dead after their departure?

 

[Cardgame]

“We are looking at this from a Western perspective.

“There are people around the world who live in tents, there are children who live in igloos as long as you give them warmth and love and food… I would have preferred not to be in a tent.”

I had to escape oppressive and bigoted family, Constance Marten tells court

Constance Marten has insisted she had to escape because of her “oppressive and bigoted family”, a court heard.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Um. Maybe a Western Perspective is appropriate here, on account of YOU being a white Western woman who grew up in a massive stately home, not an igloo.

JMO.

 

[Telltale]

15 cars!

JMO but do we believe this? Or is this to account for the fact that she asked for 15K for a new car from the trust fund?

"On 22 December, £15,590 was transferred as Ms Marten said she wanted to buy a new car."

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon trial: Defendant had £48k paid into her Metro bank account

The Old Bailey heard while police were searching for her she had more than £19,000 put into her account.

www.bbc.co.uk

Maybe she's thinking about next time she writes for a little advance...?

I don't think they had 15 cars. They don't seem that kind of crazy. I reckon it was an excuse that worked when it came to getting a lump sum out of her trust fund so she kept using it. Thus there was a record of them 'buying 15 cars.' Easier just to agree than answer questions about what else the money went on.

Though, there would be a record if they registered those cars properly, which I'd expect the police to have checked so idk maybe they are that kind of crazy.

 

[rockthecasbah]

But the prosecution has not brought forward witnesses for either of thee scenarios, have they?

They may have, or CCTV, and it isn't being reported in the press. Post IIRC from someone who had been in the public gallery said the court is being shown a lot more CCTV than is released publicly

 

[DavidAT]

Oh, the Junior is doing the cross ?

FWIW Joel Smith recently made silk.

Tom Little KC - Deka Chambers - Barristers Chambers

As Senior Treasury Counsel, Tom Little KC regularly prosecutes some of the country’s most high-profile cases.

www.dekachambers.com

Joel Smith KC | Furnival Chambers

Joel undertakes all types of criminal work. In 2017 Joel was appointed as Junior Treasury Counsel at the Central Criminal

furnivalchambers.co.uk

Joel Smith to be appointed King's Counsel | Furnival Chambers

We are pleased to announce the King’s approval of the Lord Chancellor’s recommendation that Joel Smith be appointed one of

furnivalchambers.co.uk

 

[dotr]

Witnesses from the bus perhaps, there would be a smell. If it's the Coastliner route it's pretty busy. Or witnesses before she died seeing the bag moving.

Didn’t the hotel staff, say the room smelled like something dead after their departure?

Baby ‘screaming in distress’ with 'no clothes' as on-the-run parents refused help

A newborn baby cried “in distress” as her on-the-run parents refused help days before she was found dead in a shopping bag, a court has heard.

www.newsshopper.co.uk

rbbm
''They checked into the Harwich Premier Inn under the false name of Thomas with Marten paying in cash at 3am, jurors were told.
Staff noticed she seemed “quite distressed” and declined the use of a cot for the child strapped to her front under a blanket.
''She appeared “drained”, spoke with a “posh” accent and looked like a character from the Disney film Brave, the court heard.
That afternoon, receptionist Rae Robson told jurors Marten appeared “stressed” when told she would have to vacate her room because she did not have any identity documents.
Giving evidence, Ms Robson said: “She asked to extend her stay for another night.
“She only had cash, she had no identification on her or a bank card because it was left in the car that broke down.
“I told her I would give her about 10 minutes to get her stuff together and leave.
“Me and my manager then knocked on the door to encourage them to leave.”
After the couple came out, Ms Robson went into the room and noticed a smell “like rotten flesh” or an “infected piercing”, she said.''