UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Skigh]

Baby Victoria was sitting in her own faeces when her body was put in a plastic bag, her mother has suggested to a court.

I don’t know why it’s this, out of everything else we’ve heard, that has got to me so much. That poor baby.

Constance Marten calls baby’s death a ‘horrible accident’ – trial live

Marten and partner Mark Gordon deny gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria

www.independent.co.uk

There is absolutely no way that a loved baby would be left in a dirty nappy after death. Clean ones were found in the shed when it was searched.
I wonder if Victoria actually got an infection from sores due to very infrequent nappy changes and that led to her death. If she was covered in sores it could be why they did not want Victoria discovered until it was too late to examine her body.

 

[DianaWW]

There is absolutely no way that a loved baby would be left in a dirty nappy after death. Clean ones were found in the shed when it was searched.
I wonder if Victoria actually got an infection from sores due to very infrequent nappy changes and that led to her death. If she was covered in sores it could be why they did not want Victoria discovered until it was too late to examine her body.

I can’t see how they could have possibly been keeping her clean. She said they had a change of clothes for Victoria. One? I mean, I had days when my babies would need their clothing changed multiple times a day! They had no way of doing laundry and we know they didn’t buy more clothes. Obviously these things didn’t cause her death, but IMO they are evidence of negligence.

 

[Alyce]

Baby Victoria was sitting in her own faeces when her body was put in a plastic bag, her mother has suggested to a court.

I don’t know why it’s this, out of everything else we’ve heard, that has got to me so much. That poor baby.

Constance Marten calls baby’s death a ‘horrible accident’ – trial live

Marten and partner Mark Gordon deny gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria

www.independent.co.uk

Me too Diana. CM was quite ok to take all of Victoria's clothes off after death - why ? ( to hasten decomposition imo ) but not willing to remove the dirty nappy and clean up her precious baby - the child she would do anything for

 

[Skigh]

I can’t see how they could have possibly been keeping her clean. She said they had a change of clothes for Victoria. One? I mean, I had days when my babies would need their clothing changed multiple times a day! They had no way of doing laundry and we know they didn’t buy more clothes. Obviously these things didn’t cause her death, but IMO they are evidence of negligence.

Lack of hygiene could have caused her death , the likelihood of her suffering an infection would be very high ,I am sure Mark's infected toe was not properly cleaned and covered ,so was in contact with the sleeping bag.

 

[DianaWW]

Lack of hygiene could have caused her death , the likelihood of her suffering an infection would be very high ,I am sure Mark's infected toe was not properly cleaned and covered ,so was in contact with the sleeping bag.

Yes that’s a good point!

 

[Obergine]

So this very successfully establishes, in case there was any doubt in the mind of the Jury, that CM would lie to hide any physical or sexual violence within her relationship or even against her children. EBM

 

[rockthecasbah]

Horrible things she says in the DM article.

She's also extremely stupid to think that reporting crimes against children to the police would not lead to social services being involved.

 

[rightsaidfred]

Will they find out who their parents are only when 18? As they have all been adopted now? Not all adopted children want to trace their birth parents.

The norm nowadays is that children are brought up knowing they're adopted.

They're given, as children, a life story book which explains in child friendly terms who their birth family are, why they came into care, who their foster carers were, and why they were adopted. They can also write once a year through an intermediary service. This is known as letterbox contact.

While not every adopted child will want to track down their birth family and have contact, they will know who they are, and I dare say that most have a bit of a Google / Facebook stalk when curiosity gets the better of them. For these four children, they're going to find a hell of a lot of information, and their adoptive parents will face a dilemma about when and how to tell them about baby Victoria.

It's very different from the way adoption used to be done decades ago, where parents were told to keep it a secret, and some were completely oblivious until their adoptive parents died and they found the paperwork during the house clearance.

 

[Obergine]

I'm increasingly convinced that she is implying her own family are part of the 'cabal'... see: QAnon - Wikipedia

 

[jackal67]

The norm nowadays is that children are brought up knowing they're adopted.

They're given, as children, a life story book which explains in child friendly terms who their birth family are, why they came into care, who their foster carers were, and why they were adopted. They can also write once a year through an intermediary service. This is known as letterbox contact.

While not every adopted child will want to track down their birth family and have contact, they will know who they are, and I dare say that most have a bit of a Google / Facebook stalk when curiosity gets the better of them. For these four children, they're going to find a hell of a lot of information, and their adoptive parents will face a dilemma about when and how to tell them about baby Victoria.

It's very different from the way adoption used to be done decades ago, where parents were told to keep it a secret, and some were completely oblivious until their adoptive parents died and they found the paperwork during the house clearance.

Yes I realise children are told they are adopted at a young age now but didnt think they were given Names of parents and circumstances until they were legally adults.

 

[rockthecasbah]

Yes I realise children are told they are adopted at a young age now but didnt think they were given Names of parents and circumstances until they were legally adults.

The idea is they are told their story according to their level of understanding as they grow up then by the time they are 18 they have the full story. E.g. for a small child the story could be told as "it was not safe for you because your birth parents were hurting each other".

 

[rightsaidfred]

Yes I realise children are told they are adopted at a young age now but didnt think they were given Names of parents and circumstances until they were legally adults.

They get a child friendly version of what happened, rather than the gory details, which they can access when they're older.

"Didn't have a house to live in, and wouldn't let the social worker help them" not "lived in a tent surrounded by black bags and bottles of urine, faked their names and tried to run off to Ireland to evade SS".

"Not very nice to each other and argued a lot", not "there was lots of domestic violence and your birth mum was pushed out of a window by your birth dad".

According to this guide, they include a family tree with three generations, so they will know not just who CM and MG are, but who Napier and Virginie are too, and the wider family.

Life Story Books Guidance

coventrychildcare.proceduresonline.com

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Imagine how long this trial would have been if Mark Gordon had also given evidence?

With constant demands for sandwiches with mayo and lying on the dock

 

[QB2022]

I just think about how my son winces when I grab the wipes from the downstairs loo in the morning and the first few are cold on his bottom. Even things like that would have been brutally cold in a tent!

 

[Henrymoggington]

Baby Victoria was sitting in her own faeces when her body was put in a plastic bag, her mother has suggested to a court.

I don’t know why it’s this, out of everything else we’ve heard, that has got to me so much. That poor baby.

Constance Marten calls baby’s death a ‘horrible accident’ – trial live

Marten and partner Mark Gordon deny gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria

www.independent.co.uk

And even for this awful fact, she had an excuse

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I just think about how my son winces when I grab the wipes from the downstairs loo in the morning and the first few are cold on his bottom. Even things like that would have been brutally cold in a tent!

Did she HAVE wipes? Don’t recall them being mentioned, any cream for baby bottom? I saw the photos of the evidence of V’s clothes, all so dirty. A tent would be so damp…

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Will they find out who their parents are only when 18? As they have all been adopted now? Not all adopted children want to trace their birth parents.

They will most likely be told names and age appropriate facts straight away. This is done gradually and considers both the age and understanding of the child. Children reprocess trauma (and facts or experiences) differently as their brains grow and so a 6 year old will have different questions to a 10 year old. The story grows in detail with the child really. If you want to look at your file (when 18+), you usually have to go in and read it with a social worker as an adult because they worry about certain facts being very hard to find out and process.

Often it’s about being factual, but also empathetic about birth parents. It’s important it isn’t a sudden revelation but a long term and normalised process of understanding your own history.

Not all adoptees do want to trace their birth parents - and not all birth parents feel able to meet their children again, but the children will know their own story and why they were found an adoptive family. It can be difficult to reconnect emotionally. However social media has been the biggest nightmare because birth parents are often easily located and teenagers often struggle to process their traumas and go in search of their parents.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Yes I realise children are told they are adopted at a young age now but didnt think they were given Names of parents and circumstances until they were legally adults.

It’s been common practice for years to give a life story book and (slightly later) a life letter. These would include names and information about what happened before they came into care. The adoptive parents are usually a big part in telling the story to the child gradually too, but depending on circumstances some children may go through therapy to address severe trauma and understand their life story (for example, to Family Futures) and therefore be told appropriately in therapy what happened and be allowed to explore how that affects their current behaviours and responses. Often children have their own questions they want to ask - I know I did. Sometimes when the child asks they’re considered ready to know, but they would not necessarily be given every single detail. Some questions might be about themselves eg. “Why do I hit when I’m angry?” And then it opens the door to help them understand by saying, “I think you hit because you saw your mum and dad hit each other.”

The adoptive parenting approach now is based around helping children move through trauma and understand where they came from and what they experienced, and for that, they have to know key details.

Edited to add: sorry my other post showed up as 3 pages ago when I was reading the thread through, so I thought this comment was far later and I was answering later ‍ not sure how they then showed up right underneath each other essentially answering the same thing. Feel free to ignore!

 

[Earthwindfire]

I can’t see how they could have possibly been keeping her clean. She said they had a change of clothes for Victoria. One? I mean, I had days when my babies would need their clothing changed multiple times a day! They had no way of doing laundry and we know they didn’t buy more clothes. Obviously these things didn’t cause her death, but IMO they are evidence of negligence.

Negligence and neglect.

 

[Earthwindfire]

It’s been common practice for years to give a life story book and (slightly later) a life letter. These would include names and information about what happened before they came into care. The adoptive parents are usually a big part in telling the story to the child gradually too, but depending on circumstances some children may go through therapy to address severe trauma and understand their life story (for example, to Family Futures) and therefore be told appropriately in therapy what happened and be allowed to explore how that affects their current behaviours and responses. Often children have their own questions they want to ask - I know I did. Sometimes when the child asks they’re considered ready to know, but they would not necessarily be given every single detail. Some questions might be about themselves eg. “Why do I hit when I’m angry?” And then it opens the door to help them understand by saying, “I think you hit because you saw your mum and dad hit each other.”

The adoptive parenting approach now is based around helping children move through trauma and understand where they came from and what they experienced, and for that, they have to know key details.

Edited to add: sorry my other post showed up as 3 pages ago when I was reading the thread through, so I thought this comment was far later and I was answering later ‍ not sure how they then showed up right underneath each other essentially answering the same thing. Feel free to ignore!

I guess in the modern age children need to know pretty young at least some background as once they have access to the internet they can very easily track down people from their birth family