UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[crespo29]

I think it can be seen from what CM has been saying in the witness box that sometimes it is best not to say anything at all. I think that CM is angry about her family, SS and probs other stuff and she could not stop herself saying what she thought in the witness box. I dont think she has performed too badly but as is the nature of court cross examinations, her statements have been given other meanings.
I personally think that if she kept quiet, she would have a better chance of being found not guilty. I think it could go either way now and I am sure there will be grounds for appeal. I still do not understand why this case is being heard in the Old Bailey.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

JMO but IMO she's said a whole load of unsubstantiated things that seem like mental ego defences, deflections, denials and paranoid ideation.

From the outside, it looks like her mind will play any trick to try and avoid the fact that four of her children have been removed for solid reasons and that her baby died in horrific conditions that most adults wouldn't be able to withstand. Rather than take responsibility for this dreadful death, CM rather hopes to drag us all into her distorted world view of nonsense justifications and rationalisations.

Seems like MG, a grown man, didn't withstand the conditions too well himself.

 

[bobbymkii]

Seems like MG, a grown man, didn't withstand the conditions too well himself.

I think that if the pair of them hadn't been arrested then they would have died days later.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think that if the pair of them hadn't been arrested then they would have died days later.

I agree. I think MG was at high risk of death from sepsis at the very least.

 

[Megnut]

JMO but IMO she's said a whole load of unsubstantiated things that seem like mental ego defences, deflections, denials and paranoid ideation.

From the outside, it looks like her mind will play any trick to try and avoid the fact that four of her children have been removed for solid reasons and that her baby died in horrific conditions that most adults wouldn't be able to withstand. Rather than take responsibility for this dreadful death, CM rather hopes to drag us all into her distorted world view of nonsense justifications and rationalisations.

Seems like MG, a grown man, didn't withstand the conditions too well himself.

Excellent points.

Notice, she apparently failed to take appropriate steps to show herself as fit, in order to "save" her first children from foster care. Didn't apparently feel a need to prove the lengths she'd actually go (no, not mileage) to provide stable care. Instead she must have figured that having a baby in secret and then take full leave of good sense and drag that baby, sans prenatal care, into full instability, harsh conditions, poor climate, questionable nutrition, hell, not even running water nor a bed of her own.

And she wonders why anyone would question her judgment????

Stunning.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Excellent points.

Notice, she apparently failed to take appropriate steps to show herself as fit, in order to "save" her first children from foster care. Didn't apparently feel a need to prove the lengths she'd actually go (no, not mileage) to provide stable care. Instead she must have figured that having a baby in secret and then take full leave of good sense and drag that baby, sans prenatal care, into full instability, harsh conditions, poor climate, questionable nutrition, hell, not even running water nor a bed of her own.

And she wonders why anyone would question her judgment????

Stunning.

Yes and with the undertone of a martyr. She did it all for Victoria. She sacrificed her posh feather quilts for Victoria.
She could have had a comfortable accommodation but she had to save Victoria so she ended up in a tent which she did not want

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Yes and with the undertone of a martyr. She did it all for Victoria. She sacrificed her posh feather quilts for Victoria.
She could have had a comfortable accommodation but she had to save Victoria so she ended up in a tent which she did not want

Yes, blaming a deceased newborn who cannot speak for herself. Look what we did for you!?

I believe that every dead baby who never got the chance to grow up should have a special independent advocate in court to remind everyone that there was an entire future life and spirit and soul taken cruelly.

I've said this before but if MG and CM went on the run with an older child who died in that tent in the exact same circumstances, there'd be a national outcry of how did we let this happen and 'not again' and they'd be charged with all sorts of serious things.

But this death happened almost invisibly to someone we never got to meet or see (except on kebab shop CCTV) and it's like her little life never happened. By dint of her extreme vulnerability and newness it's as if she's been rendered invisible and worthless.

JMO MOO

 

[Smccat]

Yes, blaming a deceased newborn who cannot speak for herself. Look what we did for you!?

I believe that every dead baby who never got the chance to grow up should have a special independent advocate in court to remind everyone that there was an entire future life and spirit and soul taken cruelly.

I've said this before but if MG and CM went on the run with an older child who died in that tent in the exact same circumstances, there'd be a national outcry of how did we let this happen and 'not again' and they'd be charged with all sorts of serious things.

But this death happened almost invisibly to someone we never got to meet or see (except on kebab shop CCTV) and it's like her little life never happened. By dint of her extreme vulnerability, newness, and vulnerability, it's as if she's been rendered invisible and worthless.

JMO MOO

I have to say I felt a lot of that. Everything we did was for Victoria. It’s all her fault.
That’s how i felt anyway.
Jmo imoo

 

[Lolabear]

Thanks for this Porky. I've always had the same kind of feelings about MG but did not know how to put it into words.

It's my belief that both CM and MG both snapped while on the run and with their tiredness and paranoia they purposely put the baby, who would not settle down, into a permanent sleep.


JMO

My feelings exactly

 

[Doughy]

She proved social services right when she refused the parental capacity assessment. These assessments aren't there to try and catch you out, advice is given throughout if deemed necessary & how the parent deals with said advice is also taken into consideration.

 

[seasideForest]

To be fair, 'to keep my baby' implies that she wanted to keep the baby alive. I think we can all be too guilty at times to take a phrase said in the heat of the moment and try to give it other meanings.

It really doesn't imply 'to keep my baby alive' to me! For me it implies that she wanted to keep the baby for herself / with herself come hell or high water. For how long? In what state? There's no reference to that.
MOO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It really doesn't imply 'to keep my baby alive' to me! For me it implies that she wanted to keep the baby for herself / with herself come hell or high water. For how long? In what state? There's no reference to that.
MOO.

Also she's said more than a couple of times that if the baby was in distress, she would have been letting her know. Specifically, I can recall are re the heavy and IMO dangerous handling of the baby into the buggy captured on CCTV and also re putting the baby in the Lidl bag. CM said something along the lines of she hadn't harmed the baby as the baby would have been screaming if she was unhappy. It doesn't work that way round.

We can't look for our cues from the newborn baby to see how to appropriately handle it and assume if it isn't screaming then all is well in the world. Also a quiet, listless, and not moving baby is possibly in a near death state as opposed to blissfully content.

JMO MOO

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Also she's said more than a couple of times that if the baby was in distress, she would have been letting her know. Specifically, I can recall are re the heavy and IMO dangerous handling of the baby into the buggy captured on CCTV and also re putting the baby in the Lidl bag. CM said something along the lines of she hadn't harmed the baby as the baby would have been screaming if she was unhappy. It doesn't work that way round.

We can't look for our cues from the newborn baby to see how to appropriately handle it and assume if it isn't screaming then all is well in the world. Also a quiet, listless, and not moving baby is possibly in a near death state as opposed to blissfully content.

JMO MOO

CM narrative has been that being the biological mother had given her a superior edge to care for Victoria. She even said that she didn't need any prenatal care because after 4 kids she had become "intuitive". As if 4 healthy kids could guarantee that every baby after that would be healthy.
She would have known if Victoria was uncomfortable, not well, etc. Victoria may have been dragged everywhere but she was happy because "it soothed her" to be near them and, of course, she was loved.
She's been trying to sell this biological love trumps everything.
Except it didn't, because ultimately, they were not able to keep her alive.
My 2 cents is that CM milk supply amd the whole breastfeeding was impacted by the situation they were in, the constant stress, lack of rest, appalling diet, lack of constant fluids, etc.
JMO, MOO

 

[Cardgame]

Also she's said more than a couple of times that if the baby was in distress, she would have been letting her know. Specifically, I can recall are re the heavy and IMO dangerous handling of the baby into the buggy captured on CCTV and also re putting the baby in the Lidl bag. CM said something along the lines of she hadn't harmed the baby as the baby would have been screaming if she was unhappy. It doesn't work that way round.

We can't look for our cues from the newborn baby to see how to appropriately handle it and assume if it isn't screaming then all is well in the world. Also a quiet, listless, and not moving baby is possibly in a near death state as opposed to blissfully content.

JMO MOO

Also we heard witness evidence that the baby was screaming in such a distressing way that a passerby felt he could not walk away and offered them a lift to the hospital.

She gave the kind of cry he “could not walk away from”, Mr Gosling said.

Prosecutor Joel Smith asked: “To you, did the baby sound distressed?”

Mr Gosling said: “Most definitely.”

...

Mr Gosling denied a suggestion by Gordon’s defence that he had “embellished” his evidence and that the baby was not crying.

...

He said: “I recall a child screaming to the point where I had to physically turn around and involve myself with people because the child was distressed.

“It was really traumatising to listen to.”

He added that as a father himself, he knew the difference between ordinary crying and genuine distress.

It's very interesting that the couple deny that the baby was crying rather than saying 'it was normal crying, babies cry'.

ETA: this event takes place 3 days before CM claims the baby died


ETA: link Baby ‘screaming in distress’ with 'no clothes' as on-the-run parents refused help

 

[bobbymkii]

<modsnip - quoted post was rumor>


I personally would be absolutely astonished if any Marten family members gave evidence under oath in this trial. They would be at massive risk of committing perjury, surely?

 

[rockthecasbah]

Whether or not there were PIs doesn't matter. Being followed by PIs doesn't mean she had to neglect her child, and cause her death.

IMO

 

[DianaWW]

Whether or not there were PIs doesn't matter. Being followed by PIs doesn't mean she had to neglect her child, and cause her death.

IMO

Exactly, I don't think they would even need to mention it. It's irrelevant as far as the charges are concerned. JMO.

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

Obviously the prosecution don't have to actively disprove her various weird statements about the family background, travel bans, reasons for the previous children being taken etc.

However, given that it would be a huge blow to her credibility, I am a bit surprised that they haven't cross-examined on at least some of those things with the relevant documents to show that she has misrepresented the position. Just letting the wild assertions ride is a bit of a high-risk strategy.

 

[Nikynoo]

Exactly, I don't think they would even need to mention it. It's irrelevant as far as the charges are concerned. JMO.

I agree. I know I've said this before, but they (either one or both) have either breached their duty of care, or they have not.

 

[DianaWW]

The Independent link is up. No updates as yet though.

Constance Marten calls baby’s death a ‘horrible accident’ – trial live

Marten and partner Mark Gordon deny gross negligence manslaughter of their daughter Victoria

www.independent.co.uk