UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Rolypolyoly]

From the Independent Live Stream

15:24

‘I’m not into conspiracy theories,’ Marten says​

Speaking of her plans to move to Europe with her family, Marten said she was aware of an “underground network” helping parents move away from social services.
When questioned by the prosecutor if she bought into conspiracy theories, she responded: “I’ve had a great education, I’m not into conspiracy theories.”

She is a walking conspiracy theory!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

She is a walking conspiracy theory!

Conspiracy Marten

 

[Megnut]

From the Independent Live Stream

13:15

‘Jesus survived in a barn,’ Marten counters to scrutiny over tent use​

Questioned further on their use of tent during sub-zero temperatures with a newborn, Marten responded: “Jesus survived in a barn, didn’t he?”
She repeated that their intention had not been to live permanently or for a prolonged period in a tent but had decided to do so after a manhunt was launched by police.
Following media appeals for their whereabouts, she said: “We weren’t just running from private investigators, running from my family or social services, we were running from the entire public.”
She also recalled that she and her husband had previously lived in a tent before the birth of their eldest child, and stressed: “My number one priority was to keep my baby.”

What a sad, twisted irony.

"My number one priority was to keep my baby".

Going on the lam with that baby resulted in her death.

Accidental death? Those happen. Sometimes without charges.

The real offense is the lam.

Had Victoria's birth been registered, she'd have been taken away. She'd be alive.

Question for CM, an answer I'd be afraid to hear -- would it be better (for you) for Victoria to be alive as a ward of state or for her to have been with you, just for her short life?

It appears we have two adults who share the same grandiose delusion.

Frightening really.

 

[Smccat]

From the Independent Live Stream

16:20

Trial has adjourned for the day​

The trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon has adjourned for the day and will resume tomorrow at 10.30am where the cross-examination will continue.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Maybe Big Daddy was worried someone might be tracking him from his footprints across the streets of London.

I think he’s paid a lot for those trainers and wants to keep them clean!

 

[InstantCoffee]

I think MG is playing a very clever game here. In not taking the stand when CM has, he has become a shadowy figure in the background while CM shoots her mouth off and makes plenty more headlines. She is the one who is apparently admitting some guilt on the stand, saying it could have happened anywhere, entirely the result of her accidently falling asleep etc etc. Meanwhile he just keeps his counsel (quite literally!)

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Do we think that either of them had a psych evaluation once they had been arrested and in custody ? Wouldnt they have checked their medical records also?

Probably & deemed fit to stand trial (but not fit to be caring for children …)

 

[porkypies]

CM
“I don’t think being in the tent was the wrong thing to do, I think me being exhausted and sitting up at that time was very unfortunate yes.”
When questioned “Are you responsible for her death?”, she tearfully responded: “To a degree of course, I feel responsible as her mum for her death but at the same time I have to love and forgive myself because it was a really awful set of circumstances but I didn’t mean to fall asleep.”

I can form a picture from this.
As her mother, CM says she feels responsible 'to a degree', and that looks good on paper and contains an element of truth. I wonder if she does not know how Victoria died? thus she says that she is in part responsible, and may have been persuaded so, because she was asleep at the time. And someone has counselled her to 'love and forgive' herself making neither of them really to blame?
A case of "do you realise what you've done/let happen" but don't worry it's down to this "really awful set of circumstances"and you didn't mean to do it.

 

[rockthecasbah]

From BBC:

"I used to babysit some kids in Switzerland when I was a teenager and they had a new-born baby and a three-year-old. I would take the baby in a pram down the ski slope in a snow blizzard.

"We would be out there for hours."

I hope she took better care of them.

 

[CaptainNancy]

Just catching up on today so far. Either her KC hasn't been able to persuade her to stop with the ridiculous answers or he hasn't tried!

So we've had living like Bedouin and Jesus today! Jesus... comparing their situation to 2000 years ago etc. I think she quite likes to think of them as persecuted and having to go through Biblical situations... perhaps even down to her child being born on 24th December and there being 'no room at the (Premier) inn'! There will be a star over Harwich next!

And when arguing semantics about dumped vs placed:
When countered that a sandwich wrapper and a beer can had also been found in the bag, she responded: “The can was quite a while afterwards.” Like that makes a difference! Looking at the video again of the bag when found by police - it was filthy, full of filthy rags, cans, leaves, wrappers... just abhorrent but she really can't seem to see it. I really do hope she is judged to be mentally unwell after this trial because if she is sane then she is an incredible piece of work!

Her KC isn’t allowed to be in contact with her at all while she is acting as a witness. None of her legal / defence team are. It is not allowed to advise a witness on what to say or not say.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

From BBC:

"I used to babysit some kids in Switzerland when I was a teenager and they had a new-born baby and a three-year-old. I would take the baby in a pram down the ski slope in a snow blizzard.

"We would be out there for hours."

I hope she took better care of them.

One is assuming though that both of those children were suitably dressed for the snow.

 

[InstantCoffee]

Her KC isn’t allowed to be in contact with her at all while she is acting as a witness. None of her legal / defence team are. It is not allowed to advise a witness on what to say or not say.

Well that certainly explains things! Her Defence team must be beside themselves by now!!

 

[Maltesepuppy]

I think he’s paid a lot for those trainers and wants to keep them clean!

Her trust funds paid a lot for those trainers

 

[Kye Zeeb]

What a sad, twisted irony.

"My number one priority was to keep my baby".

Going on the lam with that baby resulted in her death.

Accidental death? Those happen. Sometimes without charges.

The real offense is the lam.

Had Victoria's birth been registered, she'd have been taken away. She'd be alive.

Question for CM, an answer I'd be afraid to hear -- would it be better (for you) for Victoria to be alive as a ward of state or for her to have been with you, just for her short life?

It appears we have two adults who share the same grandiose delusion.

Frightening really.

I had to google "on the lam" as I'd never heard that phrase before (it means on the run). Probably because I'm in the UK and it's a USA term.

 

[Alyce]

'I would do anything to protect my child to prevent her being taken by the system that's abhorrent, yeah.'

She claimed two of her other four children were spat on and physically abused after being taken into care previously.

Constance Marten invokes Jesus as she defends living in tent with baby

The wealthy aristocrat, who alongside her partner Mark Gordon, is accused of the manslaughter of her daughter Victoria who passed away while they were camping in the South Downs in winter last year.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Yellowbelly]

I think MG is playing a very clever game here. In not taking the stand when CM has, he has become a shadowy figure in the background while CM shoots her mouth off and makes plenty more headlines. She is the one who is apparently admitting some guilt on the stand, saying it could have happened anywhere, entirely the result of her accidently falling asleep etc etc. Meanwhile he just keeps his counsel (quite literally!)

Perhaps MG actually listened to his barrister!

 

[Maltesepuppy]

Her top comment infuriated me, even though I didn’t expect differently. There’s pittance in UK foster care and you add petrol, complete disruption to your family’s schedule (eg. If a contact session changes, that takes priority, so your plans are cancelled, attempts to do several school or nursery runs), FC often topping up very small social services allowances and providing clothes out of their own pocket for youngsters, there’s no financial aspect at all. The career thing comes from two different views FC have that are debated at times within the industry (I’m sure there are plenty in between too) - some still see it as parenting, but are trying to highlight that with all the commitments (including clear and detailed log notes, attending contact sessions etc), it’s also a career choice. This tends to be linked to providing more support, training and better pay for a difficult job. The other side argue it’s just parenting, but this side are often the older generation of carers and - in a sense - see it more as a charitable family act and want to get on with what they’ve got.

Neither side of debate means they don’t care deeply about the children, tuck them in at night and so on. They will offer hugs but not force them because of potential abuse and child’s rights. They may hug a child to the side of them if sexually inappropriate behaviour becomes and issue and give clear guidance on ‘the way we hug’ to help children relearn what’s appropriate. They aren’t supposed to tickle them (the tickler can be the one with power) and they have to follow safer caring rules to protect the children and themselves. This is all in place for specific reasons.

Equally, if there are multiple children from multiple families placed then needs may cross slightly. In relation to the telly comment, if a child in the house was very unused to quiet and it was distressing them, the foster care may keep the telly on to meet this need and then gradually reduce it. Equally, if a child only ever ate baked beans on toast and rich tea biscuits, they’d sometimes start from that point to introduce new meals. It’s very easy for foster carers to get slated for their techniques because they’re the opposite of the way you parent neurotypical, non traumatised children. Some adoptive parents are surprised at first too, but often then use other techniques.

There have been big changes since I was adopted (v early 90s), which was really the start of those changes, but nowadays, substandard parenting isn’t very accepted for foster carers and the appearance of it tends to be in relation to gradually supporting the children through change rather than anything else. There are a few times a foster carer or adoptive parent slips through that net and COVID complicated assessments, but on the whole, these are people involved in the fostering and adoption community who are regularly assessed and have specific training.

Definitely. I once worked with a family whose children went into care. Severe domestic abuse, drug abuse and mental health plus the inevitable neglect that goes with this scenario.
One child not quite 2 was spotted by neighbours in a balcony full of furniture and boxes. He was there for hours until the ambulance arrived, as no one could wake up his drugged up mother.
The foster carers loved these kids. They thrived in their care.
Their parents attended court a year later, still failing their drugs tests and still taking about their children being 'stolen for profit'

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Those who don't see this should examine their assumptions. Start by asking whether if a parent acted that way in North Korea they'd view things differently. If so, are assumptions about a difference between Britain and North Korea influencing their conclusions? What are those assumptions? Are they valid? This is how to check one isn't fooling oneself.

She sounds like my own and many other birth parents - someone I have deep empathy with but ultimately could not put the needs of her child first. If she was from North Korea, I’d feel the same.

Lots of anti social services people argue in the same tone and using the same vocabulary and slightly bizarre comparisons. My birth mum does too. She was also a COVID denier, despite previously having been a nurse. If you heard her family stories, you’d be shocked, appalled and devastated - and rightly so, but it didn’t change her ability to parent me as a baby at the time.

IMO I would be fooling myself if I believed that this death was a random occurrence, that all her children were wrongly removed, that it was a safe family with a safe ‘daddy bear’ where both parents loved and supported each other to thrive. I regularly examine my opinions and have thought from the beginning there was some coercive control element for CM from MG from a covert narc type of perspective (JMOO). I empathise with her loss, just as I do with my own birth parents, I recognise her trauma. but I also recognise it’s not about the rights of a parent trumping putting a child at risk.

A parent and mother can be both under pressure and heartbroken from their dealings with social services - and rightly judged as unable to parent the children who are being assessed at the time. If you want to debate the side of a women willing to sign her child’s birth certificate away to a random stranger as being purely due to victimisation by the state, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[crespo29]

This "in it for the money" accusation is never one that seems to be levelled at childminders, nursery nurses, teachers, or paediatric nurses... all of whom earn significantly more ph than foster carers.

I saw an advert from my local authority for supported lodgings carers (seems to be like foster care lite, for 16-21 year old care leavers). The money on offer was only about £100 per month more than I currently rent out the spare room to a lodger - and with that £100 I'd have to provide food and many hours of support. It's just not realistic - if I were seriously interested I'd expect to be paid market rent for the room, minimum wage for the hours, and the food reimbursed.

The whole foster care system is stuck in the 1950s, when stay at home house wives were the norm and many people had spare rooms because housing was affordable. I don't think the model is fit for purpose in 2024, when dual incomes are an economic necessity.

If foster carers were paid a proper wage plus expenses then I'm sure more would be able to afford to be a foster carer.

CM is talking about

She also recalled that she and her husband had previously lived in a tent before the birth of their eldest child, and stressed: “My number one priority was to keep my baby.”

I'm not sure she is doing herself any favours by repeating this assertion. Her number one priority should have been to look after her child properly, and keep her safe and warm. I do believe that she loved her, but she just can't see that it's not enough on it's own. JMO.

To be fair, 'to keep my baby' implies that she wanted to keep the baby alive. I think we can all be too guilty at times to take a phrase said in the heat of the moment and try to give it other meanings.

 

[DianaWW]

CM is talking about

To be fair, 'to keep my baby' implies that she wanted to keep the baby alive. I think we can all be too guilty at times to take a phrase said in the heat of the moment and try to give it other meanings.

It doesn’t imply that to me, but that’s just my opinion.