UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[kittythehare]

In my fantasy experiment land, CM would be allowed to leave jail on the condition that she lives in one of her parent's homes, while they act as her 'keepers'.
She would be allowed to set up a tent in the backyard and live it, MG can visit her under supervised conditions, so as not to scare her family or any nearby neighbours.

If she becomes pregnant again while living in that imaginary tent on the family lawn, she will have to take heavy duty child rearing classes and give birth with backup medical assistance should it be required.
She could stay with that baby to prove herself a worthy mother and to provide the all important new born nursing, but under strict supervision.
MG meanwhile, could be trained in how to be a good daddy bear, by encouraging CM to follow those rules such as they are, maybe even leave CM for the long term good of all of them.
Not that i think they should have - and keep another baby, but wondering if they would, or even could do it properly after all this?

Maybe i missed it, but did either one ever ask about the cat that they left at the side of the road?
imo speculation.

Love it.
The cat bothered me too, still does.

 

[kittythehare]

22 minutes ago

Jurors reminded of moment Marten and Gordon were arrested​

The court heard how the couple were arrested after 53 days on the run.
Summing up, Judge Lucraft reminded jurors how the couple were spotted by a member of the public as they bought food from Mulberry convenience shop in Brighton on 27 February last year.
When police arrested them at nearby Stanmer Villas, Marten had what appeared to be furniture stuffing in her jacket as insulation.
The court previously heard how Marten told police her name was Arabella and said “you can’t arrest someone for hiding a pregnancy” when she was caught

Constance Marten trial enters final stages as judge summing up evidence - live

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

Oh God
another day..

 

[Nikynoo]

Love it.
The cat bothered me too, still does.

the cat is fine and was rehomed. It was on one of the podcasts.

 

[kittythehare]

the cat is fine and was rehomed. It was on one of the podcasts.

Thank you...That's amazing..
Good news.

 

[jackal67]

We do know they didn’t turn up for planned visits for months on end though don’t we? Possibly due to paranoia/they wanted CCTV etc…but still! They were given the opportunity to make the necessary changes needed to be good parents to their children, and to keep custody, but they didn’t do that. I know it’s not black and white, and I do empathise to a certain extent, but it’s really difficult to excuse some of their actions, when they refuse to acknowledge that they’ve made any mistakes. JMO.

Also they left baby number 4 at the hospital against advice and refused covid tests to re enter! Refused entry to SS and failed to engage with them
I am sure that had they behaved differently from the very beginning the outcome may have been very different
Going back to pregnancy number one, Living in a tent , not having bought anything needed for the new baby ,lying to hospital and SS. They had 9 months to prepare for a newborn ,find suitable housing ,get ante natal care but did none of this !! No excuse in my book. They were grown adults with access to trust fund money.

 

[DianaWW]

Also they left baby number 4 at the hospital against advice and refused covid tests to re enter! Refused entry to SS and failed to engage with them
I am sure that had they behaved differently from the very beginning the outcome may have been very different
Going back to pregnancy number. Living in a tent , not having bought anything needed for the new baby ,lying to hospital and SS. They had 9 months to prepare for a newborn ,find suitable housing ,get ante natal care but did none of this !!

Exactly. It’s the unwillingness to learn from their mistakes and make changes that really grinds my gears. This was all so avoidable. JMO.

 

[OceanElix]

we don't know that though do we - we only know what is reported including the remarks of the judge of the childcare case.

Yes we do, it's earlier in the threads as it was noted that CM had a parent and baby placement with a previous child, she was offered this support and guidance already. (limited information allowed to be reported given that it relates to previous children) She clearly wasn't willing to learn or accept this as she has gone on to make very dire choices imo

 

[Lifeonaline]

There are a few things that the prosecution could have used more effectively to discredit CM testimony.

1. During summing up, they could have revisited the lack of appropriate clothing for Victoria, especially the hat (essential for a newborn) by showing the cctv video in the kebab shop which clearly shows her wearing just a sleepsuit. No hat, mittens, cardigan or even a basic baby blanket to wrap her in. Whilst both MG and CM were sitting there bundled up with plenty of warm clothing including coats.
They could have extended the video to include them both preparing to leave, and then actually leaving the kebab shop which would very likely have shown if they did, or didn't put a hat on her, or wrap her snuggly in a blanket prior to walking out of the shop with Victoria in the buggy.

I know that the jury had already seen the footage, but it would have only taken a minute or two to link the jury back to it during summing up. Instead of just saying CM told some "big fat lies" he could have proven it.

2. They could have got Argos to confirm that the buggy did NOT come with a thermal sub zero type of sleeping bag. That in fact NO buggy brands or models that are sold in Argos come with a sleeping bag of that type.

Many do come with a footmuff, but that is not the same thing at all, and they would not be able to protect a newborn from the elements when the temperature is that low. (wearing layers of appropriate clothing and blankets in conjunction with a footmuff, perhaps possible, but she didn't have those)

Argos could have given over copies of their catalogues from the last few years for another layer of proof that CM was not telling the truth.
Instead of simply calling her a liar, he could have  proved that she was lying.

3. At first CM stated during the police interviews that Victoria had died before they got to the south downs, but that was disproved as baby Victoria was seen on cctv footage from a taxi after they left the place where she said she died.
(one of the ports I think)

Presumably when she learnt that Victoria had been seen on the taxi camera, she changed her mind regarding where they were when she died.

I can understand getting mixed up with date of when Victoria died due to the chaotic constantly moving, but the location ? No.

Some missed opportunities to show rather than just say that CM testimony was not a very reliable one.

 

[kittythehare]

Exactly. It’s the unwillingness to learn from their mistakes and make changes that really grinds my gears. This was all so avoidable. JMO.

There were more than enough grounds for an insanity defence, it seems to me.

they had so many choices.
Buy a house.
Have baby
Stay indoors or out of sight. Pretend it's someone else's if spotted..
That would have bought a lot of time..

Enough to get the child walking and time to regularise their affairs so they could travel to a new country.. assuming their affairs are not particularly egregious..
Educate the child along the way.
Use alt practitioners for his or her meds.. hope no surgery is ever required..

Like the 30 something burner phones did it for me..
When sims would have sufficed.
Everybody knows that..

Even hardened criminals don't run that many devices.
None of this makes sense and she is as much of a stranger now as she was at the beginning.

We know she is vulnerable to mind control- the cult..

It's such a symbiotic relationship..
They're prisoners and jailers of each other..

That's a lot of speculation from me but I can't make it fit.
Anything.
Known or unknown.

If , for example they planned a massive bank hoist- how would that have worked out for them? No children involved?

 

[Alyce]

There are a few things that the prosecution could have used more effectively to discredit CM testimony.

1. During summing up, they could have revisited the lack of appropriate clothing for Victoria, especially the hat (essential for a newborn) by showing the cctv video in the kebab shop which clearly shows her wearing just a sleepsuit. No hat, mittens, cardigan or even a basic baby blanket to wrap her in. Whilst both MG and CM were sitting there bundled up with plenty of warm clothing including coats.
They could have extended the video to include them both preparing to leave, and then actually leaving the kebab shop which would very likely have shown if they did, or didn't put a hat on her, or wrap her snuggly in a blanket prior to walking out of the shop with Victoria in the buggy.

I know that the jury had already seen the footage, but it would have only taken a minute or two to link the jury back to it during summing up. Instead of just saying CM told some "big fat lies" he could have proven it.

2. They could have got Argos to confirm that the buggy did NOT come with a thermal sub zero type of sleeping bag. That in fact NO buggy brands or models that are sold in Argos come with a sleeping bag of that type.

Many do come with a footmuff, but that is not the same thing at all, and they would not be able to protect a newborn from the elements when the temperature is that low. (wearing layers of appropriate clothing and blankets in conjunction with a footmuff, perhaps possible, but she didn't have those)

Argos could have given over copies of their catalogues from the last few years for another layer of proof that CM was not telling the truth.
Instead of simply calling her a liar, he could have  proved that she was lying.

3. At first CM stated during the police interviews that Victoria had died before they got to the south downs, but that was disproved as baby Victoria was seen on cctv footage from a taxi after they left the place where she said she died.
(one of the ports I think)

Presumably when she learnt that Victoria had been seen on the taxi camera, she changed her mind regarding where they were when she died.

I can understand getting mixed up with date of when Victoria died due to the chaotic constantly moving, but the location ? No.

Some missed opportunities to show rather than just say that CM testimony was not a very reliable one.

From the evidence provided when Tom Little was doing his closing speech....

Prosecutor shows pram to jurors ​

Lead prosecutor Tom Little KC has just brought a pram into the courtoom to show jurors the type that was purchased by the couple for baby Victoria, which he claims exposes an “obvious lie” told by Marten.
He invited jurors to recall Marten’s “indignation” as she insisted the prosecution had the wrong pram – adding it came with “sub zero sleeping bag” and a muff.
“We know it was the only buggy purchased,” Mr Little told the court.
“This is the buggy. It doesn’t have a sub zero sleeping bag. It doesn’t have a muff with a zip.”


In the Podcast ( The Trial one ) - the reporters advise that the police went back to Argos to try and purchase the same buggy.
The buggy had been discontinued , but police managed to find the exact model, a second hand one, on line - and it was this buggy that was brought into the court room, as above.

 

[DianaWW]

There were more than enough grounds for an insanity defence, it seems to me.

they had so many choices.
Buy a house.
Have baby
Stay indoors or out of sight. Pretend it's someone else's if spotted..
That would have bought a lot of time..

Enough to get the child walking and time to regularise their affairs so they could travel to a new country.. assuming their affairs are not particularly egregious..
Educate the child along the way.
Use alt practitioners for his or her meds.. hope no surgery is ever required..

Like the 30 something burner phones did it for me..
When sims would have sufficed.
Everybody knows that..

Even hardened criminals don't run that many devices.
None of this makes sense and she is as much of a stranger now as she was at the beginning.

We know she is vulnerable to mind control- the cult..

It's such a symbiotic relationship..
They're prisoners and jailers of each other..

That's a lot of speculation from me but I can't make it fit.
Anything.
Known or unknown.

If , for example they planned a massive bank hoist- how would that have worked out for them? No children involved?

Yeah I agree. There are definitely some mental health issues, but the problem with going down that route is they’d have to agree to any kind of assessment? (Don’t quote me on that, I may be wrong!) And they’d definitely have to agree to let their legal teams use it as an defence. But they really can’t see that there’s a problem, and don’t seem to think they’ve done anything wrong!

 

[kittythehare]

Yeah I agree. There are definitely some mental health issues, but the problem with going down that route is they’d have to agree to any kind of assessment? (Don’t quote me on that, I may be wrong!) And they’d definitely have to agree to let their legal teams use it as an defence. But they really can’t see that there’s a problem, and don’t seem to think they’ve done anything wrong!

I was blaming the oh so public chase and garish headlines but those burner phones were purchased before any chase.

We're never going to know, are we?

Is there something else going on?
something that he would have been asked about had he taken the stand?

I don't mean Vallow Daybell style but some kind of a cult thing with just the 2 of them?
Or are there others?

<modsnip - inappropriate>

 

[Lifeonaline]

I agree. Giving birth in a cottage sounds way better than the back seat of a car !
It seems very convenient that the birth happened at a holiday cottage which was pre booked , She may not even have been aware of her due date as she had had no medical attention dating scans etc !

That is a very good point, without antenatal care and scans her due date was a guess.

Even if they were actively planning to get pregnant, I would think it unlikely that they would have been doing ovulation charts etc to keep track, as (imo) they seemed to have been living a rather chaotic lifestyle even before they were evicted.

As this was her 5th pregnancy, she would most likely have had a rough idea of the stages of pregnancy that she was at. However, even if you know your due date it's normal to give birth at any time between 37 and 42 weeks.

Imagine the uncertainty if you don't even have a due date to go by !

 

[Baby baby Jane]

There were more than enough grounds for an insanity defence, it seems to me.

they had so many choices.
Buy a house.
Have baby
Stay indoors or out of sight. Pretend it's someone else's if spotted..
That would have bought a lot of time..

Enough to get the child walking and time to regularise their affairs so they could travel to a new country.. assuming their affairs are not particularly egregious..
Educate the child along the way.
Use alt practitioners for his or her meds.. hope no surgery is ever required..

Like the 30 something burner phones did it for me..
When sims would have sufficed.
Everybody knows that..

Even hardened criminals don't run that many devices.
None of this makes sense and she is as much of a stranger now as she was at the beginning.

We know she is vulnerable to mind control- the cult..

It's such a symbiotic relationship..
They're prisoners and jailers of each other..

That's a lot of speculation from me but I can't make it fit.
Anything.
Known or unknown.

If , for example they planned a massive bank hoist- how would that have worked out for them? No children involved?

Fairly certain that insanity defense can only be used when it can be shown defendant did not know “right from wrong” or didn’t know what they were doing at time of the crime.
You can have mental illness and not be “insane because u know right from wrong”. Person knows what they are doing can cause death, injury, etc.

Mainly, you can be unfit to stand trial … trial delayed until you are well enough, or if can successfully use “by reason if insanity” you still get convicted and put in a mental health facility until it’s deemed you are no danger which can be very very long time.

 

[kittythehare]

Fairly certain that insanity defense can only be used when it can be shown defendant did not know “right from wrong” or didn’t know what they were doing at time of the crime.
You can have mental illness and not be “insane because u know right from wrong”. Person knows what they are doing can cause death, injury, etc.

Mainly, you can be unfit to stand trial … trial delayed until you are well enough, or if can successfully use “by reason if insanity” you still get convicted and put in a mental health facility until it’s deemed you are no danger which can be very very long time.

I didn't mean a defence, I meant more a sympathy type thing... she must have been advised it was an option..
but probably wouldn't submit to an assessment which is even more evidence of twisted thinking..
like outrageously twisted..
It's possible she holds some belief about it which is equally nonsensical..

It's all very sad and it's all very boring too..

I still don't know whether I'd like her or not if I met her socially..
No vibe... zilch..
Arabella.

 

[Nikynoo]

Also they left baby number 4 at the hospital against advice and refused covid tests to re enter! Refused entry to SS and failed to engage with them
I am sure that had they behaved differently from the very beginning the outcome may have been very different
Going back to pregnancy number one, Living in a tent , not having bought anything needed for the new baby ,lying to hospital and SS. They had 9 months to prepare for a newborn ,find suitable housing ,get ante natal care but did none of this !! No excuse in my book. They were grown adults with access to trust fund money.

You are incorrect in respect to baby 1. They were living in a tent whilst c was pregnant but moved into accommodation either before or when the baby was born. They were monitored by SS for a period of time and subsequently no longer monitored by SS.

 

[Nikynoo]

There are a few things that the prosecution could have used more effectively to discredit CM testimony.

1. During summing up, they could have revisited the lack of appropriate clothing for Victoria, especially the hat (essential for a newborn) by showing the cctv video in the kebab shop which clearly shows her wearing just a sleepsuit. No hat, mittens, cardigan or even a basic baby blanket to wrap her in. Whilst both MG and CM were sitting there bundled up with plenty of warm clothing including coats.
They could have extended the video to include them both preparing to leave, and then actually leaving the kebab shop which would very likely have shown if they did, or didn't put a hat on her, or wrap her snuggly in a blanket prior to walking out of the shop with Victoria in the buggy.

I know that the jury had already seen the footage, but it would have only taken a minute or two to link the jury back to it during summing up. Instead of just saying CM told some "big fat lies" he could have proven it.

2. They could have got Argos to confirm that the buggy did NOT come with a thermal sub zero type of sleeping bag. That in fact NO buggy brands or models that are sold in Argos come with a sleeping bag of that type.

Many do come with a footmuff, but that is not the same thing at all, and they would not be able to protect a newborn from the elements when the temperature is that low. (wearing layers of appropriate clothing and blankets in conjunction with a footmuff, perhaps possible, but she didn't have those)

Argos could have given over copies of their catalogues from the last few years for another layer of proof that CM was not telling the truth.
Instead of simply calling her a liar, he could have  proved that she was lying.

3. At first CM stated during the police interviews that Victoria had died before they got to the south downs, but that was disproved as baby Victoria was seen on cctv footage from a taxi after they left the place where she said she died.
(one of the ports I think)

Presumably when she learnt that Victoria had been seen on the taxi camera, she changed her mind regarding where they were when she died.

I can understand getting mixed up with date of when Victoria died due to the chaotic constantly moving, but the location ? No.

Some missed opportunities to show rather than just say that CM testimony was not a very reliable one.

Your number 3. I don’t think they camped before arriving at the South Downs. CM initially said Harwich as she knew it was a port, but they didn’t camp at Harwich. So, if the baby did die in the tent as they stated it was either in Newhaven or where they camped in Brighton

 

[Nikynoo]

From the evidence provided when Tom Little was doing his closing speech....

Prosecutor shows pram to jurors ​

Lead prosecutor Tom Little KC has just brought a pram into the courtoom to show jurors the type that was purchased by the couple for baby Victoria, which he claims exposes an “obvious lie” told by Marten.
He invited jurors to recall Marten’s “indignation” as she insisted the prosecution had the wrong pram – adding it came with “sub zero sleeping bag” and a muff.
“We know it was the only buggy purchased,” Mr Little told the court.
“This is the buggy. It doesn’t have a sub zero sleeping bag. It doesn’t have a muff with a zip.”


In the Podcast ( The Trial one ) - the reporters advise that the police went back to Argos to try and purchase the same buggy.
The buggy had been discontinued , but police managed to find the exact model, a second hand one, on line - and it was this buggy that was brought into the court room, as above.

So where did they buy the foot if, as it can clearly be seen in the CCTV?

 

[Nikynoo]

Yes we do, it's earlier in the threads as it was noted that CM had a parent and baby placement with a previous child, she was offered this support and guidance already. (limited information allowed to be reported given that it relates to previous children) She clearly wasn't willing to learn or accept this as she has gone on to make very dire choices imo

This was with the first baby correct ?

 

[DianaWW]

So where did they buy the foot if, as it can clearly be seen in the CCTV?

The foot muff did come with the buggy, there was an error in the reporting from the Independent I think. The podcast said something like ‘there was no sub zero sleeping bag, there was just a foot muff’, and then went on to add that it was put over her as a way to conceal her and that she wasn’t zipped inside. (Obviously the accusation that they were using it to conceal her is speculation on his part, I don’t think the fact they placed it over her necessarily points to that, and could have just been carelessness).

18.32 mins in on the transcription:

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-mark-gordon-big-fat-lies-01hvkm8x4ryn7b756mwg9m71y7