UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[10ofRods]

I thought that too, but now they seem to be saying that they never established the sex of the baby, so perhaps those samples weren't usable, either because of what portion of the tissue was sampled (only the chorionic side has the baby's DNA) or because of damage from the intensely high temperature of the car fire, etc. I don't think it automatically goes without saying that they will have a usable DNA sample for the baby, or indeed that they have solid DNA evidence that the blood or placenta is CM's. The conclusion that the material belonged to CM and her presumed baby was probably arrived at in conjunction with the CCTV identification and some kind of administrative paper trail too.

I'm not saying that a flat denial that there was ever a baby would be plausible to my mind, but legally it might have mileage, depending on what samples were taken and how degraded they were or weren't.

JMO

There aren't many ways to procure a placenta, though. Every cell in the placenta would indicate that it's a placenta cell (unless the lab is completely incompetent, which I highly doubt).

Usable DNA? Maybe not. But where there's a placenta, there's a woman whose body produced it.

Besides, wasn't the baby actually seen? I'm confused.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

There aren't many ways to procure a placenta, though. Every cell in the placenta would indicate that it's a placenta cell (unless the lab is completely incompetent, which I highly doubt).

Usable DNA? Maybe not. But where there's a placenta, there's a woman whose body produced it.

Besides, wasn't the baby actually seen? I'm confused.

I dont think the baby was actually ever 'seen', a taxi driver said he heard the baby crying and saw it moving.

 

[tedtink]

Some taxis have charging ports in them. I’m sure some buses and trains do too. I’ve charged my phone in all sorts of weird places on my travels.

Maybe they had a portable charger or power bank for the phones.

 

[lala88]

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[lala88]

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[lala88]

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[rhino]

One thing I've been wondering is how they managed to get so many taxis with a newborn and no car seat. I can only assume it would be illegal to carry your newborn in your arms inside a car. There are specific rules on which car seat needs to be used, which seat it needs to be on, which way it needs to be facing, and how it should be strapped in, etc. Do taxi drivers routinely keep a newborn carseat in their boots, just in case? Or would it be a case of CM flashing the cash to let them carry their baby in the back?

Car seat laws don’t apply to taxis.

Child car seats: the law

The rules for child car seats and booster seats - height, weight, age, type of vehicle, car, minibus, licensed taxi

www.gov.uk

 

[lala88]

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[Nikynoo]

Given the charge under investigation is now manslaughter, what rights does CM have over her body, given that various aspects of it now have investigative value?

I mean, for instance, if she's still lactating that might tell the police something about how recently the baby could have been alive. Can she refuse to submit to an examination that would give them that information?

If she denies that there was ever a baby in the first place, can they force her to submit to a pelvic exam that evidences recent parturition? I assume they can compel a DNA sample to compare with the placental/chorionic tissue, but if the placenta is too degraded for a useful result, could they compel something more invasive?

Sorry if this is a bit grim for discussion. It's not a point of law that arises very often, I imagine, and I just thought it was interesting to consider what rights to bodily autonomy would remain after arrest for a serious crime.

A good question that I do not the answer to. I do know that the police can and will collect a DNA swab upon arrest.

 

[Nell91]

Still no news?

 

[Rileysmum]

I wonder what the solicitors thoughts are on this. Are they advising them to go no comment or are they suggesting they confirm where the baby is. Imagine being in that situation……I’d be just “tell them” JMO

 

[Nell91]

Even if they just say baby is alive and safe it's something please be the case.

 

[Nikynoo]

I wonder what the solicitors thoughts are on this. Are they advising them to go no comment or are they suggesting they confirm where the baby is. Imagine being in that situation……I’d be just “tell them” JMO

Depends on what evidence the police have as to what advice is given.

You can advise your client, it does not mean that the client has to take that advice.

 

[Telltale]

I wonder what the solicitors thoughts are on this. Are they advising them to go no comment or are they suggesting they confirm where the baby is. Imagine being in that situation……I’d be just “tell them” JMO

You would hope any solicitor with a soul would be telling them to tell police where the baby is, no matter how good or bad that is for their client.

 

[Rileysmum]

You would hope any solicitor with a soul would be telling them to tell police where the baby is, no matter how good or bad that is for their client.

I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I didn’t ‘advise’ to disclose. I know they don’t have to listen but for my own sanity I’d have to do that

 

[Nikynoo]

I was going to ask similar about whether a blood sample (or urine) would show if she had been lactating recently, which might give an indication she was still caring for a live baby recently.

I think this is all hard ground for investigators. I sometimes see the blood samples thing turn up in US tv, and lawyers can be very determined against such a search, but a judge can give permission to force a blood test if they feel it's legal to do that. Over here, I guess you might also have to go to a judge for an invasive search. But we have two things here - investigation to see if the baby may have recently been alive and in CM's care (as in being breast-fed) and then longer term considerations for potential prosecution. I think the former is the current and major concern.

If this went to court as a manslaughter case, then if CM chose to argue that she hadn't been pregnant it would be about her legal team wanting to 'prove' that claim to a jury, and if she couldn't provide strong evidence of not being pregnant, I think there's plenty of circumstantial evidence (placenta and taxi drivers hearing a baby cry) for a jury to decide she did give birth to a live child. I don't see any legal need right now for an invasive (pelvic) exam on CM for investigative reasons, but that's just my thoughts.

I think the onus is on the prosecution to prove that she did give birth. To do this, I suspect that they would test the placenta to establish that C did give birth. Then the prosecution would need to prove that the birth was a 'live' birth and so on etc. There are a lot of things that the prosecution would need evidence to prove their case. It will be interestingly to see what they are charged with.

 

[Haveyoufedthecat]

I'm wondering if she has had a psychiatric assessment as to her state of mind or maybe a psychiatrist is watching unseen to see how she reacts to questioning. I'm personally very disturbed by the fact they will not disclose the baby's whereabouts. My opinion only BUT, they are not going to walk away from this so even if the baby is with someone she won't be seeing that baby again. I'm trying to hope that the wall of silence is because the baby is with someone and being looked after. If the wall of silence is because they have abandoned the baby then I sincerely hope that they feel the full force of the law. I should think it goes without saying that Police are trawling any of her social media, personal friends and any other connections.

 

[infinit]

I'm wondering if she has had a psychiatric assessment as to her state of mind or maybe a psychiatrist is watching unseen to see how she reacts to questioning. I'm personally very disturbed by the fact they will not disclose the baby's whereabouts. My opinion only BUT, they are not going to walk away from this so even if the baby is with someone she won't be seeing that baby again. I'm trying to hope that the wall of silence is because the baby is with someone and being looked after. If the wall of silence is because they have abandoned the baby then I sincerely hope that they feel the full force of the law. I should think it goes without saying that Police are trawling any of her social media, personal friends and any other connections.

I think that would be down to expert witnesses to evaluate if it proceeds to trial.

In terms of being in custody, they'd be primarily concerned about do they have capacity and/or do they need immediate treatment/ a Mental Health Act assessment I believe (though happy for someone with more knowledge to state otherwise!)

https://www.essex.police.uk/foi-ai/essex-police/our-policies-and-procedures/e/e0506-procedure--custody-mental-health-assessments/

 

[imstilla.grandma]

More than 200 police are searching for the newborn within a 10-mile radius between Brighton and Newhaven, East Sussex, around the area where the pair were arrested.

Police are carrying out tests on the baby's placenta that was found left in the couple's car found abandoned on the M61 in Bolton, Greater Manchester, on January 5. The baby is not believed to have seen a doctor since it was born.

A red search dogs van was seen making its way into Golf Drive.

Photos show searchers gathered with a dog among them.

Hunt continues for aristocrat's baby after freezing night - latest updates

Missing former aristocrat Constance Marten and her partner Mark Gordon were arrested in Brighton, East Sussex, last night as police continue to search for their newborn child

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[MrsWatson]

There's a bunch of articles on the Daily Mail website. Lots of various pics, some we maybe haven't seen before. Here's a link to one article.

Police search for Constance Marten's's missing baby continues

Fears are growing for runaway aristocrat Constance Marten's baby after it emerged that she visited a food bank without have been without their baby for at least a week, MailOnline can reveal.

www.dailymail.co.uk