pineapple23
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Probably unavoidable in the circumstances. But avoidable in that their choices/actions probably lead to its death. The poor wee thing stood no chance imo.
UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*
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amaraya
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when people did this, they had a whole community of people to support them. they had homes created with natural materials to keep them warm in freezing temperatures. they had midwives and others to help them.
the way that these two lived with this newborn is NOT how it was done years ago, safely. AND the infant mortality rate was VERY high in those times.
Nell91
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There's a big difference between inevitable and avoidable.
Scenario 1- Baby had a condition that meant it wouldn't thrive born in ANY situation, it would always pass away. Inevitable.
Scenario 2- Baby healthy, baby neglected, baby dies. Avoidable, and unfortunately looking like the more likely thing here which is unspeakably sad if true.
Scenario 1- Baby had a condition that meant it wouldn't thrive born in ANY situation, it would always pass away. Inevitable.
Scenario 2- Baby healthy, baby neglected, baby dies. Avoidable, and unfortunately looking like the more likely thing here which is unspeakably sad if true.
BaronessWombat
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Does anyone know if this would meet the criteria for a Serious Case Review? Obviously they've had a lot of agencies involved historically, but if no one knew she was pregnant would they still do one?
Telltale
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Women did do that many years ago.
Unfortunately, without adequate medical care, a clean environment and a safe warm home. They also lost a lot of their babies before they reached a year old - our ancestors were just lucky enough to be the siblings that survived.
Mothers of the past had no other options, these two did. If you deny a newborn modern living conditions, you risk medieval fatality rates. That is all the neglect that would be needed to produce this very predictable outcome.
IMO
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Terrible news. But yes, felt inevitable didn't it. What an awful pair, and I do now see two equally repulsive people. I am aware of all the coersive opportunities & patterns that could have presented here, but CM (described as 'very, very clever') has had chance to put the little one first over the last few days independent of MG & has chosen not to. Her wealth, intelligence, and privilege likely also counterbalances his sick violence.
As I say, what an awful pair.
<modsnip> these two will be incarcerated beyond their natural fertility (we hope) and there will be no more suffering for their babies. RIP
As I say, what an awful pair.
<modsnip> these two will be incarcerated beyond their natural fertility (we hope) and there will be no more suffering for their babies. RIP
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Probably for the handling once they realised she had given birth. They will want to look at if they could have done more to find them or if they could have acted in a way that could have prevented it. It will be a good learning tool, people try it all the time but rarely have the means to last more than 24 hours
candlemaker808
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It’s a horrible outcome, and feeling upset is completely understandable, but none of us know all of the facts yet.
I can't get my head around their intentions. Presumably, they wanted to be together and with the baby, if they wanted to be together without the baby then they didn't need to run as they could have handed baby into care. So the baby was wanted to the extent they took that huge decision to go on the run. But then this baby that lead them to that decision was easy for them to sacrifice to stay together. By sacrifice I mean there must have been signs even for them that baby needed more than they could give - if not signs of being ill, lethargic etc. - but as stated above they'd rather have a dead baby than a safe, living one to be together, so why not just be together in the first place and let the baby go?! I can't fathom it. MOO.
Nell91
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It's possible
They may do an inquiry instead as it is quite unique!
Remains of their baby have been found heartbreaking!
This is what I'm worried about, but if they knew that baby had nobody surely one of them would have. I said they wouldn't if they knew they were safe but to know your baby is left in the cold, out in the open crying hungry and wanting you, needing your warmth, you'd have to be very dark inside not to be able to muster the courage to speak up, if she was sperated from him and under his coercive control. Something deep inside you as a mother would make you surely make you need to tell them. Unless you already know it was too late. That's why I stuck toy guns so wrongly and said this baby was safe with someone.
Excellent post. Yes infant mortality used to be 50% even in 1900!! Doing this off the fly rather than because entire community of people having been living outdoors for years is totally different. Plus if struggling can get medical care. Plus not everyone can breastfeed even when they really want to - babies don’t always latch, when they’re tired or ill can be too hard work for them, and milk production can be inadequate when stressed etc
I am absolutely heartbroken. This was so unnecessary and a whole tiny little person has paid the price for two adults, both of who have made questionable life choices even up to the point of fleeing the car. All JMO.
RIP little bird. I hope he at least died in his mother’s arms rather than in the cold alone. What a horrible thing to have to wish!
armchairdetective123
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But even a baby with a condition deserves to be warm and in a loving environment. Even if it inevitably will die shortly after birth. For the short time it is on earth, it deserves the best care possible. Not sleeping in the woods.
Quietey
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(edited to add snipped, as it's this part I'm referring to)
Totally agree - possible to be both perpetrator and victim. We don't know much about what really happened and why. It just strikes me that terrible choices were made by two people who, for whatever reason, don't appear to be thinking rationally and maybe really aren't able to think rationally. This doesn't absolve the parents of blame - it is their fault - but if this is the case its a tragedy all round.
Nell91
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Oh of course, I totally agree! That's what I meant
Oh I believe they had the baby initially but I'm wondering whether it died a while back and they have taken its poor body down to Sussex to bury it. After tonight's press update, I'm undecided. Yes they were always hiding and going incognito but once they realised that the placenta had been found, they would have to provide some kind of evidence of a live baby as they were never going to entirely escape all the CCTV and potential eye-witnesses at their various locations. Either way, it's very sad. RIP little angel.
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