UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #14

[Ironside]

in essence we have a family with access to a large amount of money essentially putting themselves above the data protection laws and possibly getting access to vast amounts of very personal and possibily sensitive information

Edit: Nevermind just saw the possibly in your sentence.

 

[suzyjackson]

We know that the family have access to Corries sm/dating accounts, if they have been able to determine that he was logged on or using a certain one during the night, ( one which used location services). Could it be that they are able to get information from a company like that, regarding who else was in the same area? sometimes it's surprising what you agree to in terms of service.

That's a point we haven't been able to tie down fully, my view has been that they have access because they either have the passwords or the apps were left open on his laptop in his room.

I don't log out websites on my computer, anyone who has my computer has access to any websites that don't require you to log back in each time you open them. So not my bank account but my facebook and WS accounts.

You're right about the terms of use, I am careful not to accept anything that allows access to stuff on my computer but I don't know what I've agreed to with my phone contract

 

[Shiressleuth]

What have police said about this? Anything? Would MIS need court orders to obtain this data? Even if it is still available? I would have thought so but, like I said, perhaps they have ways of circumventing our laws if they just use terrorism as the excuse. JMO

 

[suzyjackson]

This article is 2 years old but gives some details on police access to mobile phone records

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ords-like-cash-machine-ripa-three-ee-vodafone

 

[carbuncle69]

About the Phone data. I work with far more sensitive data on behalf of a government department. Of course, you need the appropriate level of clearance to do this, but if I get requests of data, I am allowed to give out certain identifiers unencrypted. These are identifiers you can see on your own correspondence, but you couldn't go the other way (i.e. given the identifier you couldn't look up the individual).

Obviously, phone number is not such an identifier, but IMEI may well be viewed as such. I.e. the phone companies may be able to share IMEI/Mast/Time of connection/signal strength data, which the families investigators can then analyse and pass a list of IMEIs of interest.

If that can't be done, they can anonymise the data. I.e. replace any identifiable data with an arbitrary number. The analysis can then be done, and the outcome might be that "EE phone #43 and O2 phone #172" are of interest. The police can then request the details from the phone companies.

 

[jaam2017]

Corries family have answered more qna on the find corrie website

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[suzyjackson]

This is from the ee T and Cs

http://ee.co.uk/privacy-policy

I'm not a lawyer but access by a private investigator doesn't seem to be covered in Section 3, do we have any lawyers?

 

[Redgoblin]

What have police said about this? Anything? Would MIS need court orders to obtain this data? Even if it is still available? I would have thought so but, like I said, perhaps they have ways of circumventing our laws if they just use terrorism as the excuse. JMO

Definitely, this is why the government agreed on the snoopers charter recently...

Especially in light of terrorism related incidents.

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[Ironside]

This is from the ee T and Cs

http://ee.co.uk/privacy-policy

I'm not a lawyer but access by a private investigator doesn't seem to be covered in Section 3, do we have any lawyers?

The data would have been given to the police not the private investigators. I really don't get why people are so keen to think the family have somehow breached data laws.

 

[Deleted member 178385]

Here is the Acquisition and Disclosure of Communications Data Code of Practice document.

2.1. The acquisition of communications data under RIPA will be a justifiable interference with an individual’s human rights under Articles 8 and, in certain circumstances, 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights only if the conduct being authorised or required to take place is both necessary and proportionate and in accordance with law.
2.2. RIPA stipulates that conduct to be authorised or required must be necessary for one or more of the purposes set out in section 22(2) of RIPA:15
• in the interests of national security;16
• for the purpose of preventing or detecting crime17 or of preventing disorder;
• in the interests of the economic well‑being of the United Kingdom so far as those interests are also relevant to the interests of national security;18
• in the interests of public safety; 19
• for the purpose of protecting public health;20
• for the purpose of assessing or collecting any tax, duty, levy or other imposition, contribution or charge payable to a government department;
• for the purpose, in an emergency, of preventing death or injury or any damage to a person’s physical or mental health, or of mitigating any injury or damage to a person’s physical or mental health;21
• to assist investigations into alleged miscarriages of justice;22
• for the purpose of assisting in identifying any person who has died otherwise than as a result of crime or who is unable to identify himself because of a physical or mental condition, other than one resulting from crime (such as a natural disaster or an accident);23
• in relation a person who has died or is unable to identify himself, for the purpose of obtaining information about the next of kin or other connected persons of such a person or about the reason for their death or condition;24 and
• for the purpose of exercising functions relating to the regulation of financial services and markets or to financial stability.

Out of this list, the only one that could potentially apply is the 'detecting crime' one.

The document notes for that bit state:

"Detecting crime includes establishing by whom, for what purpose, by what means and generally in what circumstances any crime was committed, the gathering of evidence for use in any legal proceedings and the apprehension of the person (or persons) by whom any crime was committed. See section 81(5) of RIPA. Where an investigation relates to an allegation of criminal conduct by a member of a public authority, that public authority (or another public authority appointed to investigate the complaint) may use their powers under Chapter II to obtain communications data for the purpose of preventing or detecting the alleged or suspected crime where the investigating officer intends the matter to be subject of a prosecution within a criminal court. Should it be determined there are insufficient grounds to continue the investigation or insufficient evidence to initiate a prosecution within a criminal court, it will, with immediate effect, no longer be appropriate to obtain communications data under RIPA. "

 

[suzyjackson]

The data would have been given to the police not the private investigators. I really don't get why people are so keen to think the family have somehow breached data laws.

Ok, if the data is given to the police and then subcontracted out for analysis that's one thing but the impression being given (and I accept it may just be an impresssion) is that MIS will be working independently and getting access to information the police don't have.

They may just be bigging themsleves up and justifying their fee, I will reserve my final view until we know a bit more

 

[Deleted member 178385]

Also:

"2.6. As well as consideration of the rights of the individual under investigation, consideration must also be given to any actual or potential infringement of the privacy and other rights of individuals who are not the subject of the investigation or operation. An application for the acquisition of communications data should draw attention to any circumstances which give rise to significant collateral intrusion. "

BBM. This is why getting general phone mast data is particularly tricky, because it infringes on the privacy of other people in the area who have nothing to do with the case.

 

[RocketFuel]

MIS will be registered with the Information Commissioners Office and will be working within the law.


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[Redgoblin]

Also:

"2.6. As well as consideration of the rights of the individual under investigation, consideration must also be given to any actual or potential infringement of the privacy and other rights of individuals who are not the subject of the investigation or operation. An application for the acquisition of communications data should draw attention to any circumstances which give rise to significant collateral intrusion. "

BBM. This is why getting general phone mast data is particularly tricky, because it infringes on the privacy of other people in the area who have nothing to do with the case.

LE could possibly use the new freedoms they have under the snoopers charter.

If they can prove it might be terrorism related I'd imagine they can bypass certain areas, I'm not sure how it works in practice tho...

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[Deleted member 178385]

MIS will be registered with the Information Commissioners Office and will be working within the law.


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I agree that they will be. Which means they have to be able to tick at least one from the list I've posted above if they are obtaining the type of phone data that's been suggested.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

About the Phone data. I work with far more sensitive data on behalf of a government department. Of course, you need the appropriate level of clearance to do this, but if I get requests of data, I am allowed to give out certain identifiers unencrypted. These are identifiers you can see on your own correspondence, but you couldn't go the other way (i.e. given the identifier you couldn't look up the individual).

Obviously, phone number is not such an identifier, but IMEI may well be viewed as such. I.e. the phone companies may be able to share IMEI/Mast/Time of connection/signal strength data, which the families investigators can then analyse and pass a list of IMEIs of interest.

If that can't be done, they can anonymise the data. I.e. replace any identifiable data with an arbitrary number. The analysis can then be done, and the outcome might be that "EE phone #43 and O2 phone #172" are of interest. The police can then request the details from the phone companies.

I think this is exactly what will happen . I really don't think this family with their joint knowledge and skill set would risk any silly mistakes that could potentially not be used in a court of law. Just my humble opinion.

 

[cotswoldemmie]

About the Phone data. I work with far more sensitive data on behalf of a government department. Of course, you need the appropriate level of clearance to do this, but if I get requests of data, I am allowed to give out certain identifiers unencrypted. These are identifiers you can see on your own correspondence, but you couldn't go the other way (i.e. given the identifier you couldn't look up the individual).

Obviously, phone number is not such an identifier, but IMEI may well be viewed as such. I.e. the phone companies may be able to share IMEI/Mast/Time of connection/signal strength data, which the families investigators can then analyse and pass a list of IMEIs of interest.

If that can't be done, they can anonymise the data. I.e. replace any identifiable data with an arbitrary number. The analysis can then be done, and the outcome might be that "EE phone #43 and O2 phone #172" are of interest. The police can then request the details from the phone companies.

Exactly.
MIS are working with the police and have never said they would be accessing individuals phones & information.
The only thing IIRC, that has been said is that they will endeavour to correlate any pings between C's phone and another phone.
Matching up the pings does not necessarily give MIS any information other than "C's phone was pinging at these times and so was another phone"
They are literally matching those two outputs and then handing that information over to the police who will action it as they deem necessary.
I could also point out something as to the potential data source but I don't particularly want to draw attention to it, though I'm confident that some of us on here are aware of what I'm alluding to.

 

[Shiressleuth]

About the Phone data. I work with far more sensitive data on behalf of a government department. Of course, you need the appropriate level of clearance to do this, but if I get requests of data, I am allowed to give out certain identifiers unencrypted. These are identifiers you can see on your own correspondence, but you couldn't go the other way (i.e. given the identifier you couldn't look up the individual).

Obviously, phone number is not such an identifier, but IMEI may well be viewed as such. I.e. the phone companies may be able to share IMEI/Mast/Time of connection/signal strength data, which the families investigators can then analyse and pass a list of IMEIs of interest.

If that can't be done, they can anonymise the data. I.e. replace any identifiable data with an arbitrary number. The analysis can then be done, and the outcome might be that "EE phone #43 and O2 phone #172" are of interest. The police can then request the details from the phone companies.

Oookaaay. Very interesting. So the analysis is/can be done with anonymous data. Then police go back to source with the reduced anonymous data which is then personalized at that stage. So e.g. they could end up with four imei numbers in a specific location at the same time and bingo.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Think I'm pretty old school, but I can remember this uproar when cctv started appearing- people held the same opinions. Many years later, we are all wondering why there was gaps in cc tv, without those gaps we would already have possibly solved this and many other missing cases.

 

[Deleted member 189081]

Deleted pertains to FB discussion