UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #20

[Miss_French]

Coach might mean the bit of Brentgovel that runs in front of the Cornhill Shopping Centre.

It was when Coach said pedestrians in relation to Brentgovel I thought he meant the bit I described and the street furniture might not have been seen on a street map. That bit is 'fully' pedestrianised as opposed to driving up Looms Lane.

 

[Shiressleuth]

It was when Coach said pedestrians in relation to Brentgovel I thought he meant the bit I described and the street furniture might not have been seen on a street map. That bit is 'fully' pedestrianised as opposed to driving up Looms Lane.

I didn't know you could drive in or out up Looms? What cams are up that way? Just the CSC one?

 

[suzyjackson]

<modsnip>

Anyway, I have an interesting new thought that you might be interested in - I have shared this with someone else so don't know if he posted it already, but here goes:

What has been rattling around in my brain is that the Police have taken the 11Kg number as fact and not investigated it further until far too late - if they actually did investigate it further at all.

Det Supt Katie Elliott was bigging up her team for "their persistence" in bringing the new weight to light - well 5 or 6 months is a long time to confirm or deny a number, and the insinutation I've seen from a news source is that it was the bin company who contacted the Police with the new numbers, not the Police diligently investigating and "discovering" an error as they are trying to portray.

When the Police were adamant that the 11Kg was correct my immediate thought was that CM was in the cab of the truck - he had to be, however the "new correct weight" "shows" that he was in the bin all along.

So my devious mind has considered the following:

Imagine you killed CM and dumped him at the landfill. While the Police are "certain" that he wasn't in the bin truck, and therefore aren't going to search the landfill, you are in the clear.

When they decide they ARE going to search the landfill then you're up the creek without a paddle - when they find his body there, but he couldn't have been in the bin, then there is only 1 other possible solution.

So, isn't it strange that it was only AFTER the Police annouced the landfill search would go ahead that the new numbers came to light?

In other words - what if the 11Kg WAS correct, and rather than the Police being given the wrong number at the beginning - the false number is the one they are working with now.

That is to say, the bin DID weigh 11Kg, and the "raw data" has been subsequently altered to show a much heavier weight.

If Biffa have an audit trail built into their software then the Police will be able to see when that raw data was altered, and by who, but if they don't then the BIG mistake the Police made was not obtaining copies of it right at the beginning.

If they had original copies they would be able to see if and when the data was altered.

On top of that - imagine if CMs body is found at the landfill (which it will be) - no one can be 100% sure of the level of decomposition, but even in the worst case scenario - say he had been stabbed and there is bone damage from a blade - isn't it convenient that a knife was found in the horseshoe AFTER it had been cleared by the Police during an extensive search?

If someone had, hypothetically speaking, stabbed CM, taken his body to the landfill, and wanted to cover their tracks later - changing the recorded bin weight AND leaving a knife at the last known location for CM would lead the Police to deduce (incorrectly) that he was stabbed at the scene, and dumped in a bin.

Rather than what actually happened.

This is why I LOVE forensics, and especially DNA evidence - when they found no trace of him in the cab or the waste area of the truck = he can't have been there.

When they find his body with stab wounds and they have a knife with no DNA, and no DNA from the bin, etc - they'll conclude he was stabbed there and put in the bin - the lack of DNA or blood etc will be IGNORED>

I really do think this is a viable solution that explains EVERYTHING and solves the entire "mystery" - doubtful though that they will consider or investigate it.

One former detective has been giving his verdict in the Sun newspaper, but it's so full of holes it's laughable - one thing to consider if nothing else is how do you as an individual lift a dead weight high enough to put them in a bin, and that's after you've sneaked into and out of the horseshoe without being seen on the CCTV there or in the surrounding roads, etc.

Anyway, think that over and my "psychic prediction" is CM's body will show knife wounds.

A couple of question if I may to get your scenario clear in my head,

How does the hypothetical person get a body into the landfill?

Is it the same person who has the access and skills to change the Biffa records?

 

[DaveShu]

A couple of question if I may to get your scenario clear in my head,

How does the hypothetical person get a body into the landfill?

Is it the same person who has the access and skills to change the Biffa records?

Hypothetically CM gets at least part way to the landfill in the cab of the truck - that is why the phone follwed the movement of the bin truck, and the bin weight showed he wasn't in the bin.

He could have been moved to the back of the truck later, probably with the help of a 2nd person - but it isn't necessary for him to move there, they don't (I imagine) inspect what's in the cab of a truck at the landfill.

The weight is altered because a 2nd party (probably) altered the log in the raw data.

Remember the Police arrested a person under suspicion of perverting the course of justice - ie someone who could not possibly have been involved in CMs disappearance, unless he also was there at the time - and that's not his job, so unless he was moonlighting...

Who knows - a folie a deux is not unheard of.

 

[suzyjackson]

Hypothetically CM gets at least part way to the landfill in the cab of the truck - that is why the phone follwed the movement of the bin truck, and the bin weight showed he wasn't in the bin.

He could have been moved to the back of the truck later, probably with the help of a 2nd person - but it isn't necessary for him to move there, they don't (I imagine) inspect what's in the cab of a truck at the landfill.

The weight is altered because a 2nd party (probably) altered the log in the raw data.

Remember the Police arrested a person under suspicion of perverting the course of justice - ie someone who could not possibly have been involved in CMs disappearance, unless he also was there at the time - and that's not his job, so unless he was moonlighting...

Who knows - a folie a deux is not unheard of.

Thanks, did you see over the last couple of days that we now know that the PTCOJ arrest was for giving the providing the police with the wrong bin weight and they accepted that it was done in good faith?

Your theory may well be correct. we've had enough bluff and double bluff so far but I don't know enough about the process at the LF to form an opinion on how feasible it would be for a body to move from the cab to the truck that actually deposits stuff in the LF. Am I right in thinking that the bin lorries themselves only go so far then another vehicle puts the waste (once checked?) in the correct sector of the LF?

 

[DaveShu]

Thanks, did you see over the last couple of days that we now know that the PTCOJ arrest was for giving the providing the police with the wrong bin weight and they accepted that it was done in good faith?

Your theory may well be correct. we've had enough bluff and double bluff so far but I don't know enough about the process at the LF to form an opinion on how feasible it would be for a body to move from the cab to the truck that actually deposits stuff in the LF. Am I right in thinking that the bin lorries themselves only go so far then another vehicle puts the waste (once checked?) in the correct sector of the LF?

Yes I saw the PTCOJ was for providing the wrong bin weight, my thoughts on that is how could an entire company who know they offer different tarrifs, who know the individual customer (from the salesperson to the admin person who sends out the bills, and everyone in between) NOT have immediately thought "hang on a minute, we need to check this for X".

It beggars belief, it's suggesting really that no one there has a clue how the business runs, which is clearly nonsense.

I've found it difficult to understand the process for waste disposal, supposedly what was said at the start was that recycleables go to the incinerator plant at Barton Mills, but it was shut so it went to landfill.

But the pick up was at 4-00ish and the last phone ping was at 8-00ish - at Barton Mills - but because it was closed they took it to the landfill. Is BM closed at 8am?

The entire story - if that is correct just doesn't add up, what the Police should do is clear up exactly what is what, what supposedly happened, how that compares to what normally happens, and what actually did allegedly happen.

This is why I think CM may have been moved from the cab to the metal box - apart from the geographical seclusion and time allowing it to be done - the phone stopped transmitting.

It *might* be that a phone of that make and model and on that network can transmit from the back of a metal boxed in truck, but I doubt it, and it *might* be that the phone ran out of charge or was crushed - but it might also be because CM was moved from the cab to the metal box at that time, and at that point the signal could no longer connect to the tower.

In that case there are at least 2 people involved, since to move a body and lift it, etc, would require super human stregth from one person.

I think the Police are dawdling, looking for an innocent explanation instead of looking for a sinister, nefarious one - that's not Police bashing, it's Human Nature bashing.

Some people (i.e. individuals, not the Police as an organisation) look for the best, when we should look for the worst, but hope for the best.

I doubt a truck pulls up at the landfill, empites it's load, then another load of people load up another truck, and it dumps the load.

It would be highly inefficient.

It would make more sense to weigh the truck on the weighbridge so you know how much it's bringing in, then direct it to a certain spot to unload - but I don't KNOW I'm ASSUMING this is the most logical method.

Of course this could mean, depending on how diligent the staff are, that someone could unload on the wrong spot.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Earlier tonight I took our two paper recycling household bins side by side. One was about a 1/4 full with only paper and cardboard and the other one was empty. I asked my daughter who is 11yrs old and weighs 39kgs if she would help me carry out an experiment by climbing into the bin. She couldn't wait to get inside and after she climbed into it, I moved the other bin first and then I moved the one with my daughter in it. Needless to say, the bin with my daughter was MUCH harder to move. Corrie weighed how much, about 85kgs? The bin would have felt really heavy to move in comparison to the normal weight of it.

I hope none of your neighbours reported you to social services.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

As much as I still think it could have been an accident involving C dropping his phone in the bin and going in after it,

To drop his phone in the bin he would have had to open the lid first. Why would he do that unless he was going to get in it?

 

[suzyjackson]

Yes I saw the PTCOJ was for providing the wrong bin weight, my thoughts on that is how could an entire company who know they offer different tarrifs, who know the individual customer (from the salesperson to the admin person who sends out the bills, and everyone in between) NOT have immediately thought "hang on a minute, we need to check this for X".

It beggars belief, it's suggesting really that no one there has a clue how the business runs, which is clearly nonsense.

I've found it difficult to understand the process for waste disposal, supposedly what was said at the start was that recycleables go to the incinerator plant at Barton Mills, but it was shut so it went to landfill.

But the pick up was at 4-00ish and the last phone ping was at 8-00ish - at Barton Mills - but because it was closed they took it to the landfill. Is BM closed at 8am?

The entire story - if that is correct just doesn't add up, what the Police should do is clear up exactly what is what, what supposedly happened, how that compares to what normally happens, and what actually did allegedly happen.

This is why I think CM may have been moved from the cab to the metal box - apart from the geographical seclusion and time allowing it to be done - the phone stopped transmitting.

It *might* be that a phone of that make and model and on that network can transmit from the back of a metal boxed in truck, but I doubt it, and it *might* be that the phone ran out of charge or was crushed - but it might also be because CM was moved from the cab to the metal box at that time, and at that point the signal could no longer connect to the tower.

In that case there are at least 2 people involved, since to move a body and lift it, etc, would require super human stregth from one person.

I think the Police are dawdling, looking for an innocent explanation instead of looking for a sinister, nefarious one - that's not Police bashing, it's Human Nature bashing.

Some people (i.e. individuals, not the Police as an organisation) look for the best, when we should look for the worst, but hope for the best.

I doubt a truck pulls up at the landfill, empites it's load, then another load of people load up another truck, and it dumps the load.

It would be highly inefficient.

It would make more sense to weigh the truck on the weighbridge so you know how much it's bringing in, then direct it to a certain spot to unload - but I don't KNOW I'm ASSUMING this is the most logical method.

Of course this could mean, depending on how diligent the staff are, that someone could unload on the wrong spot.

I've questioned Biffa's competance too, IMO though it is more likely that they don't fully understand the systems than that there is a cover up involving more that one person. I'm usually of the KISS school of thought

I don't think this night was unusual in terms of the times of the bin collections, the opening hours of the waste sites or the final destination of the waste. IMOO Biffa are keeping their heads down to avoid some very difficult questions from locals and the council about what they actually do with recyclables.

In my area the local council are very hot on recycling rates, all of the public tips have information boards and we get lots of support to recycle, my suspicion is that this is casting a very unwelcome light on Suffolk's policy and the rate payers are not going to be happy if they are being hoodwinked about what happens to the waste they take the time to split into different bins if it all ends up in landfill.

I've had a very quick look and it seems you're right about the rubbish being directly tipped into the landfill (I had it in my head that the collection lorries didn't actually go into the LF site themsleves but it looks like I was wrong). In that case if the driver arrives at the LF before it opens does he just sit in his lorry and wait for it to open before tipping his load and going back to the depot?

That seems like a very inefficient system, why not just start the collection rounds later and plan to arrive at the LF around the time it opens? Why would Biffa pay people to sit aorund waiting. I must be missing something, it doesn't make any sense to me


JMO

 

[Miss_French]

Coach might mean the bit of Brentgovel that runs in front of the Cornhill Shopping Centre.

It was when Coach said pedestrians in relation to Brentgovel I thought he meant the bit I described and the street furniture might not have been seen on a street map. That bit is 'fully' pedestrianised as opposed to driving up Looms Lane.

 

[DaveShu]

I've questioned Biffa's competance too, IMO though it is more likely that they don't fully understand the systems than that there is a cover up involving more that one person. I'm usually of the KISS school of thought

I don't think this night was unusual in terms of the times of the bin collections, the opening hours of the waste sites or the final destination of the waste. IMOO Biffa are keeping their heads down to avoid some very difficult questions from locals and the council about what they actually do with recyclables.

In my area the local council are very hot on recycling rates, all of the public tips have information boards and we get lots of support to recycle, my suspicion is that this is casting a very unwelcome light on Suffolk's policy and the rate payers are not going to be happy if they are being hoodwinked about what happens to the waste they take the time to split into different bins if it all ends up in landfill.

I've had a very quick look and it seems you're right about the rubbish being directly tipped into the landfill (I had it in my head that the collection lorries didn't actually go into the LF site themsleves but it looks like I was wrong). In that case if the driver arrives at the LF before it opens does he just sit in his lorry and wait for it to open before tipping his load and going back to the depot?

That seems like a very inefficient system, why not just start the collection rounds later and plan to arrive at the LF around the time it opens? Why would Biffa pay people to sit aorund waiting. I must be missing something, it doesn't make any sense to me


JMO

I always base my thinking around the KISS or occams razor principles, but there's so much here - from incompetence, to sloppy thinking, etc, its not so clear what the truth really is.

Although we all love a good KISS every now and again, sometimes things are very sloppy kiss wise and things are far more complex than you'd have thought at the beginning.

I'm not saying you're wrong, indeed you may well be right since the simple is always the most preferable least resistive route, but clearly it can't always be that way - and maybe this case is one of those where there the credulous have been proven to be wrong by the incredulous.

The worrying thing for me - even if my new idea is total poppy *advertiser censored*, is that unless the Police go and actually investigate it all quickly - then we may never know the truth at all - and it may already be too late for that due to the poor management of the investigation.

If the fulcrum of the case rests upon digital data - then it, the actual digital fingerprint so to speak may no longer exist.

Then it's all just pissing in the wind.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't think this night was unusual in terms of the times of the bin collections, the opening hours of the waste sites or the final destination of the waste. IMOO Biffa are keeping their heads down to avoid some very difficult questions from locals and the council about what they actually do with recyclables. ....

.... my suspicion is that this is casting a very unwelcome light on Suffolk's policy and the rate payers are not going to be happy if they are being hoodwinked about what happens to the waste they take the time to split into different bins if it all ends up in landfill.

I think that Suzy is right here and that this is a factor in the general confusion surrounding the case.

 

[suzyjackson]

I always base my thinking around the KISS or occams razor principles, but there's so much here - from incompetence, to sloppy thinking, etc, its not so clear what the truth really is.

Although we all love a good KISS every now and again, sometimes things are very sloppy kiss wise and things are far more complex than you'd have thought at the beginning.

I'm not saying you're wrong, indeed you may well be right since the simple is always the most preferable least resistive route, but clearly it can't always be that way - and maybe this case is one of those where there the credulous have been proven to be wrong by the incredulous.

The worrying thing for me - even if my new idea is total poppy *advertiser censored*, is that unless the Police go and actually investigate it all quickly - then we may never know the truth at all - and it may already be too late for that due to the poor management of the investigation.

If the fulcrum of the case rests upon digital data - then it, the actual digital fingerprint so to speak may no longer exist.

Then it's all just pissing in the wind.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I remember that you've communciated with NU previously about the bin weight, if you haven't already it might be worth while also highlighting her to the possibility of the data being changed.

You are right to say that this case is a one off and given the twists and turns so far better safe than sorry if it's not too late for SP to secure as many copies of the data as they can

 

[Coach]

I hope none of your neighbours reported you to social services.

We don't have any neighbours!! Don't worry, our daughter fully consented to the experiment. The bin was obviously clean and dry.

 

[Coach]

It was when Coach said pedestrians in relation to Brentgovel I thought he meant the bit I described and the street furniture might not have been seen on a street map. That bit is 'fully' pedestrianised as opposed to driving up Looms Lane.

Been out all day so just catching up with all the posts now. I meant that it was possible to drive up Brentgovel (past McDonalds) to the HS. It looks possible on google maps street view but after reading the posts I'm assuming there are things blocking the street now which are not showing on street view? That would mean the only access for the lorry would have been by SB, is that right?

 

[DaveShu]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I remember that you've communciated with NU previously about the bin weight, if you haven't already it might be worth while also highlighting her to the possibility of the data being changed.

You are right to say that this case is a one off and given the twists and turns so far better safe than sorry if it's not too late for SP to secure as many copies of the data as they can

I have indeed spoken to NU when right at the beginning I couldn't believe the bin weight was correct for various technical and potentially nefarious factors.

The only other possibe alternative was that he was in the cab - but occams razor and all that...

Since the Police, Biffa, etc were insistent that the weight was correct, but I didn't believe it was, I stuck to my guns, but when the latest 6 months later "ooh, actually we got it wrong,the bin DID weigh a lot more" revelation came out from the Police - I have revised my thinking.

I always thought it more likely he was in the cab due to the Faraday effect, but the subsequent admission, crumble, and then the attempt to take credit out of it somehow from the Police has made me really think they really have no clue and are really being led down the garden path.

The knife appearing in the horseshoe (after the search) could be purely melodramatic misdirection, which could further indicate that someone is trying to cover their tracks.

Alternatively he could simply have climbed into a bin for a nap.

The only way there can be any sure fire answer is if either a) the perpetrator admits their crime; b) a new eye witness appears, c) Biffa have an audit trail built into their software and can prove the data was manipulated after the event, d) The Police took copies of the raw data at the beginning and can prove the data was altered subsequently.

Otherwise....

We have to accept what the Police say when they find his body at the landfill.

Even if it does show evidence of stab wounds, and what they will make of that.

 

[DaveShu]

We don't have any neighbours!! Don't worry, our daughter fully consented to the experiment. The bin was obviously clean and dry.

Thay're picked up mechanically, not by a person - so your daughter suffered in vain I am afraid to say.

 

[Cherwell]

The thing is, we don't know how the weight information is captured, the implication from family statements from posters who have some knowledge of the industry and the way I have undertsood them is that the weight recording isn't a manual process, no one writes it down, it is an electronic process and if we are to believe UT the recording equipment was found to be working properly.

What now seems to be tha case is that as the weight wasn't needed for this round (pick up charged by occurance not be weight) it wasn't produced in any kind of easily understandable form and when the police asked Biffa what the weight was an employee (HS?) looked it up but because it's hard to understand the printouts or computer info (I don't think we know what form the output takes) he read it wrongly.

I don't think anyone deliberately gave the wrong weightor misrecorded it, it's one of the many complexities of this case that has led to poor C not yet being found.

ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON !!! This was never a case of anyone deliberately recording the data incorrectly. It was a case of the interpretation of the data being wrong. My only surprise would be that a figure of 110kg would stand out in a column (going back over 6 months) of 10-15kgs ... but again, as this info was not required for costing, it's format/position may have been considered unimportant and therefore 'lost in the noise' of all the other data.. sadly

This sounds more like it to me. I don't believe there was any manipulation, alteration or falsification.
Sometimes <modsnip> just happens.

 

[Coach]

Thay're picked up mechanically, not by a person - so your daughter suffered in vain I am afraid to say.

Hi Dave, I didn't pick it up - I simply wanted to see how much more difficult it would be to move it when it was heavier.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

When you "reply with quote" make sure you don't accidentally delete the final ] or it doesn't wrap it properly. Easily done!!

It only works with [/QUOTE] at the end and

at the start