Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[Al Ka]

Loopdloop, I see your dissatisfaction is aimed at police rather than documentary makers, who edited and directed the show. Like in real life or in movies we will never know all the answers.

Police tasks were to determine cause of death, rule in/out foul play, identify deceased and lastly inform the next of kin. Done, done, done, done. Whatever happened abroad is different matter, they did not have to look into it at all and yet they did. I actually am grateful that they revealed to public as much as they did as in some other cases here, we are lucky to get even confirmation that person has been identified.

I too, of course have many questions. What worries me though that some people in Pakistan clearly benefited from all what happened, which of course leads to his London/Pakistani friend too. He was the one to bring him to Pakistan first time and few times after that and very possibly introduce him to people there. Did he benefited from David buying house there? He probably was translator in those deals, and knew those people too. Did he get commission or what is quite likely, did David buy it under this friend's name or family as he would trust him more then anyone he just met there???

Was David's London/Pakistani friend (of so many years) aware of his funeral? Its clear he did not attend as Jeremy would meet him.
His no response to Jeremy's texts is quite strange, unless of course he has £100-200 K reasons not to be in touch...

PS: I would not mind to see documentary number 2 - Discovery of David's life in Pakistan

 

[OracleOne]

I wasn't going to comment further but have continued to follow the thread and see that Jeremy has said it is helping him and not upsetting him. So having read Jeremy's thoughts and the additional info he's kindly shared, I have concluded that:

1. I think David was keen to return to the UK because he was a free spirit who was unhappy about having his movements in Pakistan curtailed due to the visa restrictions.

2. He could have transfered £100,000 to the registered owner of his flat rather than carry that amount of money over to the UK... assuming he didn't have a bank account.

3. The plane ticket was paid for with that person's credit card, using part of the £100,000.

4. David arrived in the UK and was no doubt keen to do some travelling/sightseeing as he'd felt stifled in Lahore.

5. He may have had fond memories of Saddleworth moor from his days at Leeds university. He may have visited there at the time ,but due to his poor health with Hypothyroidism, was unable to climb to the top. So during his first day of freedom in the UK, he might have felt compelled to try again, with the aid of a therapeutic dose of strychnine which he may have been using recreationally for many years in Pakistan. But due to his heart condition, or possibly the wind blowing some into his face (strychnine can be absorbed by inhalation), he inadvertently took more than intended, or certainly more than his heart could cope with.

6. I don't believe he had any intention of taking his life and had every intention of returning to London with his return ticket and his accomplishment of scaling the peak.

7. I think there is the possibility he may have had a large sum of money in his suitcase and that this has gone missing along with the suitcase. Make of that what you will. But no doubt the police are looking into the disappearance of his belongings.

8. Perhaps he only wore glasses for reading as he was wearing them on the plane, so didn't wear them that day. His mobile might only work on the Pakistan network and as he didn't need to contact anyone he didn't change networks and left it in his suitcase.

9. Maybe the land was purchased on his behalf? The detective only said that the person who used the money to buy the land, didn't say it was, and just said the money had been spent on purchasing land. This will also no doubt be investigated further.

10. I think the documentary was purely made as a piece of entertainment and probably re enacted for television. I doubt it was filmed at the time of the investigation to identify David, but maybe Jeremy could comment on that? It made an interesting programme, detailing the most unusual and puzzling case of the detective's career. Nothing more, nothing less... except maybe hoping that a member of public might tip them off to the whereabouts of the suitcase. But the main purpose of the programme was to tell the story of a police team's struggle to identify the body on the moor.

Overseas investigations will undoubtedly continue, as they will in London, if the police suspect any possibility of any criminal activity regarding money and belongings.

 

[OracleOne]

"I think there is the possibility he may have had a large sum of money in his suitcase and that this has gone missing along with the suitcase. Make of that what you will. But no doubt the police are looking into the disappearance of his belongings."

Re: the suitcase... I'm not accusing anyone of stealing it. But until it turns up, anything is possible. He may have left it somewhere or with someone for safekeeping. I believe the train stations in London don't have lockers, but luggage can be kept in a secure left luggage office for a fee, depending how long it is left. However, I am assuming the police have checked this out. I doubt very much he disposed of it himself now I think he didn't intend to kill himself. But I could be wrong.

 

[pinklilies]

Fab post OracleOne, my thoughts are roughly the same.

At the inquest it was noted the male detective was satisfied there was no criminal intent.

I also don't feel Dovestones is a great mystery anymore. While studying at Leeds uni he could have visited at some stage with friends or a girlfriend or for reasons related to the course he was doing. It's only 35 miles down the road.

His suitcase at the hotel would probably have been stored in left luggage for a while. I've no idea how long they hold on to them but it was a full year before David was identified. In the meantime maybe the hotel tried to contact him in some way but to no avail. I'm sure the police have some answers to these queries.

As for the £100k, perhaps he was happy to part with it in return for being able to return to the UK. He worked here for many years so I'm sure once he had settled, he would have been able to claim his UK state pension so would have had an income.

As has been said, the police found who he was, gave him back his name, returned him to his family and attended his funeral.

There will always be unanswered questions in relation to anyone's life and David being a seemingly private man, would probably be more than perplexed at our interest in him.

I just hope he really enjoyed his first and sadly last day of his life back home.

 

[OracleOne]

Thanks Pinklilies, that's a good point about the hotel putting his suitcase in lost luggage... assuming he left it in his room. As you rightly point out, it was a whole year before he was identified, something I had overlooked.

Just read that most unclaimed lost luggage from airports ends up being sold at auction, so maybe hotels operate along the same lines. If that's the case (no pun intended) then that is probably what happened to it.

 

[ShakerSince92]

Really fascinating questions coming up here, and also very interesting contributions from David's brother. Again, thank you Jeremy for your willingness to engage with us.

I'm really wondering now about why the Channel Four documentary was even made at all. If all those scenes are recreations (the phone calls, the meetings, the walking down the hallway), which I assume they are as it seems unlikely that cameras were following the investigation from the start, I find it amazing that the police agreed to participate and "act" out everything for the cameras. What was the point, in terms of benefit for the police, if indeed they know much more than they are letting on?

And what is the benefit to the public in promoting this as some grand mystery, if in fact the police know many of the answers already but are keeping them to themselves?

Have they concluded their investigation? If so, why is it left to Jeremy to try and find out answers by texting the mystery man for example who met David at the airport?

Why does Jeremy say that the credit card used to purchase the airline ticket needs looking into, when it is clearly written on the whiteboard in one of the scenes that they need to follow this up? Surely that is a very straightforward thing to sort out. Get the credit card number from the travel agent. Look up the bank details. Find out what activity was happening on that account. Sorted. But apparently, no, nothing has been done there.

I really don't understand what the police were aiming to achieve by agreeing to do this. Surely they are busy with plenty on their plates. So why go through with all these recreations? If they were genuinely trying to engage the public in bringing out more information, then why have they left so many threads hanging?

I almost find myself thinking that there is some attempt to mislead the public with this documentary, not just in withholding key pieces of information, but in creating a mystery when surely many aspects of this mystery ought to be easily cleared up with a few additional phone calls, to the travel agent, to the hotel, to the mystery man, to Heathrow. What am I missing here?

Are any of the police team reading this? Perhaps they might like to comment? I doubt it, but let's see.

2 points I would like to make on reflection of your post.

1) I think the police wanted to "market" this as a success story. For average Joe it's a mystery solved. The police found out the identity of Mr Lytton. I agree if you delve a little deeper the documentry just raises more questions.

2) And this sounds really horrible and I don't really want to say it but think it needs saying now. How do we know for sure that Jeremy is Jeremy? I mean for all we know he could be anyone. Apologies Jeremy if you are who you say you are but there are a lot of people on the internet that would get off on impersonating you just for the attention.

 

[OracleOne]

"2) And this sounds really horrible and I don't really want to say it but think it needs saying now. How do we know for sure that Jeremy is Jeremy? I mean for all we know he could be anyone. Apologies Jeremy if you are who you say you are but there are a lot of people on the internet that would get off on impersonating you just for the attention."

It's quite conceivable that "Jeremy" could be a troll. I have questioned this and chosen to believe he is genuinely David's brother. I suppose it doesn't make much difference whether he is or he isn't.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I hadn't even questioned David's Brother being David's brother. Still don't.
Does this make me a crap sleuth?!

:thinking:

 

[Bluetooth]

..........with the aid of a therapeutic dose of strychnine which he may have been using recreationally for many years in Pakistan.

Given David's aversion to aspirin, it is unlikely he was using strychnine recreationally. As he was living in a slum in Lahore, i reckon the strychnine was already in use at the property to ward off rats. For some reason David kept back a sample for use later.

 

[Bluetooth]

.........He was the one to bring him to Pakistan first time and few times after that and very possibly introduce him to people there. Did he benefited from David buying house there? He probably was translator in those deals, and knew those people too. Did he get commission or what is quite likely, did David buy it under this friend's name or family as he would trust him more then anyone he just met there???....

From the documentary, if i remember correctly - the Pakistani friend returned to England shortly thereafter, whilst David would stay on as an illegal for 10 years. So perhaps there is too much focus on this Pakistani friend?

I sense David was happy with the simple living in Pakistan but eventually forced to return because of visa problems.

 

[OracleOne]

Given David's aversion to aspirin, it is unlikely he was using strychnine recreationally. As he was living in a slum in Lahore, i reckon the strychnine was already in use at the property to ward off rats. For some reason David kept back a sample for use later.

I have an aversion to aspirin, but take many other medications. No, seriously I see your point. But I can't see anyone choosing such a horrific way to go. Besides which, he was lying flat, straight and looking peaceful, hardly indicative of a lethal dose of strychnine. More likely to be a heart attack. The pathologist was reported as saying that due to his heart condition they would have thought as much if they hadn't run toxicology tests.

 

[OracleOne]

"The lethal dose for human adults ranges between 30 and 120 mg, although death of an adult has been reported after an ingestion of 16 mg. The lethal dose for children is about 15 mg"

"Therapeutically, doses of 1–3 mg are used, causing an increase in spinal reflex. At this dose, the tension of the striated muscle is raised, but there is practically no effect on respiratory and circulation"

http://flipper.diff.org/app/items/info/2905

The pathologist reported a level of 2.1mg in his blood.

 

[pinklilies]

Given David's aversion to aspirin, it is unlikely he was using strychnine recreationally. As he was living in a slum in Lahore, i reckon the strychnine was already in use at the property to ward off rats. For some reason David kept back a sample for use later.

For what use, to end his life?

 

[Redgoblin]

"The lethal dose for human adults ranges between 30 and 120 mg, although death of an adult has been reported after an ingestion of 16 mg. The lethal dose for children is about 15 mg"

"Therapeutically, doses of 1–3 mg are used, causing an increase in spinal reflex. At this dose, the tension of the striated muscle is raised, but there is practically no effect on respiratory and circulation"

http://flipper.diff.org/app/items/info/2905

The pathologist reported a level of 2.1mg in his blood.

Why would they say he died from it, if it wasn't a lethal dose?

According to that website a 2.2mg dose is enough to kill a female rat, but not enough to kill a male rat (that could be somewhat bigger) and certainly not enough to kill a human being... Unless something else was in David's blood to cause a reaction.

I wonder if Thyroxine has a synergistic effect on Strychnine... It would have to be a big effect I suppose.


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[Redgoblin]

Why would they say he died from it, if it wasn't a lethal dose?

According to that website a 2.2mg dose is enough to kill a female rat, but not enough to kill a male rat (that could be somewhat bigger) and certainly not enough to kill a human being... Unless something else was in David's blood to cause a reaction.

I wonder if Thyroxine has a synergistic effect on Strychnine... It would have to be a big effect I suppose.


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Quoting my own post... Reading up on it, dose and the amount of the drug in his blood are two different things, ignore my last post.

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[loopdloop]

5. He may have had fond memories of Saddleworth moor from his days at Leeds university. He may have visited there at the time ,but due to his poor health with Hypothyroidism, was unable to climb to the top. So during his first day of freedom in the UK, he might have felt compelled to try again, .

Interesting point, but I'm not sure. Saddleworth is not exactly local to Leeds by any means. But in any case, any visitor to Dovestone's Reservoir has a perfectly nice walk available on the path which leads around the reservoir. It is very popular. I've done it myself with my family many times. Anyone wanting to experience the area can simply walk around the reservoir, and enjoy the landscape that way. Heading up that track to the "top of the mountain" (a very curious phrase, more below) is for a serious hard-core walker wanting something extra. It is not a stroll up there, but a heck of a climb up a steep hill. Besides, David was not dressed for the occasion, and he was told clearly by the publican from Clarence Hotel that there was no way he could make it to the top and back before nightfall in those conditions.

It really is hard to see any good reason at all why he would want to go up that track.

As for the "top of the mountain" comment, it is really very odd. The thing about the moors is that there really is no "top of the mountain". OK, sure, there are points that are higher than other points, but it is basically a flat plateau up there. No one locally would ever talk about the top of the mountain. No one even looking at the moors from the surrounding area would ever pick out a "peak" and say, "oh, that's the top of the mountain, I want to go there". It would be a completely useless phrase also to describe a meeting place. If I said to someone in Greenfields, "I'll meet you at the top of the mountain", it would be meaningless and convey no information. Everywhere up there is essentially the "top of the mountain". So it doesn't make sense this phrase either as local knowledge, or as an agreed meeting place, or as an intended destination for someone who has been there or seen the moors. There is no "scaling the peak" to consider as any kind of goal which makes sense.

Finally, this scenario does not make sense of his delay at Picadilly. If it was his intention to revisit a favourite scenic place from his earlier days, he would have set off from Picadilly immediately on arrival to make the most of the limited daylight.

 

[OracleOne]

I agree, using the term "top of the mountain" is unusual, so might be indicative of him not being familiar with the area, but it doesn't rule it out. Moorland is only flat once you're up it. I've seen the height of one particular moorland described as just short of qualifying as a mountain.

As for the route he took. I once scaled a popular high peak that absolutely knackered me. It was a very steep incline and I decided to do it on a whim in ordinary clothing while walking my dog in the area. I was so proud of myself, only to be told later I should have taken the gentle sloping way that gradually winds to the top. But not having done it before, I took the direct and most obvious route.

Perhaps he didn't travel to Manchester with the intention of walking up Saddleworth. Maybe, like me, it was done on a whim. He might have seen something about it that gave him the idea. He went into WH Smiths, it's possible he could have seen a book about it.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Interesting point, but I'm not sure. Saddleworth is not exactly local to Leeds by any means.

True. I was at Leeds myself. The University campus is on the north side of the city centre and the student accommodation stretches from there right out to the northern edge of the city. Students who were into climbing, hiking, potholing and suchlike used to head north for recreation to Ilkley Moor and the Dales or occasionally south into Derbyshire. They didn't generally head over to the Manchester side of the Pennines unless they were heading to the Lakes or North Wales.

That said, the fact that David reportedly asked for the way to the "top of the mountain" suggests he was not a walker or climber.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

True. I was at Leeds myself. The University campus is on the north side of the city centre and the student accommodation stretches from there right out to the northern edge of the city. Students who were into climbing, hiking, potholing and suchlike used to head north for recreation to Ilkley Moor and the Dales or occasionally south into Derbyshire. They didn't generally head over to the Manchester side of the Pennines unless they were heading to the Lakes or North Wales.

That said, the fact that David reportedly asked for the way to the "top of the mountain" suggests he was not a walker or climber.

So was I (still nearby!) and we would head up to Ilkley / Brimham rather than crossing the dark side haha! Mind you, few students would have had cars in the 60's (there weren't many that did in the 90's, although they all seem to today) so I doubt he went often, if at all.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

So was I (still nearby!) and we would head up to Ilkley / Brimham rather than crossing the dark side haha! Mind you, few students would have had cars in the 60's (there weren't many that did in the 90's, although they all seem to today) so I doubt he went often, if at all.

Or Kilnsey Crag.

As I recall, the various outdoor clubs tended to hire a minibus for a weekend to get club members out of the conurbation. I think you needed to be over 21 to hire a minibus, but most post-grads were old enough to hire and drive one.