Identified! UK - David Lytton, South Pennines, 'Neil Dovestone', 65-75, Dec'15

[CoverMeCagney]

Is there any way this man might have known Brady & Hindley? Or known where Keith is? Could he have had a guilt trip for never telling anyone what he knew and decided to die up there so Keith isn't alone, as a kind of penance?

Just a thought. I guess to me Saddleworth Moor is just where those children died. But then there's the plane crash to consider, or it could have been an old favourite walking spot, or where he proposed, or somewhere he was sentimentally attached to. All sorts of reasons to be up there and I'm probably biased as my gut instinct is a Moors Murders link.

 

[Ellmau]

Oh, and strychnine seems to be widely available in Pakistan - they use it to kill stray dogs ;( - but I don't know if it could be brought into the country easily.

 

[Elainera]

Oh, and strychnine seems to be widely available in Pakistan - they use it to kill stray dogs ;( - but I don't know if it could be brought into the country easily.

Yes, here in India too. That's why I came to rescue a poisoned stray dog (described in my earlier post).

I was just thinking, the dog I rescued was screaming and crying so much, surely this man would not have been dying quietly up there. But I guess there was nobody around who could have heard him?

 

[Bethan]

Oh, and strychnine seems to be widely available in Pakistan - they use it to kill stray dogs ;( - but I don't know if it could be brought into the country easily.

I wonder if his pill bottle has been tested for traces of strychnine?
Or perhaps there's no point, as it is known he ingested the poison, and everything points to suicide.


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[MelmothTheLost]

The police appear to be taking seriously the idea that this man may may have visited Pakistan as a health tourist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ad-Moors-visited-Pakistan-health-tourist.html

It's certainly not impossible. Brits do often go abroad to particular regions for various types of treatment. For example Hungary has become a destination for major dental treatment since the dentistry is of a very high quality and is a lot cheaper than having it done in the UK, and those seeking male to female trans-sex surgery tend to head to Thailand. India has recently become a destination for various types of surgery, so there is nothing inherently implausible in this chap having gone to Pakistan for surgery.

If he was a health tourist, I'm guessing he went abroad privately rather than sit on an NHS waiting list for a while which suggests he had enough money to cover the costs. And if the treatment was paid for by someone else, why hasn't that person come forward to identify him? Probably because he or she has died in the 10 years or so since the surgery.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Thinking further about this. If the man was a UK citizen he would need a visa to visit Pakistan on a UK passport, and a visa application would have required him to state the reason for travel. Also, given how sensitive travel to this region has been since 2001 (Pakistan having provided a gateway to Afghanistan and terrorist training camps) it's likely the UK government would have taken an interest in anyone from the UK travelling to Pakistan.

On the other hand, if he held dual nationality and travelled on a Pakistani passport there would be no visa evidence.

Also, given this man's age at the time of his likely travel (early 50s or older) he was unlikely to fall into a age group whose travel to the region would have been thought worthy of attention.

In reality I doubt he was of Pakistani origin if only because close-knit Pakistani families would have recognised and identified a family member by now.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Several new (to me) bits of information from an article in today's Daily Telegraph:

1. The strychnine was in the levothyroxine bottle. (Never borrow anyone else's medicine, boys and girls); and

2. The police are considering the idea that he might have been a Pashtun, ie from the NW of Pakistan or Afghanistan. Fair complexions and blue eyes are quite common amongst that ethnic group. (That still doesn't explain why an elderly person of such ethnic and cultural background would not have had at least one family member to claim him by now.)

3. They appear to have narrowed his identity down to around 1,750 people using the metal plate in his leg.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12198074/The-mystery-corpse-of-Saddleworth-Moor.html

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Just been re-reading all about the Moors Murders, found a map showing where 3 of the children's bodies were found, plus the area where they searched for Keith.



The air crash was just to the south of Dovestones reservoir at the bottom of the picture and I believe our mystery man was found in the same area, though I can't find a reliable enough account to say for definite.

And having said how bleak it is up there and how it freaks me out, I am actually quite tempted to go and have a look at these places. Might do one day...

 

[carbuff]

There's no reason to think any of his family members have seen the story, wherever he came from. Has the story even appeared in Pakistani papers?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

There's no reason to think any of his family members have seen the story, wherever he came from. Has the story even appeared in Pakistani papers?

When the media started to report on this story, it was stated that the man spoke with a northern accent. Assuming this is true he could only have developed such an accent by living in northern England for a considerable period of time. If we consider his estimated age (65-75) it's not very likely that he was born in the UK, but it is likely that he arrived in one of two ways:

1. He immigrated as a young man, most likely to work in the textile industry in the north (wool in Yorkshire, cotton in Lancashire) in the 1960s and subsequently brought family members from "home", or
2. He was one of the family members brought over by by one of the first wave immigrants in 1 above.

Either way, he must have been in the UK long enough to develop a noticeably northern accent, so somebody must know who he is. One phenomenon we do see is that first wave immigrants from Pakistan often send money back to family for the express purpose of buying a house and land for themselves to retire to in due course. There have been a number of instances of British-resident Pakistanis returning to Pakistan only to find that the house and land they've been saving for have been bought and registered in a brother's or cousin's name and thus they have been defrauded. A few returnees have been murdered in such disputes. It's possible, therefore, that our chap might be someone who had retired back to Pakistan but still returns to the UK from time to time to visit family here. But I find it very hard to envisage a situation in which someone of Pakistani origin with a noticeable northern accent would not have relatives resident in the UK to identify him.

At this stage I tend to think that he is not of Pakistani origin but rather an ethnic Brit who had some connection or other with Pakistan which led to him having surgery there.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

From what I can work out, there is a road which runs along the south edge of the reserveroir which track which runs effectively south eastwards up the hill towards Chew Reservoir and he was found somewhere along that track.

Incidentally there's a very useful website called Where's the Path which allows you to view various OS maps on one side of the screen with the corresponding satellite images on the other. It makes understanding a landscape much easier.

http://wtp2.appspot.com/wheresthepath.htm

 

[CoverMeCagney]

When the media started to report on this story, it was stated that the man spoke with a northern accent. Assuming this is true he could only have developed such an accent by living in northern England for a considerable period of time. If we consider his estimated age (65-75) it's not very likely that he was born in the UK, but it is likely that he arrived in one of two ways:
.

Not necessarily true. Most people could walk into a bar, say a few words, and pass off as being from another area or even another country if they wished to, any accent to an untrained ear could be believable. Still, in this case it's quite likely he WAS originally a Northerner, there has to be some connection to Saddleworth, it's not exactly easy to get to on public transport nor is it somewhere you'd definitely have heard of unless you were familiar with the area or the notorious events up there.

 

[dotr]

Could the man have been an air traffic controller associated with and tormented by the plane crash?

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Could the man have been an air traffic controller associated with and tormented by the plane crash?

That's unlikely but not impossible. The crash happened in 1949, and I would guess anyone old enough to be an ATC at that time would have been at least 25, probably older, so would be into his 90s by now. Also, the crash does not seem to have been anything to do with ATC but simple pilot error in poor visibility so while it's possible an ATC might have been haunted by the crash there does not seem to be any reason for a feeling of guilt or neeing to make amends.

I also wondered if he could have been a civilian who assisted in the early stages of the rescue effort, but again he was probably too young for that. Even if he had been in his mid teens then he would have been in his 80s now.

One idea which does not appear to have been explored so far (publicly at least) is a connection with the reservoir itself. Dovestone was the last of a series of reservoirs built in the Chew valley, dating from the late 1960s. I wonder if his home had been flooded to build the reservoir (older OS maps hint at scattered cottages or farmhouses within the boundary of what is now the reservoir), or even if he was an architect or engineer involved in its design or construction. His estimated age range is about right for someone fresh out of university or newly qualified in either profession.

ETA that it's also possible that he could have been a young civilian volunteer in the original searches for the victims of Brady and Hindley.

 

[gaia227]

This is kinda out there.....
The first thing I thought upon reading that he died from Strychnine was perhaps a connection to Russia. They're infamous for poisoning political dissidents, former/rogue KGB spies. He was in London. London is known as a 'spy' city due to its size and locale. He could have been meeting someone in Saddleworth it's remote, etc.
Like I said, pretty unlikely but thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[dotr]

Intriguing update ( bbm) to article.
Also, if indeed this was suicide, perhaps it was due to "no one appears to have missed him"?
After all, a regular suicide would not garner attention like this one, where a well-dressed man with lots of cash, train tickets, dying of a horrible poison at a notorious spot, will make a splash in the media, imo.
Could that be exactly what the man hoped for?
rbbm.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...he-heart-of-a-modern-mystery-saddleworth-moor

What is really tragic about this case is in the three months since this man’s death no one appears to have missed him. Anyone with information should phone police on 0161 856 8972 or the independent charity Crimestoppers, anonymously, on 0800 555 111.

Dr Kathryn Harkup is a chemist and science communicator. Her book, A Is for Arsenic: The Poisons of Agatha Christie, is published by Bloomsbury.

• This article was amended on 17 March 2016. An earlier version contained a line in the final paragraph implying that the death in the Saddleworth moor case was suicide. The police investigation is ongoing and no conclusions have yet been reached.

 

[Pisces Cloud]

I've heard that the guy might have had something to do with Oldham Boxing Club. Back when it was run by a guy called Jim Gallagher.

 

[dotr]

I've heard that the guy might have had something to do with Oldham Boxing Club. Back when it was run by a guy called Jim Gallagher.

Interesting, might explain the uid's possibly broken nose and ability/ desire?, to withstand intense pain and be in the public eye. imo.

 

[Elainera]

I've heard that the guy might have had something to do with Oldham Boxing Club. Back when it was run by a guy called Jim Gallagher.

Where did you hear that?

 

[Pisces Cloud]

I know someone who is a member of the club. Apparently the present manager Eric got a visit or phone call off the police at the weekend. He's also been asked to appear in a documentary that's being made. I wonder if it could be Jim Gallagher's son Terry. There's a bit more information about the club below.

http://www.oldhamboxing.co.uk/history/