GUILTY UK - Elizabeth, 49, & Katie Edwards, 13, slain, Spalding, Lincs, 15 April 2016
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flourish
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Wait so she's saying she has less culpability because she didn't have the cajones to be more involved? Not because she didn't want to, she just didn't have the guts? Am I off base here? WTH? She sounds to me like she's disappointed that she didn't participate more fully? What a horrid person.
Alyce
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Was wondering about that. Possibly after they are sentenced then the media will be able to say who they are
Alyce
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To me she is equally guilty. Her statement about how she caught hold of Elizabeth Edwards hand and then dropped it once she realised it was not her boyfriends hand...and how she sat on the floor in the room listening as Elizabeth struggled for ten minutes, before dying ......and her only thought during this time was , keep calm this will be over soon.
Not a single thought for her victim.
Legally Bland
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This is from a couple of days ago. I hadn't realised they planned to kill themselves. Sorry if already posted.
Some evidence from a child psychiatrist.
Some evidence from a child psychiatrist.
flourish
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Hmm hybristophilia? I don't know if I spelled that correctly. Reminds me of Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka.
Alyce
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Hybristophilia - had to look that one up.
I wonder - and it has not been made clear, because there seems to be minimal reporting on this trial, for obvious reasons - but does this mean that they just wanted to commit murder and any person or persons would do, or did they specifically want to kill these two people ?
I wonder - and it has not been made clear, because there seems to be minimal reporting on this trial, for obvious reasons - but does this mean that they just wanted to commit murder and any person or persons would do, or did they specifically want to kill these two people ?
Alyce
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Today's updates Pros closing speech.
A schoolgirl accused of knifing a mother and her 13-year-old daughter to death with her teenage sweetheart was the driving force behind the plot.
Elizabeth and Katie lay dead for 36 hours in blood-splattered rooms as the teenage boy and girl allegedly watched vampire films on a mattress downstairs.
In his closing speech at Nottingham Crown Court today, prosecutor Peter Joyce QC told the jury the case was more chilling than any of their 'worst nightmares'.
He said he believed the defendant was the driving force behind the plot to kill.
Mr Joyce said today 'brutality and contempt oozes from every pore of this girl' and she held the lives of her victims as cheaply as she would 'a hamster or a goldfish'.
He said the boy repeatedly 'offered her a way out' but she was 'determined' to kill.
She told the police: 'We made sure that we were definitely OK with it and he (the boy) continuously asked me if I still wanted to go through with it and I said yes'.
It would never ever of happened if she had said no.
He was offering not to do it.
She could have stopped him.
(She showed) Sheer brutality and utter contempt for her victims.
Afterwards she said she felt 'a bit sad'. A bit sad - as if it was a goldfish or a hamster.
She's a bright kid, not a fool. She knew exactly what she was doing.
'There was no genuine suicide plan or they would have done it. Actions speak louder than words.
'We are dealing with a girl who doctors agree wasn't suffering from any mental illness. She wasn't depressed or schizophrenic.
'You can't ignore the sheer callousness and coldness of these killings or her attitude now.
She has not shown a hint of remorse.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rt-driver-cold-brutal-plot.html#ixzz4NLDt2nuo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
A schoolgirl accused of knifing a mother and her 13-year-old daughter to death with her teenage sweetheart was the driving force behind the plot.
Elizabeth and Katie lay dead for 36 hours in blood-splattered rooms as the teenage boy and girl allegedly watched vampire films on a mattress downstairs.
In his closing speech at Nottingham Crown Court today, prosecutor Peter Joyce QC told the jury the case was more chilling than any of their 'worst nightmares'.
He said he believed the defendant was the driving force behind the plot to kill.
Mr Joyce said today 'brutality and contempt oozes from every pore of this girl' and she held the lives of her victims as cheaply as she would 'a hamster or a goldfish'.
He said the boy repeatedly 'offered her a way out' but she was 'determined' to kill.
She told the police: 'We made sure that we were definitely OK with it and he (the boy) continuously asked me if I still wanted to go through with it and I said yes'.
It would never ever of happened if she had said no.
He was offering not to do it.
She could have stopped him.
(She showed) Sheer brutality and utter contempt for her victims.
Afterwards she said she felt 'a bit sad'. A bit sad - as if it was a goldfish or a hamster.
She's a bright kid, not a fool. She knew exactly what she was doing.
'There was no genuine suicide plan or they would have done it. Actions speak louder than words.
'We are dealing with a girl who doctors agree wasn't suffering from any mental illness. She wasn't depressed or schizophrenic.
'You can't ignore the sheer callousness and coldness of these killings or her attitude now.
She has not shown a hint of remorse.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rt-driver-cold-brutal-plot.html#ixzz4NLDt2nuo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
CoverMeCagney
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So is she a psychopath or a sociopath? Either or it was clearly a targeted plan, probably based on nothing more than usual parent/teen struggles.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/whats-d...psychopath-not-much-one-might-kill-you-270694
http://www.medicaldaily.com/whats-d...psychopath-not-much-one-might-kill-you-270694
Alyce
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Defence now giving their closing
Closing for the defence, barrister Andrew Stubbs QC reminded the jury of the evidence of Dr Chakrabati who diagnosed the girl as having an adjustment disorder at the time of the killings.
He also urged the jury to consider the girl's mental state before the killings, pointing to an entry in her diary which read "Help me. Death is the only way. Madness is in me."
He told the jury to undertake "a calm analysis of the evidence", adding that "on the balance of probabilities you can conclude that justice in this case means that however responsible she is for the killings she is in fact not guilty of murder".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37680917
Just to add, that although the Defence is, naturally, quoting from Dr Chakrabarti, there was also another psychiatrist who gave evidence of the mental state and gave the complete opposite view.
Closing for the defence, barrister Andrew Stubbs QC reminded the jury of the evidence of Dr Chakrabati who diagnosed the girl as having an adjustment disorder at the time of the killings.
He also urged the jury to consider the girl's mental state before the killings, pointing to an entry in her diary which read "Help me. Death is the only way. Madness is in me."
He told the jury to undertake "a calm analysis of the evidence", adding that "on the balance of probabilities you can conclude that justice in this case means that however responsible she is for the killings she is in fact not guilty of murder".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37680917
Just to add, that although the Defence is, naturally, quoting from Dr Chakrabarti, there was also another psychiatrist who gave evidence of the mental state and gave the complete opposite view.
Alyce
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Here is the alternative view that I mentioned in the post above
Consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr Philip Joseph told a jury the bond between the couple had been the catalyst for the killings.
He told jurors: "If they had not had this intense, toxic relationship this would never have happened.
Dr Joseph described the girl as being "inappropriately upbeat" and "cheerful" during the two-and-a-half hour interview.
When he asked her how she and the boy had felt after killing the two women she said: "We felt laid back about what we had done and neither of us felt that bad about it."
He said she had described the couple's plans to commit suicide after the killings as "half-hearted" and that "for some reason" it did not happen.
Asked about the diagnosis of Dr Indranil Chakrabarti who had earlier told the court that the girl had been suffering from a mental disorder, Dr Joseph said he did not believe the diagnosis was correct.
He went on to say that even if she had been suffering from such a disorder it would not have impaired her ability to understand her conduct or make rational decisions.
"She was not suffering from an adjustment disorder nor was she suffering from any other psychiatric condition.
"[Somebody with such a disorder] might lash out but it would be an outburst, an uncontrolled act, but I've never heard of a case of a planned killing as a result of an adjustment disorder."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37631891
Consultant forensic psychiatrist Dr Philip Joseph told a jury the bond between the couple had been the catalyst for the killings.
He told jurors: "If they had not had this intense, toxic relationship this would never have happened.
Dr Joseph described the girl as being "inappropriately upbeat" and "cheerful" during the two-and-a-half hour interview.
When he asked her how she and the boy had felt after killing the two women she said: "We felt laid back about what we had done and neither of us felt that bad about it."
He said she had described the couple's plans to commit suicide after the killings as "half-hearted" and that "for some reason" it did not happen.
Asked about the diagnosis of Dr Indranil Chakrabarti who had earlier told the court that the girl had been suffering from a mental disorder, Dr Joseph said he did not believe the diagnosis was correct.
He went on to say that even if she had been suffering from such a disorder it would not have impaired her ability to understand her conduct or make rational decisions.
"She was not suffering from an adjustment disorder nor was she suffering from any other psychiatric condition.
"[Somebody with such a disorder] might lash out but it would be an outburst, an uncontrolled act, but I've never heard of a case of a planned killing as a result of an adjustment disorder."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37631891
Alyce
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Just having a read up on that Bathsheba and this is what I have found....
For those aged under 18, the sentence is called detention during Her Majesty’s pleasure.
The starting point’ for a minimum term in prison, based on the severity of case before the court has to be 12 years for anyone aged 17 or under.
Then they can get more years for aggravating factors - or less years for mitigating ( dont think so in this case )
Presumably the boy will get some kind of reduction based on his guilty plea.
Recent case ( Angela Wrightson - see link ) the two girls, aged 13 and 14 at the time of the murder, were given sentences of 15 years. Interestingly, both were found guilty of murder even though the 14 year old's defence sounds similar to the current girl in the Edwards case. However, the girl in the Wrightson case did show remorse, something which the girl in the Edwards case has not done.
Wrightson Case
Jamie Hill QC, defending the older girl, said she "lacked intelligence" about how people could die and only now understood the consequences of her actions, for which she expressed sorrow and remorse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35989955
For those aged under 18, the sentence is called detention during Her Majesty’s pleasure.
The starting point’ for a minimum term in prison, based on the severity of case before the court has to be 12 years for anyone aged 17 or under.
Then they can get more years for aggravating factors - or less years for mitigating ( dont think so in this case )
Presumably the boy will get some kind of reduction based on his guilty plea.
Recent case ( Angela Wrightson - see link ) the two girls, aged 13 and 14 at the time of the murder, were given sentences of 15 years. Interestingly, both were found guilty of murder even though the 14 year old's defence sounds similar to the current girl in the Edwards case. However, the girl in the Wrightson case did show remorse, something which the girl in the Edwards case has not done.
Wrightson Case
Jamie Hill QC, defending the older girl, said she "lacked intelligence" about how people could die and only now understood the consequences of her actions, for which she expressed sorrow and remorse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35989955
Alyce
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A few more sentences from the same link above
Sixteen-year-old Will Cornick was given a life sentence in 2014 after he admitted murdering Leeds teacher Ann Maguire. The judge said he had shown a "chilling lack of remorse" and ordered him to serve at least 20 years, saying he might never be released
Fifteen-year-old Daniel Bartlam, who murdered his mother with a hammer and set her body on fire, was detained for a minimum of 16 years in 2012. Judge Julian Flaux described the killing as "grotesque" and "senseless" and said it seemed like the teenager wanted to "get away with the perfect murder"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35989955
Sixteen-year-old Will Cornick was given a life sentence in 2014 after he admitted murdering Leeds teacher Ann Maguire. The judge said he had shown a "chilling lack of remorse" and ordered him to serve at least 20 years, saying he might never be released
Fifteen-year-old Daniel Bartlam, who murdered his mother with a hammer and set her body on fire, was detained for a minimum of 16 years in 2012. Judge Julian Flaux described the killing as "grotesque" and "senseless" and said it seemed like the teenager wanted to "get away with the perfect murder"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35989955
Prosecutor says the girl
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...enage-sweetheart-driver-cold-brutal-plot.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...enage-sweetheart-driver-cold-brutal-plot.html
Alyce
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I hadnt realised, but Jury went out yesterday - must have been late afternoon
The jury in the murder trial of a mother and daughter from Spalding continues to consider its verdict, after being sent out yesterday.
http://www.itv.com/news/central/201...-verdict-in-mother-and-daughter-murder-trial/
The jury in the murder trial of a mother and daughter from Spalding continues to consider its verdict, after being sent out yesterday.
http://www.itv.com/news/central/201...-verdict-in-mother-and-daughter-murder-trial/
Alyce
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Excellent news
A 15-year-old girl has been found guilty of plotting with her boyfriend to murder a dinner lady and her 13-year-old daughter.
The court has heard the young couple, who cannot be named for legal reasons, started their 'unhealthy and toxic relationship' in May last year.
The plan to kill Mrs Edwards and her daughter had started as 'a joke' that 'escalated', because the girl had 'a grudge' against the churchgoing dinner lady.
The girl told police: 'Afterwards I felt fine. He seemed fine.
He said, "I have done lesser things and I felt more bad for doing them than this". It didn't upset him at all.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Elizabeth-Edwards-daughter.html#ixzz4NR8j5bMo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
A 15-year-old girl has been found guilty of plotting with her boyfriend to murder a dinner lady and her 13-year-old daughter.
The court has heard the young couple, who cannot be named for legal reasons, started their 'unhealthy and toxic relationship' in May last year.
The plan to kill Mrs Edwards and her daughter had started as 'a joke' that 'escalated', because the girl had 'a grudge' against the churchgoing dinner lady.
The girl told police: 'Afterwards I felt fine. He seemed fine.
He said, "I have done lesser things and I felt more bad for doing them than this". It didn't upset him at all.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Elizabeth-Edwards-daughter.html#ixzz4NR8j5bMo
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Alyce
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They planned to take their own lives but the girl claim she had already attempted suicide and the thought of doing it again made her 'feel sick'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Elizabeth-Edwards-daughter.html#ixzz4NR9T6oNv
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Elizabeth-Edwards-daughter.html#ixzz4NR9T6oNv
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Alyce
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So from the above news
It appears that the press are still not allowed to reveal their names
It is also now clear that this was a targeted attack and that the girl did want Elizabeth and Katie to be killed , rather than the girl just wanted a random person/s to be killed
Amazing that the thought of suicide made her feel sick, but she had no problems in listening to, and being in close proximity to, these two people as they died a horrible death
It appears that the press are still not allowed to reveal their names
It is also now clear that this was a targeted attack and that the girl did want Elizabeth and Katie to be killed , rather than the girl just wanted a random person/s to be killed
Amazing that the thought of suicide made her feel sick, but she had no problems in listening to, and being in close proximity to, these two people as they died a horrible death
CoverMeCagney
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Silly really that they can't be named, when a) we know their names and relation to the deceased, and b) they are cold blooded killers. In my mind, at 15, they are definitely old enough to know they did wrong and also old enough to face the consequences.