GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Gigi-G]

Ohh dear Lord noooo. Not again!
Shooter opens fire at cinema in Germany (Live Updates) https://www.rt.com/news/347968-shooter-germany-cinema-live/


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[Gigi-G]

Ohh dear Lord noooo. Not again!
Shooter opens fire at cinema in Germany (Live Updates) https://www.rt.com/news/347968-shooter-germany-cinema-live/


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At least 5o wounded.

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[Renee110]

[FONT="]Dame Justice Hogg stunned experts and ignored pleas from [URL="http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/social-services"]social services[/URL] when she handed little Ellie Butler back to her parents - Ben Butler and Jennie Gray.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Asked if she felt responsible for Ellie’s death, Justice Hogg told the Mirror: “It’s not personal,” before driving away.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/judge-who-returned-ellie-butler-8250014[/FONT]

So that's what she tells herself so she can sleep at night.

 

[Gigi-G]

So that's what she tells herself so she can sleep at night.

Whst does she mean by 'its not personal '?

I do hope that this woman has this poor lil Angels tragedy on her mind always! I know I couldn't sleep knowing that i could be attributing to a defenceless lil girls death. By overbearingly manipulating Ellies case report in the rebuttal of BB'S exhonouration.
Adding these clauses that BB and his GIRLFRIEND( NOT WIFE). Are to have a clean slate from all the Child Agencies concerned. And a Court Written Notice to state this.. To be available if any agency tries involvement forthwith.

She KNEW that the ahem shyte was gonna hit that fan. Why else retire 6 months early?
And tie that court order up with so many legalities. I am soooo hoping that her Judgement was unjust!
Ggrrrr

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[Gigi-G]

At least 5o wounded.

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Looks like he took hostages. And baricaded himself with them. He since has been shot. But reports now coming in saying he had a Blank firing weapon. So no injuries. Hmm sketchy still news coming out.

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[Renee110]

Grampy Neal has lost 4 people in his life to date now.
Ellie
Ellie's sibling
his loving wife Linda
JG
I just feel so much for him. I just hope he can find some peace thru this now ♡

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Will he not be able to have contact with little sis? His granddaughter?

 

[Gigi-G]

Will he not be able to have contact with little sis? His granddaughter?

Even while Ellie was with Grampy n nanny. Her lil sis was in another foster home. As Ellie was brought up with nan n gramp. She never got to know her sister really until they all got back together.
I dont think there is enough of a bond between them. Even when the GP'S were allowed to see the children after they were in JGS care it was only a few times at that.

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[michelle230]

So that's what she tells herself so she can sleep at night.

She must have had a real self satisfying feeling "....Aaah well done me. I have power over this family. I think I will graciously bestow my kindness from my great height upon this lessor and lower family. I will make their day (and they will just love me). The ultimate feel good factor.
I believe that she was planning her retirement but there are suggestions that she may have brought it forward so she was retired before the murder trial began.

 

[michelle230]

By the way did you see the police mug shot pictures of BB and JG? The one of JG in particular was just how she looked as the judge was sentencing them and she was crying and sobbing loudly. Very different to the haughty, arrogant presentation throughout the trial. I was happy to see that.
I couldn`t believe, when the jury gave their verdict and the judge told her that in an hour, when he sentenced them, she should expect immediate custodial. She defiantly shrugged her shoulders and made a face as if to say "Who cares!".
I believe that no case review can happen at the moment because his defence team are preparing to launch an appeal?
Good luck with that!!!!!!!!!!
Michelle

 

[michelle230]

Sorry for third post - on a roll here lol.
Yesterday I read in one of the papers (can`t remember which) that BB had shown violent tendencies from a young age. Apparently when he was around 6/7 he bit all the way up a girl`s arm - she was a pupil in the same class - and kicked and punched her. Shortly after he inflicted such injury on a family dog that it had to have it`s leg amputated. Anyone else read that?
I`m thinking a lot about the dynamics between them. MOO but I feel as long as she has just one person to leech to, she is actually much stronger than him. The way she spoke and manipulated the constant probing questions by the prosecution, skillfully and without flinching, and deflected the often black/white evidence was quite an experience to hear. BB on the other hand is quite simply a violent bully who when punctured, reveals an empty, hollow hole - like a poisonous Easter egg.

 

[Tortoise]

Sorry for third post - on a roll here lol.
Yesterday I read in one of the papers (can`t remember which) that BB had shown violent tendencies from a young age. Apparently when he was around 6/7 he bit all the way up a girl`s arm - she was a pupil in the same class - and kicked and punched her. Shortly after he inflicted such injury on a family dog that it had to have it`s leg amputated. Anyone else read that?
I`m thinking a lot about the dynamics between them. MOO but I feel as long as she has just one person to leech to, she is actually much stronger than him. The way she spoke and manipulated the constant probing questions by the prosecution, skillfully and without flinching, and deflected the often black/white evidence was quite an experience to hear. BB on the other hand is quite simply a violent bully who when punctured, reveals an empty, hollow hole - like a poisonous Easter egg.

I didn't see that article but I did see this one, where Sutton Guardian interviewed his aunt, (BB's mother's brother's wife)

[FONT=&quot]Mrs Davies, Butler's aunt by marriage, told the Sutton Guardian: "He was born evil....

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]She added: “I don’t think he has ever had any love for anyone but himself. He is so arrogant as well. He will have thought that he’s cleverer than the barristers and the judge and probably thought he would get away with it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He is evil without redemption. He has no conscience and is nothing more than a liar.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"You can see it in his face, and it changes when he lies. But if you first met him you’d think what a poor sod.

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...Ben_Butler_s_own_family_member_describes_him/[/FONT]

 

[michelle230]

Thanks Tortoise. I hadn`t seen that article.
Can`t remember where I read the above but we all know that violent, psychopaths in the making usually begin with torturing animals.

 

[Gigi-G]

She must have had a real self satisfying feeling "....Aaah well done me. I have power over this family. I think I will graciously bestow my kindness from my great height upon this lessor and lower family. I will make their day (and they will just love me). The ultimate feel good factor.
I believe that she was planning her retirement but there are suggestions that she may have brought it forward so she was retired before the murder trial began.

Hinky meter going ting tingaling.
Course she did. She got wind of the trial and the shyte it might throw. And graciously shut the door on joe public. Becuz dont forget. Shes aristocracy n way above all that.. good grief! The woman mire or less signed a death warrant ffs!

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[Gigi-G]

Yes their mug shots are a picture! Ha!
Can they apply for appeal this early? Wew!
I see Becky Watts' murderers appealed again today. N got a big fat NO!
whatever planet do these people live on geez!

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[Gigi-G]

Sorry for third post - on a roll here lol.
Yesterday I read in one of the papers (can`t remember which) that BB had shown violent tendencies from a young age. Apparently when he was around 6/7 he bit all the way up a girl`s arm - she was a pupil in the same class - and kicked and punched her. Shortly after he inflicted such injury on a family dog that it had to have it`s leg amputated. Anyone else read that?
I`m thinking a lot about the dynamics between them. MOO but I feel as long as she has just one person to leech to, she is actually much stronger than him. The way she spoke and manipulated the constant probing questions by the prosecution, skillfully and without flinching, and deflected the often black/white evidence was quite an experience to hear. BB on the other hand is quite simply a violent bully who when punctured, reveals an empty, hollow hole - like a poisonous Easter egg.

Omg i love this post ha! You cotton Tortoise legally and a few others had me in stitches late last night.. ty i needed some entertainment.
Oh myy no i didnt read that about the biting. Ill have to check that out n see if i can find it. Its not easy or fast just on a samsung fone.

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[michelle230]

"The woman mire or less signed a death warrant ffs!"
Although of course it won`t bring Ellie back, at least we know that her retirement which probably took place in a blaze of celebration of her years of service, will now have an almighty large, dark blot cast over it which cannot be erased. This case may well be the case that forces change in legislation. All because of the super ego entitlement she awarded herself. That shame may well be her lasting legacy.
On another note, I am trying to work out what personality disorders these two have. Bearing in mind that these can and usually exist co-morbidly, I am convinced that JG fits at least Borderline PD and Histrionic PD. BB - I`m having difficulty with - definitely Antisocial PS. I`m really not so sure he is a fully blown psychopath as he does feel pain, if only for himself. Would a true psychopath break down and cry like he did? I would expect a true psychopath to smirk and smile and not care about the sentence at all. Narcissistic PD? The one thing he said that made me wonder if he fits this, is when he said that he actually goes out to instigate a fight so he can indulge in the response to his provocation.
Yet both are empty souls - take away her object to be co-dependant with, and take away from him a target to control/release his violence and your finger would go right through their empty centre.

 

[Gigi-G]

"The woman mire or less signed a death warrant ffs!"
Although of course it won`t bring Ellie back, at least we know that her retirement which probably took place in a blaze of celebration of her years of service, will now have an almighty large, dark blot cast over it which cannot be erased. This case may well be the case that forces change in legislation. All because of the super ego entitlement she awarded herself. That shame may well be her lasting legacy.
On another note, I am trying to work out what personality disorders these two have. Bearing in mind that these can and usually exist co-morbidly, I am convinced that JG fits at least Borderline PD and Histrionic PD. BB - I`m having difficulty with - definitely Antisocial PS. I`m really not so sure he is a fully blown psychopath as he does feel pain, if only for himself. Would a true psychopath break down and cry like he did? I would expect a true psychopath to smirk and smile and not care about the sentence at all. Narcissistic PD? The one thing he said that made me wonder if he fits this, is when he said that he actually goes out to instigate a fight so he can indulge in the response to his provocation.
Yet both are empty souls - take away her object to be co-dependant with, and take away from him a target to control/release his violence and your finger would go right through their empty centre.

Im sure that theres a whole plethora of 'labels' we can place on them both.
Altho he is far more toxic than she. Cuz he can be volatile over anything that rubs him up the wrong way.
She however. Can be the polite unassuming person you'd not bat an eye lid at. But as Sally said in her posts. She'd leech on to someone. And she'd become obsessed.
I cant think of the word im wanting to associate with her. Grrr. Meds fuzz my head.
Together they feed off each other.
But i genuinely feel that he wasnt interested in a relationship. It was a friends with benefits for him. Somewhere to crashout. Someone to cook n clean for him.
Similar scenario to her ex. He ended up moving from the area to get away from her constant clinginess.
Nit dissimilar to Stockholm Syndrome. Whereas (in BBS case) she'd love BB whatever he done to her. Regardless of anything. As weve seen.
Bb is defo psych even tho he does mitigate after an event. Most DV abusers do. And if hes picked up a fight outside a bar or pub. Its cuz that person offended him or crossed his very short boundaries. So therefore he felt he was vindicating his rights. So in his eyes he was in the right.
A recipe for disaster. Both PD both obsessive.

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[cottonweaver]

Sorry for third post - on a roll here lol.
Yesterday I read in one of the papers (can`t remember which) that BB had shown violent tendencies from a young age. Apparently when he was around 6/7 he bit all the way up a girl`s arm - she was a pupil in the same class - and kicked and punched her. Shortly after he inflicted such injury on a family dog that it had to have it`s leg amputated. Anyone else read that?
I`m thinking a lot about the dynamics between them. MOO but I feel as long as she has just one person to leech to, she is actually much stronger than him. The way she spoke and manipulated the constant probing questions by the prosecution, skillfully and without flinching, and deflected the often black/white evidence was quite an experience to hear. BB on the other hand is quite simply a violent bully who when punctured, reveals an empty, hollow hole - like a poisonous Easter egg.

Oh my goodness. I didn't read any of this.
On thread 1, in earliest days, I was searching & searching for previous "form" on him Michelle.
I assumed anything he had done as a minor was on a no-name, under 16 restriction?
But I was still perplexed that nothing came out in the years twixt age 16 & his Ellie assault later.
( Did so many searches using date ranges and local papers- nothing. Found the benefits fraud for JG. ) Anyway my final conclusion was that he had paid for one of those web scrubs that crims can have done now since the laws changed and that he sorted that before his 2012 media blitz.

Even Max Clifford might have assisted him!

 

[cottonweaver]

It's funny Michelle, if you look at thread 1 you can read some of the posts and links we put up, trying to work out which PD she has. Maybe some went into thread 2 also.
we had zero info from the court about any psych reports but a strong impression that she suffered from a PD. ( Sometimes the least info you have makes it more fascinating. )


It would take me ages to re-find the links again but there was also a really good comparison chart of the traits shared in Cluster B personality disorders and stuff related to co morbidity.

For BB there were some interesting links for distinguishing between sociopathy and psychopathy etc.

 

[cottonweaver]

Tortoise , thanks for this link on the aunt.
I know we can't probably refer specifically/details to it - but looking like that rumour re "conflict "with his younger brother was true then.