GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[cottonweaver]

Interesting extra from that neighbour re "cokehead" Implication is that this was habitual.
If anyone has ever met one before ( serious not recreational user) you'll know how dangerous that drug is.

 

[flutterby]

Have caught up.

Poor poor Neal. What a shambles.

Pleased about the verdicts but why is JG's child cruelty sentence much shorter than BB's?

Also, who is Sally? Have I missed something or have some posts been deleted?

 

[cottonweaver]

Just watched the police video - she doesn't speak in the way I expected.

Expected her to be quite hoity- toity , from the court feeback & the photos.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...TY-murdering-six-year-old-daughter-Ellie.html

 

[cottonweaver]

Have caught up.

Poor poor Neal. What a shambles.

Pleased about the verdicts but why is JG's child cruelty sentence much shorter than BB's?

Also, who is Sally? Have I missed something or have some posts been deleted?

Yes I just went to go check, I am not sure why that post has disappeared as the poster was recounting her own experience with one of the Defendents who is now charged. Anyone else involved had a pseudonym.

Not sure what happened there Flutterby.

Glad u got ur application in, it brings back memories for me, what are you hoping to specialise in. ( I was lucky I got mine funded. )

 

[flutterby]

Yes I just went to go check, I am not sure why that post has disappeared as the poster was recounting her own experience with one of the Defendents who is now charged. Anyone else involved had a pseudonym.

Not sure what happened there Flutterby.

Glad u got ur application in, it brings back memories for me, what are you hoping to specialise in. ( I was lucky I got mine funded. )

Thank you, I went back and checked multiple time as I skim read and sometimes miss important posts. Glad it wasn't me

Hoping to do my PhD on education in small states, possibly focusing on the Maldives (where I used to teach and did my MSc thesis work) and possibly on languages/bilingualism/the creeping status of English (again, MSc research). But to be honest, it really depends on the funding!

 

[Nellie Nelson]

The Guardian's interview with Neal Gray, at his home. Lots of previously unseen footage of Ellie. So sad that she was taken from the loving care of her grandparents and returned to those foul creatures.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/video/2016/jun/21/ellie-butler-grandfather-murder-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[Supernovae]

I am wondering if BB's dad was there supporting him at trial, as I note from the Guardian article that BB WAS in touch with his dad after all.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/ben-butler-violent-posed-doting-family-man

Text messages between Butler and Gray sent in the months before Ellie’s murder gave an insight to jurors into their toxic, abusive lives. In one exchange, Butler refers to Ellie’s younger sibling as an “absolute ****”.

Texting Gray about an incident when the child wet themselves, he said: “****ing angry with [redacted]. Did it in front of my dad and weed too. Not happy at all.

“I want u to start being alot toughter. [redacted] been an abs ****..I want to knw y [redacted] pissrd in front of dad and sat there sulking whole ****ing time. No mre i **** u not”

Gray replies: “I think is terrible so I am going to get tough.”

It also seems as if we got this wrong, this text was about YD, not Ellie.

It could have been his Step-Father:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36516384

He had held a series of menial jobs and spent long periods unemployed. His own family history was dysfunctional, his father had left home before he was born, and his mother and stepfather had a volatile marriage.

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you, I went back and checked multiple time as I skim read and sometimes miss important posts. Glad it wasn't me

Hoping to do my PhD on education in small states, possibly focusing on the Maldives (where I used to teach and did my MSc thesis work) and possibly on languages/bilingualism/the creeping status of English (again, MSc research). But to be honest, it really depends on the funding!

sent you a pm ,F

 

[cottonweaver]

It could have been his Step-Father:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36516384

Ah. That's what I meant. As in, it wasn't Mr Neal, which had been the previous assumption on the threads - we were working with very little info at the outset - there was an assumption the wetting was in front of E's grandpa.

So was wondering of he had family support on sentencing day. Doubtless Michelle might know when she comes back. And , BB's family had a reln with BB & his young family and the implications of that.
( T told us some of his fam have appeared at one point in court, but today is the most imp day of the whole trial for fam support, for a Defendent IMO)

 

[mbmc]

The Guardian's interview with Neal Gray, at his home. Lots of previously unseen footage of Ellie. So sad that she was taken from the loving care of her grandparents and returned to those foul creatures.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ler-grandfather-murder-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

The video with Neal, is just so so absolutely heartbreaking, such dignity and what a safe and loving home Ellie had. I cannot ever imagine his pain, what he and his wife had to step back from and endure is unbelievable. I am feeling so utterly utterly sad.

 

[cottonweaver]

The Guardian's interview with Neal Gray, at his home. Lots of previously unseen footage of Ellie. So sad that she was taken from the loving care of her grandparents and returned to those foul creatures.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/video/2016/jun/21/ellie-butler-grandfather-murder-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

This is the best release today

Heart - breaking and makes you angry too.

Furthermore, Tortoise and anyone else who held that view re premed murder , what Neal says at 5.00 ish in the vid
23 refused visits. Suddenly, the day before he gets the call from JG that he can see Ellie.

 

[Tortoise]

I am wondering if BB's dad was there supporting him at trial, as I note from the Guardian article that BB WAS in touch with his dad after all.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/ben-butler-violent-posed-doting-family-man

Text messages between Butler and Gray sent in the months before Ellie’s murder gave an insight to jurors into their toxic, abusive lives. In one exchange, Butler refers to Ellie’s younger sibling as an “absolute ****”.

Texting Gray about an incident when the child wet themselves, he said: “****ing angry with [redacted]. Did it in front of my dad and weed too. Not happy at all.

“I want u to start being alot toughter. [redacted] been an abs ****..I want to knw y [redacted] pissrd in front of dad and sat there sulking whole ****ing time. No mre i **** u not”

Gray replies: “I think is terrible so I am going to get tough.”

It also seems as if we got this wrong, this text was about YD, not Ellie.

BIB, yes cotton, that text was about YD, but there is another one saying she was copying Ellie when she wet herself. And JG's internet search was about Ellie (6 yr old) urinating to be bad.

 

[cottonweaver]

This horrific account by BB's ex is worth reading for it's implications re Ellie, Hoggs's 2010 decision and the DV classic "markers". It describes his level of violence in a pub and the fear of other customers as he is beating HH. That just says it all IMO, no-one felt confident to even intervene. Just shocking.

Ben Butler's ex-girlfriend feared he would kill her during one of his violent rages when his face became contorted with 'pure evil'.
Hannah Hillman, 32, told police the killer's eyes became 'small and black' and he would almost foam at the mouth before meting out one of his vicious beatings and giving her a 'good hiding'.
Ms Hilman said Butler once beat her with a metal pole and sent terrified drinkers running from a pub as he repeatedly punched her in the face.

After the savage assaults Butler would go into a 'babyfied state', rocking back and forth, sobbing: 'I'm sorry, this isn't me.'
When they split, he was so furious that he kicked and punched her in public in broad daylight, she said.
'His eyes would turn smaller and black. His whole persona changed and then he would hit me every answer I gave,' she said.
'I think if he could of I think he actually would have killed me. He used to lose control so quickly I don't think he could help where he hit me.'

'Every time he asked me the question and when I gave him an answer his eyes would almost turn black and small and beady ...
'Then he would hit me every answer I would give and that's the first time he gave me my first black eye.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ix-year-old-daughter-Ellie.html#ixzz4CDzR7eh6
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Tortoise]

This is the best release today

Heart - breaking and makes you angry too.

Furthermore, Tortoise and anyone else who held that view re premed murder , what Neal says at 5.00 ish in the vid
23 refused visits. Suddenly, the day before he gets the call from JG that he can see Ellie.

And wearing face paint on the two occasions he saw her, to hide bruises. Yes, this was a calculated meeting with grandparents. 29 minutes and JG said they had to go, every time Ellie spoke JG was on tenterhooks.

I can't understand why Sally's post was removed. Did it contravene WS terms?

 

[Nellie Nelson]

There is now an article alongside the video I posted previously [the one with the interview with Ellie's grandfather, Neal Gray]. More information coming out [and more to come, I expect] re Butler's verbal aggression and threatening manner with Mr Gray

Gray and his wife had a deep and well-founded mistrust of Butler. On 23 June 2008 Butler wrote him a threatening letter stating: “you **** with me you ****ing ****… I will get you and find you and find out where you and your family all live.”

More at the link https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/ellie-butler-grandad-devastation-complete-neal-gray

 

[squish]

The Guardian's interview with Neal Gray, at his home. Lots of previously unseen footage of Ellie. So sad that she was taken from the loving care of her grandparents and returned to those foul creatures.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/video/2016/jun/21/ellie-butler-grandfather-murder-video?CMP=share_btn_tw

Ellie's hair looks so thick and bouncy in the old videos of her. She was so happy, healthy and innocent.

The grandad said that the last time he saw her the day before she was murdered, every time Ellie tried to say something JG would look at her and Ellie would look frightened.

 

[looroll]

Poor sweet darling little Ellie, bless her soul. Heartbreaking x

 

[Supernovae]

The SCR documents are now online:

http://www.suttonlscb.org.uk/seriouscasereviews.php

 

[Tortoise]

There is now an article alongside the video I posted previously [the one with the interview with Ellie's grandfather, Neal Gray]. More information coming out [and more to come, I expect] re Butler's verbal aggression and threatening manner with Mr Gray



More at the link https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/21/ellie-butler-grandad-devastation-complete-neal-gray

I read that and couldn't work out why BB didn't know where they lived. Wonder if they moved house specifically when they fostered Ellie. BB had access visits twice a year in a contact centre, but what about JG? Did she not know where her family lived? Strange.

 

[squish]

Also the grandad said that Services for Children (independent social workers appointed for BB and JG by the high court judge) constantly criticised the grandparents, complaining about Ellie doing after school activities saying it was bad for her, and constantly trying to demoralise the grandparents.