GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Lyra500]

I didn't keep up with the trial, but followed what was going on via the news. I haven't commented on this thread yet, but I have just got to say that when a senior judge in the family court can make the decision that she did (virtually condemning Ellie to a certain death) then what the hell else is going on in the family court that we don't know about? This is very scary stuff. There is virtually not a single human being on this planet who would have thought it safe to return Ellie to Butler, and yet Hoggs did exactly that, ignoring advice from the police, Sutton council and Ellie's grandparents. A senior judge. People like her are deciding people's fate? While I know she is not the one who killed Ellie, if she hadn't made the inexplicable decision to send her back to an unsafe home, Ellie would not have been murdered by Butler.

If there is actual justice in this life, then the judge should be accountable for the part she played in allowing this to happen. Ellie's welfare was not considered at all by this judge. She seems to have gone out of her way to make absolutely sure that Ellie was sent back to Butler. It's beyond incredulous. As for SFC, are they going to feature in the case review? Will they be accountable? Poor little Ellie. What a terrifying way to die. And it was avoidable. I've watched the interview with Neal Gray. What a lovely lovely man. He and his wife obviously doted on Ellie. How cruel everything turned out for them, and with assistance from the judge.

Hi Soozie

What I cannot understand is how that judge could possibly have dismissed all of the warning signs from all of the different agencies. Reminds me of Masipa.

Have you seen the quote from the vicious letter BB sent to Ellie's grandparents? This was sent whilst they had custody, so must have been available to show to the court during the Justice Hogg hearing. How could that be ignored? How? If Hogg saw that letter and still gave Ellie back to her parents then her actions go beyond dereliction of duty into frank criminal negligence in my view.

Someone suggested a petition and I do wonder whether one of those 100,000 signature petitions forcing parliament to debate the call for a public enquiry should be started (if it hasn't already).

 

[Gigi-G]

oh my, this stinks



Media lawyer argued it should be released cause -


it's a fudge then?

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016...uses-to-publish-ben-butler-judgment-from-2014

Its BB'S defence team kicking up dust. Trying to keep the wolf at bay. Its down to the sitting appeal Judges at the hearing who decide yay or nay if BB can launch an appeal i believe?
Please Jog or someone quote me if im wrong?
And as he had such a damning sentence and unanimous verdict......well i think the whole country will be up in arms if he did. He'd never get to walk the streets again... he would for sure have witness protection. And why should we the public pay for his appeal. And continue paying. He is as guilty as hell as she is. He thought he could bully tic tac the legal services into playing his game.
Each and everytime he done something said something.. you read it too in Judge Wilkies case review. He is exactly that and more. A vicious conniving animal of a human.
He makes ME angry. As i am now... how DARE BB ask for a retrial!
Suck it up loser! 😠

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[Gigi-G]

Good grief! I seriously need a cold chardonnay now! Bottle not a glass!

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[looroll]

That interview clip with the Granddad on The Guardian Website-i'm actually in tears. She was so happy and so loved when she was with them

 

[Tortoise]

this had passed me by completely

I didn' t even know there was a

in the family court back then.

This is what I was going on about, that she found BB had hit Ellie with or swung her against a table leg causing the table leg to break. I can't work it out because a broken table leg wasn't mentioned at trial, to my knowledge.

I'm surprised no crime scene photos have come out yet - usually the media get hold of pictures as soon as verdicts are in. JG told her neighbour that Ellie had fallen off her bed, Peart told the court that she may have jumped off the bed but then the defence experts were only asked to consider whether she could have jumped from her small stool. If we had pictures we could work out whether the bed was near the open wardrobe doors, because I spotted some bedroom pics in that YT video that has now been shut down, and it seemed as if there was open space near the wardrobe. I'm not doubting the verdict in the slightest - it would just be interesting to see what photographic evidence the jury had to work with.

Point of interest for me is that the stool had specially designed legs so that it wouldn't tip over, so it makes the parents' staging even more obvious to me.

 

[Tortoise]

I read it as She (Hogg) said that the previous conviction that put BB in Jail. It would conflict with that. So it's enlightening us WHY there wasn't a full written review. At that time.
I don't think they've any grounds for appeal?

Tortoise? Supernovae? Jog? Legally Bland?

Any insight?

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This isn't to do with the baby injury gigi. In 2014 there was a HIgh Court hearing/judgement in front of Mrs Justice King, to determine the facts of Ellie's death - because of her sibling's care order/proceedings. She determined that BB had on the balance of probabilities been responsible for killing Ellie. Only one paragraph of her judgement has been released to the media, saying that he used the table leg to kill her.

Now the media want access to the full judgement but Pauffley said today that it won't be released because BB said he will appeal his murder conviction, and it would interfere with justice/legal process if it was in the public domain and there was a retrial.

 

[Tortoise]

Hi Soozie

What I cannot understand is how that judge could possibly have dismissed all of the warning signs from all of the different agencies. Reminds me of Masipa.

Have you seen the quote from the vicious letter BB sent to Ellie's grandparents? This was sent whilst they had custody, so must have been available to show to the court during the Justice Hogg hearing. How could that be ignored? How? If Hogg saw that letter and still gave Ellie back to her parents then her actions go beyond dereliction of duty into frank criminal negligence in my view.

Someone suggested a petition and I do wonder whether one of those 100,000 signature petitions forcing parliament to debate the call for a public enquiry should be started (if it hasn't already).

Having seen Justice Hogg's judgement - she did make reference to their threats to JG's parents in it. It's unbelievable, she thinks their behaviour was understandable, having had their children removed. She also swept under the carpet the small fact that neither parent had bothered to keep up visits they were allowed with their children.

If she thinks her role is not/was not personal, I don't know what she thought she was doing making decisions in children's personal, precious lives.

 

[flutterby]

Lovely pic from the Mail

 

[flutterby]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-not-to-be-sent-back-to-her-parents-says-aunt

Emails from Julie Gray to the court-appointed social workers reveal Ellie had said she wanted to stay living with her grandparents “for one hundred million years” and was frightened about the prospect of moving in with Ben Butler.

“She [Ellie] has started asking why does she have to go to live with mummy because she does not want to,” Julie Gray wrote in an email in October 2012 obtained by the Guardian. “She wants to stay with Nana and Granddad forever and ever. She is very clear that she does not want to go to live with Ben and Jennie but she would like to visit and return to her home after.”

“She has recently got into the habit of not wanting to go to sleep in case she is taken away, having nightmares about waking up somewhere else, getting in bed with mum and dad and myself when I stay over so she cannot be taken away and has also wet herself on several occasions – which I am informed is a sign of stress in a child who does not usually have this problem.”

Devastating words for her aunt

 

[flutterby]

From the same Guardian link

In another email exchange on 29 October 2012 with Julie Gray, one of the social workers – who worked for Services for Children (S4C) – admitted knowing Ellie did not want to return to her parents and said for that reason the handover was going to be speeded up.

“Effectively she does not have a choice in this, as we would expect her to say she does not want to go. The decision taken to move her sooner is due to a belief that she is unlikely to choose this,” the email states.

Where did Hogg find these social workers?! A quick google or something?

 

[flutterby]

Sorry, triple post... I keep finding more from the article to post

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-not-to-be-sent-back-to-her-parents-says-aunt

The Serious Case Review also states that Ellie asked to speak to Hogg about the move but this request was not granted. When Ellie returned from a contact visit with her parents just days before she went to live with them she had a bruise on her head. Her grandparents raised this with S4C and reported it to Ellie’s doctor and her school

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi Soozie

What I cannot understand is how that judge could possibly have dismissed all of the warning signs from all of the different agencies. Reminds me of Masipa.

Have you seen the quote from the vicious letter BB sent to Ellie's grandparents? This was sent whilst they had custody, so must have been available to show to the court during the Justice Hogg hearing. How could that be ignored? How? If Hogg saw that letter and still gave Ellie back to her parents then her actions go beyond dereliction of duty into frank criminal negligence in my view.

Someone suggested a petition and I do wonder whether one of those 100,000 signature petitions forcing parliament to debate the call for a public enquiry should be started (if it hasn't already).

Good idea Lyra. I remember your very first posts on this thread and you were right about the evil duo. However I'm starting to feel very cynical now, ( especially as I see more cases of this type of abuse in UK newspapers.) , we keep hearing lessons will be learnt, judicial restrictions. Lost in the middle are people like Ellie, Lin & Neal.

Maybe we should do something - most of us, even newbies, have followed this for months and we are interested in justice

What do other people think?

100K isn't many these days due to social media

 

[Gigi-G]

This isn't to do with the baby injury gigi. In 2014 there was a HIgh Court hearing/judgement in front of Mrs Justice King, to determine the facts of Ellie's death - because of her sibling's care order/proceedings. She determined that BB had on the balance of probabilities been responsible for killing Ellie. Only one paragraph of her judgement has been released to the media, saying that he used the table leg to kill her.

Now the media want access to the full judgement but Pauffley said today that it won't be released because BB said he will appeal his murder conviction, and it would interfere with justice/legal process if it was in the public domain and there was a retrial.

Wth? But those facts should be privvy to the case. And how would it interfere with an appeal. He murdered Ellie. Of that theres no doubt.
How can disclosing case literature cause a problem. Hes gonna appeal. We all know that. But the feeling in the public view is he is one abhorrent person. That needs to be under lock and key.
Do you ever see him winning an appeal.

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[Gigi-G]

View attachment 97090

Lovely pic from the Mail

Beautiful. ♡

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[Gigi-G]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-not-to-be-sent-back-to-her-parents-says-aunt


Devastating words for her aunt

I really am. Struggling on here today. After being a parent whos lost a child. This weighs heavy.
I can feel their pain. Its so raw. And now they got the justice for Ellie.
Yet theyre feared that he could overturn the case again..
Im hoping that never comes to light. Thats why Judge Wilkie. Said what he said and did what he did to make sure everything was in order.

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[cottonweaver]

From the same Guardian link



Where did Hogg find these social workers?! A quick google or something?

If you look at their site, they do lots for solicitor firms and quite a lot for Local Authorities in SE( They are based in Reading) . Hogg said she was familiar with them but IDK who suggested it in the first place, it could have been a Guardian ( not gps, can even be a social worker. ) She should have chosen SWs from another local auth nearby. From what I have read about Hogg's decision she really thought she was going to solve everything, cut a swathe through the impasses, as if she knew better than the Local Authority.
She said she was impressed by BB despite his swearing etc. She found him reflective & insightful, in comparison to JG. She relied on them as if they were truthful witnesses. She often didn't seem to rely on substantiation for their claims or disregarded the facts in favour of the justifications.

eg. of what Hogg "swallowed" with some extra sarcastic input
- BB says they are not in a relationship, but they share impartial support. Ok , that sounds good. says Hogg, tick
- JG says her facial bruises are botox. Tick says Hogg, never had botox myself, but if you say so cool.
- BB says he's ok really, he just gets angry and swears a lot. Oh ok says Hogg, that'll be cause your working class then, never met one before. ...how exotic
- BB says he's bit of a lairy rough diamond, been inside before . Hogg says, ok as long as it's only adult victims. ( As if there is no statistical link between DV in home and risks to vulnerable. That's in the ruddy "SW 101 " book.)
- JG says he never poked me in the head and chest when I was in hospital. Hogg says, yes these 21 ur old single, junior docs, what do they know, BB was just trying to get you to pull yourself together wasn't he. Tick

What shocked me is that she is massively experienced as a lawyer and at Family Court.

Fair enough, she didn't have access to JG's medical history as JG had pulled that confidentiality stunt ( see report ) but for the life of me I don't u'stand how you get so experienced in Family Court cases without being sufficiently sceptical and clued up in your view of the world.

Report says that evasive tricksters like these 2 are almost a SW cliche they are that common.

 

[Gigi-G]

If you look at their site, they do lots for solicitor firms and quite a lot for Local Authorities in SE( They are based in Reading) . Hogg said she was familiar with them but IDK who suggested it in the first place, it could have been a Guardian ( not gps, can even be a social worker. ) She should have chosen SWs from another local auth nearby. From what I have read about Hogg's decision she really thought she was going to solve everything, cut a swathe through the impasses, as if she knew better than the Local Authority.
She said she was impressed by BB despite his swearing etc. She found him reflective & insightful, in comparison to JG. She relied on them as if they were truthful witnesses. She often didn't seem to rely on substantiation for their claims or disregarded the facts in favour of the justifications.

eg. of what Hogg "swallowed" with some extra sarcastic input
- BB says they are not in a relationship, but they share impartial support. Ok , that sounds good. says Hogg, tick
- JG says her facial bruises are botox. Tick says Hogg, never had botox myself, but if you say so cool.
- BB says he's ok really, he just gets angry and swears a lot. Oh ok says Hogg, that'll be cause your working class then, never met one before. ...how exotic
- BB says he's bit of a lairy rough diamond, been inside before . Hogg says, ok as long as it's not adults ( As if there is no statistical link between DV in home and risks to vulnerable. That's in the ruddy "SW 101 " book.)
- JG says he never poked me in the head and chest when I was in hospital. Hogg says, yes these 21 ur old single, junior docs, what do they know, BB was just trying to get you to pull yourself together wasn't he. Tick

What shocked me is that she is massively experienced as a lawyer and at Family Court.

Fair enough, she didn't have access to JG's medical history as JG had pulled that confidentiality stunt ( see report ) but for the life of me I don't u'stand how you get so experienced in Family Court cases without being sufficiently sceptical and clued up in your view of the world.

Report says that evasive tricksters like these 2 are almost a SW cliche they are that common.

:hugefatsigh:

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[Gigi-G]

I was elated yesterday.... today im on a rapid decline.
Why does everything have to be so cloak and dagger.
And why are Trusting members of the Judiciary playing god with people's lives.
Dang if theyve had access to BB n JGs files. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to show that out of for example 10 meetings that were arranged for Ellie to be seen by one of the specialist's. N she only attended 1 ..... hello. Ding freakin dong

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[cottonweaver]

:hugefatsigh:

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Don't be down about it. My fault.

His appeal will be squashed. They're both locked up right now. He wont get out til he is 60, if that. ( He's blubbing and rocking on his mattress. She's already had several spats.) That's three reasons to be cheerful again.

 

[cottonweaver]

I was elated yesterday.... today im on a rapid decline.
Why does everything have to be so cloak and dagger.
And why are Trusting members of the Judiciary playing god with people's lives.
Dang if theyve had access to BB n JGs files. It doesn't take a mathematical genius to show that out of for example 10 meetings that were arranged for Ellie to be seen by one of the specialist's. N she only attended 1 ..... hello. Ding freakin dong

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The "10 meetings"/no-shows , she always had an excuse, work, training, she lost a job due to one contact date etc. She didn't see YD as it was traumatic, so she was protecting herself by staying away.
His excuses - he didn't want to get too close to Ellie in case he lost the custody case. ( that was main one that I remember)


ie answer for everything.