GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #2

[Florrie]

Eyes colors
I just did a small experiment to try and remember all guys I fell in love with from 45 years back. Even those I never dated or had a relationship with. It seems I never forgot their eye color. So I will end this little post by mentioning that Donny Osmond have brown eyes.

I do have to say that apart from one or two I couldn't tell you eye colour of many past boyfriends or even family. I know that I would say "I think...." rather than give a definite answer. Even my husband who has brown/hazel eyes...I might still umm and err on the phone in a time of stress. But then I have Asperger's and sometimes fail to notice things which others do.
We haven't heard that this is the same for IS though so it's irrelevant in his case. He should have known clearly what Helen's eye colour was.

The more and more I hear, the more and more I think him just disassociated from his emotions. He seems to have no real feeling for Helen as that phone call shows very clearly. The description of Boris as "it" is chilling too. A person who loved a missing animal would clearly say "he/she" when giving a description.
All the past tense stuff too.


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[Squamous]

He just seems like such an oaf. Helen was witty and sarcastic and spoke as she found, and classy and stylish with a taste for the finer things in life. He late husband dressed in designer suits and classic statement ties and ran an extremely successful business. Helen loved the London life, the culture on her doorstep, she had her brother and his partner in the city. I just want an alternative reality for her where she gradually came to terms with he husband's death, moved on to a gorgeous little flat in Muswell Hill and lived her own Helen-ish life of dinners out and theatre and friends rather than being hoodwinked by this horrible man who wheedled his way in and just took her over. I think not working and not having dependent children probably meant he could "be there" for her when she needed it in way that blinded her to the fact that he is a total idiot. There certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence that her family and friends liked or saw him at all, they can talk about what Helen thought of him but not their own feelings, her beloved brother had only been their house once which strikes me as very sad.

 

[Alyce]

I do have to say that apart from one or two I couldn't tell you eye colour of many past boyfriends or even family. I know that I would say "I think...." rather than give a definite answer. Even my husband who has brown/hazel eyes...I might still umm and err on the phone in a time of stress. But then I have Asperger's and sometimes fail to notice things which others do.
We haven't heard that this is the same for IS though so it's irrelevant in his case. He should have known clearly what Helen's eye colour was.

The more and more I hear, the more and more I think him just disassociated from his emotions. He seems to have no real feeling for Helen as that phone call shows very clearly. The description of Boris as "it" is chilling too. A person who loved a missing animal would clearly say "he/she" when giving a description.
All the past tense stuff too.


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As an animal lover, I would have been sayng - and Boris is missing too - before I would then go on to explain that Boris is our dog

 

[Cherwell]

In her blog she mentioned that her husband's son asked her not to bring him to a family gathering because he didn't want to meet him. She was quite put out, but goes on to talk about the kind of person she would not want IS to marry if she died before him ....
It's sickening reading some of this now we know what was to happen.

I'll try and find it to add a link.
Here it is http://planetgrief.com/2015/09/18/tug-of-love/

She responded to someone in the comments:

Having both been widowed, GGHW and I have talked about what we would want if we were widowed again and I do say that I would want him to find a new partner. HOWEVER, knowing how hurt and vulnerable the bereaved are, I then add a lengthy list of conditions: I want him to find new love but not if this imposter hates dogs, or is mean to his sons, or is after any money he might have, or is b-itchy or hasn't any female friends (a sure danger sign to me) and so on. In other words, I want to be able to choose who he is with after I am gone in order to be happy that he's happy. Complicated, isn't it?

 

[Squamous]

How did he write those flowery messages to her while she was missing? Has he got a ghost writer?!

I don't see how he's going to get out of this one. He has clearly stated all sorts of things, like the note, the confident assertions that she wasn't involved in crime or likely to be a victim of any sort of abuse, that he definitely knows when he saw her last etc that I've no idea how he's going unravel all of that and insert our good friends Nick and Joe as the real villains of the piece.

 

[Alyce]

Taken from the call....

Is there anything else to be done now?"

"When you say shortly - What are we talking about?"

"Its just a question of waiting, theres nothing else you do at this stage?"


If I had heard this at the very beginning of Helen * going missing*, it could be interpreted innocently.

Knowing what I/we know now, it sounds like he is getting a confirmation that nothing else has to be done, so he can use this statement to justify, to JB and Helen's friends, the reason he is doing nothing. He does in fact say something about having to update her brother.

 

[Alyce]

In her blog she mentioned that her husband's son asked her not to bring him to a family gathering because he didn't want to meet him. She was quite put out, but goes on to talk about the kind of person she would not want IS to marry if she died before him ....
It's sickening reading some of this now we know what was to happen.

I'll try and find it to add a link.
Here it is http://planetgrief.com/2015/09/18/tug-of-love/

She responded to someone in the comments:

That is extremely sad. Wonder what his check list would have been ?

 

[Cherwell]

Taken from the call....

Is there anything else to be done now?"

"When you say shortly - What are we talking about?"

"Its just a question of waiting, theres nothing else you do at this stage?"


If I had heard this at the very beginning of Helen * going missing*, it could be interpreted innocently.

Knowing what I/we know now, it sounds like he is getting a confirmation that nothing else has to be done, so he can use this statement to justify, to JB and Helen's friends, the reason he is doing nothing. He does in fact say something about having to update her brother.

I agree. Perhaps it's unrealistic to be so picky about wording, but if I was desperately worried about someone, I would be more likely to say,

"There's nothing else you can do at this stage?"
or
"There's nothing else I can do at this stage?"

 

[Squamous]

I think that bit might also be related to his later shock when they pitched up with a search party and cadaver dog. Strange too that he seemed taken aback that they might want the address of the Kent cottage.

What struck me was that he seemed to have no perception of how other people are looking at things, he's so caught up in himself. The call taker clearly didn't know where Broadstairs or Margate are but he didn't seem to pick up on that enough to say "it's in Kent". There was another example too that escapes me.

I found the contrast horrible between him not knowing her height ("she must have told me at some point..." - is that not an odd thing to say?!) and the centimetre-accurate measure of her height taken at her post-mortem. Poor woman.

 

[Cherwell]

It was obvious that he didn't expect to be questioned at such length and in such detail.

 

[Tortoise]

Another lie, about the papers for the solicitor that he said he had to go back for.

He said that he was in a rush and realised he had left half the papers behind, and so went back to the house to get them. At first I thought this could mean that he left home at 2:45 and on his way to the doctors realised he hadn't picked up everything, turned around to go back and get them, and then went back out again - to the doctors first. But he also said that the last trip he made was to the solicitors and he went there twice. This means that on his version he must have gone to the doctors, then the solicitors, then gone back to get the rest of the papers and returned for a second time to the solicitors, meaning he was at the house sometime between 3:07 when he left the doctors and 5pm.

I hope the prosecution points this out to the jury because his account cannot be reconciled but it isn't that obvious.

[FONT=&amp][/FONT][FONT=&amp]His recorded police interview -

“I changed my doctor’s appointment to 3pm. You can check if you want.[/FONT][FONT=&amp] I do know the solicitors was last [on the day].

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“I dashed out because I was late. I realised I’d only taken half of the solicitors papers, so I rushed back, saw the other paperwork on the side.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“Then I went back to the solicitors and came home. Helen wasn’t here, then I thought she had gone to Broadstairs.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“I remember thinking ‘she really has gone’.


Solicitor Timothy Penn said -

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]He reiterated that Stewart came in to the solicitor’s office on April 11, 2016, and it was possible that Stewart came into his office to give him the box of files.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]“I don’t recall him coming back in later the same day with more paperwork, but this could have happened.[/FONT]

His secretary Celia Rolf said -

[FONT=&amp]“I don’t recall seeing him on April 11, 2016.*
[/FONT]

He also told the police on 15th April that he had asked Helen on his way out what she wanted for tea, and although not specifically saying why, he added that he went to Morrisons. One might think it was to buy food for tea. Notably his memory of going to Morrisons had gone by 22nd April. On 22nd April he told police that when he picked up the Chinese takeaway he thought Helen could have had some if she was there because they had discussed it. He never mentioned that on 15th and it would be quite important if Helen had said 'why don't we have a Chinese tonight', if she was planning on going away.

 

[Alyce]

Is it just me or is this conflicting information.
From the police evidence it sounds as though they were aware of the septic tank from Monday July 11 and had just delayed searching there until Friday July 15 , firstly because they couldnt open the cover and then, when they did, because it needed to be drained.
But the neighbour seems to be saying the police had no idea there was another tank on Thursday July 14 and mentions that the police spoke with the previous owner on Friday July 15 and it was after this that Helen and Boris were discovered ( same day ).


The police statement re the manhole cover is
“During the course of this search - Monday July 11 - the vehicles were moved from the garage, to assist dog handlers to do their job.

“There was conversation about the hatchway to the cesspit. On that day the officers in the garage said they were unable to lift the hatch [to open the cesspit].”

He said the police dogs did not indicate anything around that area. Because of this, and because the lid of the cesspit had not been lifted, this was marked as something to be re-tasked.


On Tuesday July 12 the search continues, with more officers.
By this stage, I had a full licensed search officer team with me and we had the lifting gear to lift the hatch of the cesspit.
“One of the pairs present was able to lift the hatch on that occasion.
“I wasn’t there when this took place. I then looked at it - it smelt of human excrement. When you first put your head over the cesspit it made you stand back because of the fumes, but it wasn’t a particularly nasty smell that would make you vomit.
“The lid was then put back down again.”

This was re-tasked, because if the cesspit was to be full searched it had to be emptied. Police did not have breathing apparatus or the skills to do this at the time.

Sergeant Oliphant said: “We made contact with a firm that emptied cesspits. The firm had previously been to the cesspit in the garden on Friday ( this would have been April 22 ).

We asked them to come back and help deal with what we’d just found.

“On July 15 a man from the company went down the driveway. I showed him the hatch that led to the cesspit under the garage, he explained he’d been there previously. When we removed the hatch again he looked to see what equipment he needed and he went back to his vehicle



The neighbours comments in msm ( at the time of the discovery ) are
We had a word with police on Thursday evening ( July 14 ) to ask what time they would be turning it ( the generator ) off. They said they were due to finish the next day.

‘We were just leaving when I said, “It might sound stupid, but have you dredged the well?”
‘We told them the last person who lived there used to joke that he had this ideal place to dump a body.

‘The senior officer came to see us the next morning ( Friday July 15 ) and we told him what we knew. Then my mum phoned the former owner of the house so the detective could speak directly to him.

‘It turned out the police had only been draining the overflow tank in the old well in the garden, thinking that was all there was.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...charge-body-hidden-cesspit.html#ixzz4WUzyn0fB
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[pinklilies]

One of the things I picked up on in that 101 call, was how he found her date of birth. I was thinking if I couldn't recall my 'partners' then where would I look to find where it was written down? I'd have to go searching for his passport or birth certificate as I can't think what else it would be written on. I just wouldn't be able to put my hand on it within a few seconds, like he does. Nothing in this I know, It just made me think he was there, in amongst her personal stuff.
PS. I was just going to delete this post as it's totally irrelevant but knowing what we know now, it makes me feel as though he was intruding on her privacy and I want to tell him to stop touching her things and get out of her space. I'm feeling particularly sorry for Helen and Boris right now.

 

[Tortoise]

I've wondered about this too Alyce, there has been no mention of this revelation by the neighbour/previous owner to the police yet. Do you think perhaps that the police were already on to it, having booked the company to come back on the Friday to get it open and drain it, but they were interested in speaking to the previous owner when they heard the comment about it being a good place to hide a body?

 

[Cherwell]

Re post 52, July 15th was a Friday, so the neighbour's statement seems to be the correct one. There must be a typo in the police statement, or the reporting of it.

ETA: Ignore. Alyce's edit makes this clearer.

 

[Alyce]

I've wondered about this too Alyce, there has been no mention of this revelation by the neighbour/previous owner to the police yet. Do you think perhaps that the police were already on to it, having booked the company to come back on the Friday to get it open and drain it, but they were interested in speaking to the previous owner when they heard the comment about it being a good place to hide a body?

Am thinking that must be it.
I have just added a bit more of the chain of police evidence to my post above and it does look as though the police had the septic tank on their action list. Speaking to the owner would make sense though, considering his famous party piece line !

 

[Alyce]

Re post 52, July 15th was a Friday, so the neighbour's statement seems to be the correct one. There must be a typo in the police statement, or the reporting of it.

I've just updated my post with more of the police evidence. It does look as though they were aware of the tank by Tuesday July 12, but delayed until Friday as they needed a Company to come and drain it.

 

[ColourPurple]

One of the things I picked up on in that 101 call, was how he found her date of birth. I was thinking if I couldn't recall my 'partners' then where would I look to find where it was written down? I'd have to go searching for his passport or birth certificate as I can't think what else it would be written on. I just wouldn't be able to put my hand on it within a few seconds, like he does. Nothing in this I know, It just made me think he was there, in amongst her personal stuff.
PS. I was just going to delete this post as it's totally irrelevant but knowing what we know now, it makes me feel as though he was intruding on her privacy and I want to tell him to stop touching her things and get out of her space. I'm feeling particularly sorry for Helen and Boris right now.

Passport or driving license would be my guess, or with Helen being famous.. maybe wikipedia?

The police noted he seeemd shocked when they found Helen's passport and asked where they'd found it. Making it sound like either he'd been looking for it and hadn't found it or he'd hidden it and been surprised they'd found it.

 

[Tortoise]

Passport or driving license would be my guess, or with Helen being famous.. maybe wikipedia?

The police noted he seeemd shocked when they found Helen's passport and asked where they'd found it. Making it sound like either he'd been looking for it and hadn't found it or he'd hidden it and been surprised they'd found it.

Again there are conflicting police reports about her passport. On 15th April there is one police officer saying IS said her passport is still here, and another police officer saying he turned white when police produced it. What we don't know is which police report came first time-wise.

 

[ColourPurple]

Hi, I'm new here and wide-eyed with joy that there are other people like me who love picking over every tiny detail in these kinds of cases. I've just binge read the whole thread, I'm going to regret this late night in the morning.

I totally agree on the shock of IS' voice. In fact, my heart totally sank when I heard it, I had been trying to hope that maybe HB hadn't been betrayed in such an awful way, but as soon as he started talking I was somehow left in no doubt. It's so horrendously sad

Anyway, I hope you'll be ok with me hanging round here and contributing my twopenneth. My husband is going to be thrilled that I have a more interested outlet for my detective style rambling!

Welcome

I hadn't realised the trial had started and had to do a binge read to catch up last week too. Thankfully we had some great posting of tweets, news stories and opinions to get me up to date.