GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #6

[neteditor]

NetEditor,
If you're still here , did your old Beeb BF give you any extra snippets, that you can actually say aloud on the thread?

Hi CW, I'm not sure if I posted it in here, but the main thing we talked about since Thursday was the body language of IS (as reported by Lit, I think. ETA sorry it was Michelle.). He said IS slouches and has a few facial and other tics. He wondered if it was down to the facial scar from the door incident and we discussed that it might be MG symptoms causing it. And he is still sure the jury isn't buying a word of IS's evidence, which is always good to hear. Hopefully we'll chat again tomorrow.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi CW, I'm not sure if I posted it in here, but the main thing we talked about since Thursday was the body language of IS (as reported by Lit, I think. ETA sorry it was Michelle.). He said IS slouches and has a few facial and other tics. He wondered if it was down to the facial scar from the door incident and we discussed that it might be MG symptoms causing it. And he is still sure the jury isn't buying a word of IS's evidence, which is always good to hear. Hopefully we'll chat again tomorrow.

cheers.
Tiredness and stress reputedly exacerbate Mg so it's interesting to hear the tics have come back , as an earlier doc said he had not seen any from IS. Probably comes and goes.

 

[ZaZara]

Trimmer: “She went to her computer and googled it?”
Stewart: “Yes, she showed me from her iPad websites to say you shouldn’t take zopiclone with your health condition.”
Trimmer: “Do you remember which site this was?”
Stewart: “No.”
Trimmer: “We should expect to find that search on Helen’s iPad?
Stewart: “Yes”
Trimmer: “Until this point the prosecution have not heard that zopiclone was taken from you and Helen researched it?
Stewart: “Yes”
Trimmer: "So we should expect to find a search for this on Helen’s iPad?
Stewart: “No, Helen regularly deleted history. This is something she always did.”

(...)

Trimmer: “Unless she took them from you there isn’t any other method of getting that zopiclone in her system is there?”
Stewart: “No. She took them herself.”

RSBM & BBM

Yes, you can expect to find a search.
(half a minute later...)
No, you cannot expect to find a search.

This is the earlier statement of witness consultant forensic pathologist Nathaniel Carey:
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-day-12435557

11.17

The findings are consistent with her being under the influence of zopiclone at the time Helen met her death.

According to IS, Helen was held captive by NiJo at the time she met her death, days after she disappeared.
Yet IS admits to Trimmer that there isn't any other method than that HB took the zoplicone herself and from him.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

 

[DollyDiamond]

I don't think keeping IS "on the back foot" would be the best strategy. Giving him more rope to hang himself will be more productive. Trimmer is giving him space to make mistakes.

I'm glad you and others have such faith in Mr Trimmer. I'm not quite so impressed at this stage, based on the transcript I feel there have been a few missed opportunities. But it's early days so I'll reserve judgement and see how he performs next week. We'll have to agree to differ on this one Cherwell!

 

[neteditor]

cheers.
Tiredness and stress reputedly exacerbate Mg so it's interesting to hear the tics have come back , as an earlier doc said he had not seen any from IS. Probably comes and goes.

I have no experience with MG but have some with other auto immune conditions. They all seem to have remissions and flare ups in common. And from the little I know, stress, tiredness, catching a virus etc would all risk a flare. It's very possible indeed that his MG is flaring with the pressure.

Regardless, however, I don't think people in general see someone with strange body/facial movements and think "Aww poor love must have MG / autism / Tourettes / whatever" and give them a break. It's almost universal for people to think "Wow, weirdo, keep away!". I have some facial weirdness going on when I speak, my Asperger's leaks out. People wouldn't know I'm an aspie generally so they just think I'm weird (I probably am weird too, of course!).

 

[cottonweaver]

According to IS, Helen was held captive by NiJo at the time she met her death, days after she disappeared.
Yet IS admits to Trimmer that there isn't any other method than that HB took the zoplicone herself and from him.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

RSBM he now claims she kept a mixed bag of assorted pills in the face of his previous stance that she used no meds at all, except herbals.
all these were conveniently in her handbag!

his sneakiness knows no bounds, he can't have the pills in the bedside table/meds cabinet as that would entail NJ having to give her time to pack essentials

"“Helen had a little bag she put inside her handbag, inside that was mixed tablets and so on. “That’s where she kept medicine she might want at any time, hormone cream. Beta blockers, anti sickness pills. “They were ready with her wherever she wanted.”"

BIB That phrasing is telling for me - the over-emphasis from a liar for jury's benefit. ( HB stood no chance with such a determined liar, bereavement or no bereavement)

Hopefully some old lag inside has stolen his flowcharts from his evidence planning days, they must be on several sheets A1 paper with arrows going off in every direction to cover each eventuality, or it's on a notes app on the teeny tiny imaginary phone. :facepalm:

 

[neteditor]

I'm glad you and others have such faith in Mr Trimmer. I'm not quite so impressed at this stage, based on the transcript I feel there have been a few missed opportunities. But it's early days so I'll reserve judgement and see how he performs next week. We'll have to agree to differ on this one Cherwell!

I think he's just picking his battles carefully.

 

[cottonweaver]

I think he's just picking his battles carefully.

On Monday, now that he's had chance to digest IS's brand new disclosures, it'll be interesting to see if Pros simply continues along the same approach as posters have said above.
With some jurors already eye-rolling or smirking at IS's incredible yarn , Trimmer doesn't have to do much.

 

[Cherwell]

I'm glad you and others have such faith in Mr Trimmer. I'm not quite so impressed at this stage, based on the transcript I feel there have been a few missed opportunities. But it's early days so I'll reserve judgement and see how he performs next week. We'll have to agree to differ on this one Cherwell!

ZaZara's post 846 above mine gives some good examples of how Trimmer's questioning is luring IS into making fatal errors.

 

[Moll]

RSBM & BBM

Yes, you can expect to find a search.
(half a minute later...)
No, you cannot expect to find a search.

This is the earlier statement of witness consultant forensic pathologist Nathaniel Carey:
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-day-12435557

11.17


According to IS, Helen was held captive by NiJo at the time she met her death, days after she disappeared.
Yet IS admits to Trimmer that there isn't any other method than that HB took the zoplicone herself and from him.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

Of course ...brilliant, Zazara...and Trimmer, naturally.

If this should be pointed out to IS, he'd hastily have NiJo taking a supply of Zopiclone to keep Helen under sedation while kidnapped, I expect.

 

[DollyDiamond]

On Monday, now that he's had chance to digest IS's brand new disclosures, it'll be interesting to see if Pros simply continues along the same approach as posters have said above.
With some jurors already eye-rolling or smirking at IS's incredible yarn , Trimmer doesn't have to do much.

Really? I hadn't heard that about the jurors, was that reported by a Websleuther who was present? An excellent sign!

 

[neteditor]

Really? I hadn't heard that about the jurors, was that reported by a Websleuther who was present? An excellent sign!

OBF told me about the eye rolling and smirking... and his own counsel groaning when he got his nap times mixed up.

 

[cottonweaver]

Really? I hadn't heard that about the jurors, was that reported by a Websleuther who was present? An excellent sign!

cross post with Net-Ed. Russel Flint groaning too - thanks for reminder.

 

[Tortoise]

Found it

[FONT=&amp]Jamie Stewart gives more detail about note his father said he had found from Helen but later thrown out. Jamie said he later found a note

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Jamie photographed note saying "gone to Broadstairs, love you" - but father later acknowledged having written it. Jamie gave photo to police


and hadn't seen this before -
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
Prosecution has Oliver Stewart admit perhaps memory is faulty, and that he may not have seen his father early evening April 11th after all (I think the reporter has it wrong and it is defence cross examination)
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]After this -
Evening of Monday April 11th - date of alleged murder - Oliver says he'd have had to go home to change, remembers talking briefly to his dad[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
http://news.sky.com/story/live-updates-helen-bailey-murder-trial-10730888
[/FONT]

 

[cottonweaver]

tx Toroise. Good on Jamie

oliver's ...., took me ages to re-find it so pasting it here

“On the Sunday (April 10, 2016) I popped back to the house to collect work clothes for Monday. I remember seeing Helen, who asked if I wanted any food and I said no. “I popped into the lounge to see dad and Jamie. I was at the house no more than 20 minutes.“I spent the night at my girlfriend’s parents house, and went directly to work.

“On the evening of April 11, 2016, I would’ve been attending cadets as that is a usual occurrence for a Monday and a Wednesday.
“I would’ve gone home to change. I did see dad, it was a brief conversation because dad knows my Monday night routine.
“It was normal. Everything was normal. I didn’t see Helen or the dog.
“Usually I would be home at 10pm, but this night was different and I was delayed coming home. I got home about 11.30pm, and I didn’t see anyone.”Dad wasn't complaining of any injury', says second son

 

[DollyDiamond]

I think he's just picking his battles carefully.

I hope you're right! He doesn't have too hard a job here, as IS' defence is an obvious and laughable fabrication and he doesn't even possess the charm that might put some doubt in a juror's mind.

One of the many things that astonishes me about this case is that, for a master of manipulation, IS just doesn't seem terribly bright or savvy. He's about as far from the stereotypical brilliant, scheming, gold digging 'lady killer' as it's possible to get. Helen was fiercely intelligent and had to be humouring this decidely 'Mr Below Average' an awful lot on the QT. He must have been aware she was out of his league intellectually (and in every other way), but rather than be thrilled and humbled that she loved and wanted to marry him, this disparity festered within him as anger and resentment. I strongly suspect there was also a sexual inadequacy in him, which added to his quiet rage.

The arrogance of the man is hard to comprehend. His looks are relevant here because they do not correspond with his overweening conceit. Can you imagine a middle aged woman as physically unimpressive as IS targeting and pursuing an eligible, attractive, successful and wealthy author, in the way IS did Helen? It would never happen!

 

[perfectvirgo]

Indeed you can't always predict a jury (I was disappointed at the two Not Guilty verdicts in the Rolf Harris sex abuse trial last week). However, Michelle's superbly written summary of IS' performance and persona on the stand reassures me. She said his general demeanour and mannerisms were as unappealing as the lies that poured from his mouth and unlikely to endear him to the jury. Interesting isn't it, that there is no apparent hint of whatever positive qualities he had that he so successfully charmed Helen with? As with so many things in life, timing played a huge part in his successful 'wooing' of her. He sneaked into her affections over email when she was raw with grief in the immediate aftermath of her bereavement. Had she first met IS at a cocktail party or the like, a year or more after being widowed, I doubt he'd have impressed her at all.

I quite agree, Michelle's, and others, reports from within the courtroom give more of a 'feel' to the sometimes dry testimony. I am trusting that the jury is made up of like-minded souls, among whom no single one is wavering. Yep, nothing I have read has shown any warmth, compassion or humanity from the defendant. One can only assume Helen's better judgement was blinded through emotional fragility.

 

[neteditor]

The more I think about it the less I can see the sons perjuring themselves for IS. Even IF (mahooooooosive if) the Nick and JoeDave story is true, their dad sat about that Monday night eating Chinese food and acting normally. He made up a note and lied to them and the rest of the family for weeks and weeks. There's no way of getting around it. Whether he killed her or NJD did, he's pulled the wool over their eyes for months. They've GOT to be wondering if he managed to do the same when their mother died. There's a reason Jamie hasn't been to see him once.

 

[ColourPurple]

Found it

[FONT=&amp]Jamie Stewart gives more detail about note his father said he had found from Helen but later thrown out. Jamie said he later found a note

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Jamie photographed note saying "gone to Broadstairs, love you" - but father later acknowledged having written it. Jamie gave photo to police


and hadn't seen this before -
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
Prosecution has Oliver Stewart admit perhaps memory is faulty, and that he may not have seen his father early evening April 11th after all (I think the reporter has it wrong and it is defence cross examination)
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]After this -
Evening of Monday April 11th - date of alleged murder - Oliver says he'd have had to go home to change, remembers talking briefly to his dad[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
http://news.sky.com/story/live-updates-helen-bailey-murder-trial-10730888
[/FONT]

Wow,excellent find. I wonder if IS knew Jamie had had the iniative to photograph it.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have no experience with MG but have some with other auto immune conditions. They all seem to have remissions and flare ups in common. And from the little I know, stress, tiredness, catching a virus etc would all risk a flare. It's very possible indeed that his MG is flaring with the pressure.

Regardless, however, I don't think people in general see someone with strange body/facial movements and think "Aww poor love must have MG / autism / Tourettes / whatever" and give them a break. It's almost universal for people to think "Wow, weirdo, keep away!". I have some facial weirdness going on when I speak, my Asperger's leaks out. People wouldn't know I'm an aspie generally so they just think I'm weird (I probably am weird too, of course!).

MG is a strange disease. If one sits down and rests the muscles will then work again for a short while. I don't think the doctor would notice anything abnormal about IS on a visit to the surgery if he was taking the appropriate medication. Problems arise, depending on how severe one suffers the disease, when it is necessary to walk anywhere or repeatedly use a group of muscles etc. I can tell you my GP was useless but most GP's never see the disease because it is so rare. It took me several years to get a diagnosis and in the end it was I who insisted I saw a neurologist who diagnosed it immediately.

What happens is that the receptor sites that "trigger" muscles into action are destroyed by antibodies and therefore cannot work. This normally happens over a period of time, meaning that fewer and fewer receptor sites are available to allow the muscle to be activated. This is where the fatigues sets in.

I don't really want to talk too much about me, only to give some insight into what a nasty disease this is. I have a feeling he had a thymectomy, as I did, which eventually meant I could reduce the drugs. I was one of the lucky ones because thymectomy does not always work. It is not a cure in that the damaged receptor sites, after a period of time, will never work properly again. If he is still taking drugs he should, if he gets the timing right, be able to behave reasonably normally for 2 hours out of 4. His GP has confirmed he does have MG and he will have a repeat prescription for the drugs he needs.

I have to be honest and say I think he does have a real problem but if medicated properly it should enable him to function fairly normally for at least part of the day. I think it is in his interest not to take his medicine as and when he should whilst he is in the witness box because he will wish to appear a bit on the weak side. I have assumed he will be sitting down to give evidence although nobody has actually confirmed this. Tiredness may show in his speech and an inability to hold his head up. I did wonder when the Pros and Def decided he was getting too tired whether his speech was deteriorating. The other problem is stress. As with everyone stress can cause fatigue. With a myasthenic this can exacerbate the symptoms of the disease.

Please don't think I am making any excuses for him. I have no doubt he is guilty. He is an unfettered liar. He was perfectly able to murder Helen and probably chose the drugging method because it would not require any physical effort on his part. Poor Helen probably was nearly comotose and it would not be too difficult to overcome someone in that state, either with an arm lock or by simply placing a pillow over her face or a polythene bag over her head. There is a point, however, I do not understand. With suffocation eyes would normally be bloodshot and the eyes would normally bulge. I don't recall anything we have heard in the PM report that describes this. Therefore I do wonder whether, like his first wife, she had a fit of some sort. Unfortunately there would be no indication in the brain three months on as I think the brain deteriorates quite quickly after death.

This link describes the process of the disease and how it affect people.

https://medicine.yale.edu/neurology/patients/neuromuscular/mg.aspx