UK - Huge fire rips through Grenfell Tower, Latimer Road, White City, London, June 2017

[MelmothTheLost]

Yes, a farce, greg. I'm stunned. Good things have been done since the fire, but a lot of incompetency is also evident. I hope all this will lead to much needed changes. There seem to be people in power positions that shouldn't be.

100% of the buildings tested have not passed the test? My God :facepalm: The UK has a big job ahead of them now. Are all those residents being evacuated now?

ETA: thanks for keeping updating this thread, greg!

As was noted much earlier in this thread, the driver for cladding so many buildings was the EU directive on energy efficiency which came in around the millennium and which the UK's then Labour government seems to have pursued with something akin to obsession.

The irony is that houses and flat built since about 2000 are proving rather unpopular because they have been built to such levels of insulation that many people find them stiflingly hot and unconfortable in periods of very hot weather (which the UK does get from time to time). While I was working in Yorkshire a few years ago I rented a room in a house built in 2005. It was impossible to close the bedroom windows even in the depths of winter because the house was just too warm, even with the heating off.

 

[Elainera]

As was noted much earlier in this thread, the driver for cladding so many buildings was the EU directive on energy efficiency which came in around the millennium and which the UK's then Labour government seems to have pursued with something akin to obsession.

The irony is that houses and flat built since about 2000 are proving rather unpopular because they have been built to such levels of insulation that many people find them stiflingly hot and unconfortable in periods of very hot weather (which the UK does get from time to time). While I was working in Yorkshire a few years ago I rented a room in a house built in 2005. It was impossible to close the bedroom windows even in the depths of winter because the house was just too warm, even with the heating off.

bbm Sounds like the path to hell was paved with good intentions.

 

[MsMarple]

As was noted much earlier in this thread, the driver for cladding so many buildings was the EU directive on energy efficiency which came in around the millennium and which the UK's then Labour government seems to have pursued with something akin to obsession.

The irony is that houses and flat built since about 2000 are proving rather unpopular because they have been built to such levels of insulation that many people find them stiflingly hot and unconfortable in periods of very hot weather (which the UK does get from time to time). While I was working in Yorkshire a few years ago I rented a room in a house built in 2005. It was impossible to close the bedroom windows even in the depths of winter because the house was just too warm, even with the heating off.

I hear ya - I've been in a few of those houses. Usually though, the culprit isn't too much insulation but rather a lack of a ventilation fan or one that produces too little airflow. And surprise, often it's cost that determines the quality and most building codes/regs only require minimum mechanical ventilation airflow rates, if they require them at all - not all cities do.

As for Grenfell Tower and the other buildings it's looking more and more like exactly what you say - a drive to be as "green" as possible while cutting every possible corner. Not a good combination.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

bbm Sounds like the path to hell was paved with good intentions.

It almost always is.

 

[Ellmau]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40486532

The Grenfell Tower public inquiry chairman is prepared to be "very broad" when looking at the causes of the fire, a senior source has told the BBC.

Sir Martin Moore-Bick's inquiry will "go right back to the construction of the tower" in the 1970s to examine warnings that may have been missed.

some of the survivors have written a letter to the prime minister with 12 demands for changes in the way the disaster is being handled.

These include:

Withdraw the appointment of Sir Martin Moore-Bick as chairman of the inquiry
Explain what consultation will take place before the inquiry's terms of reference are finalised
Guarantee that the inquiry chair will adopt wide terms of reference that goes beyond the narrow one outlined by his recent statement
Ensure the government co-ordinated response team is available 24 hours a day
Confirm that undocumented survivors will be given full UK citizenship

BMElawyers4Grenfell, a group of black and minority ethnic lawyers, wrote the letter on behalf of some of the survivors.

It followed a meeting at the House of Commons last week arranged by shadow home secretary Diane Abbott, and attended by shadow justice minister Richard Burgon, Labour MP for Kensington Emma Dent Coad and Labour MP for Tottenham David Lammy.

 

[gregjrichards]

"Tower blocks where cladding has failed safety tests remain "safe places to be" according to the Welsh Government.

However, Communities Secretary Carl Sargeant said the failure in tests of four blocks in Swansea was "cause for some concern".

He said ministers were awaiting advice from the UK government on whether to carry out further tests or relocate any residents.

Swansea council said the blocks which failed tests met current regulations."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-40480175

I strongly disagree. Anyone can see a huge part of this disaster was the cladding so no I don't believe any building with the garbage stuck to it is safe.

 

[Elainera]

I don't understand. How can the buildings "remain safe places to be"" if the cladding on them failed the safety test? It makes no sense.

I would just move out and not wait for those in charge (and who no doubt live in buildings without this kind of dubious cladding) make up their mind.

smh

 

[Ellmau]

I think because there seems at this early stage to be evidence that it was the combination of the cladding with other elements which resulted in the tragedy. I agree, I wouldn't feel comfortable myself - but look at the families in Camden who are refusing to leave.

 

[CARIIS]

I think it is kinda easy for folks in their house to say move etc etc. Money is a reality availability is another.

The cladding has been for some time and should be removed but the notion that they people have to evacuate seems like knee jerk


they did no evacuate the building to put it in did they

so I assume taking it off can be done occupied.

Nowhere is safe from fire - same here proceed and remove moo

 

[gregjrichards]

"Buildings at three hospitals in England have failed fire safety tests in the wake of the Grenfell Tower disaster, the NHS has revealed.

Cladding is being removed by King's College Hospital in London, Sheffield Children's NHS trust and North Middlesex University Hospitals following failed safety tests.

The news came as it was announced 190 high-rise buildings have now failed combustibility tests rolled out by the Government in the wake of the fire.
Meanwhile, it emerged that a contractor which inspected fire alarms at Grenfell Tower is being investigated for fraud over work done in another part of London.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...adding-tests-Grenfell-fire.html#ixzz4lsdiRcmn

The news gets worse every day what a scandal.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

I don't understand. How can the buildings "remain safe places to be"" if the cladding on them failed the safety test? It makes no sense.

I would just move out and not wait for those in charge (and who no doubt live in buildings without this kind of dubious cladding) make up their mind.

smh

Well, they're safe right now because they're not on fire. See? Totally makes sense!

 

[MelmothTheLost]

"Buildings at three hospitals in England have failed fire safety tests in the wake of the Grenfell Tower disaster, the NHS has revealed.

Cladding is being removed by King's College Hospital in London, Sheffield Children's NHS trust and North Middlesex University Hospitals following failed safety tests.

The news gets worse every day what a scandal.

I'm beginning to think that very little cladding installed on high rise buildings in the UK will be found to meet the most stringent safety standards.

Where any form of public procurement is involved, there is a requirement for the commissioning body to accept the lowest tender unless there are very specific reasons why a more expensive tender should be preferred. This is a basic requirement to prevent tendering contractors inflating their tender prices.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s it was quite common for corrupt local council officials to be hand in glove with corrupt contractors to inflate the price of tenders, with the official getting a backhander for preferring the contractor's bid. The most famous case was the collusion between architect John Poulson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Poulson) and the Leader of Newcastle City Council, T Dan Smith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._Dan_Smith), in the early 1970s - at more or less the time Grenfell Tower was being planned and built.

The requirement to generally accept the cheapest tender, all things being equal, is therefore intended to protect the taxpayer against corruption, but in this case it may well be the reason so many buildings are now failing fire inspections.

 

[Ellmau]

The scene in the flasts is "apocalyptic" according to the coroner. Recovery and ID of bodies will take to the end of the year. Some survivors upset there haven't been any arrests yet (understandable but naive imo - this is not going to be a speedy investigation).

A contractor which the Evening Standard says was responsible for fire alarms at Grenfell Tower is reportedly being investigated for fraud. Lakehouse has been accused of installing defective safety equipment in hundreds of London properties, but the company denies any wrongdoing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40502495

 

[gregjrichards]

Police investigating the Grenfell Tower disaster say they have made “87 recoveries” but stressed “the catastrophic damage” inside means “that is not 87 people”.

Most survivors displaced from Grenfell Tower and Walk are still living in hotels three weeks after the deadly blaze as the Government attempts to find them suitable accommodation.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...ic_damage_means_death_toll_remains_uncertain/

 

[Jackalyn]

If you see the building, as I have after the gospel benefit concert held at Latimer Road you can see why finding bodies would be difficult. My memory is of a completely burned out shell of a tall building. I found it hard to see that anything much would be left inside at all.

It was so sad visiting the memorial and talking to some of the people there. It actually felt worse to than visiting Ground Zero. That is the only comparison I can make. (I visited as I was in the US soon after and my host took me.)

It is quite clear the authorities are not doing enough for the people who have suffered. Some of the accommodation offered has been an insult to the survivors. It is not just about finding a home it is about trying to remain in a community where you have roots and have just had the roots torn out from under your feet. Moving too far afield would mean losing support networks, schools and possibly jobs for people in a state of shock, trauma and grief that is not going to disappear overnight. A lot will still be looking for family that is probably no longer alive and who could not hope against hope.

It is the local community that has been at the front line not any organisation. Trust in authority has been seriously eroded anyway.

As for corrupt, cost cutting councils.....words fail me......why were they, anyway, told to go for the cheapest and not the safest options as a legal requirement? This is a scenario constantly repeated where public buildings and buildings that house poorer people are concerned.

Just now I think I am living in a different country to the one I thought I lived in. Britain is not great.

 

[Jackalyn]

It is not as simple as that on a low income with nowhere else to go. That is going to be the reality for a lot of people. What do you do? Go and camp with several children and maybe pets in the street?

 

[Jackalyn]

If you were a victim the last thing you would want is someone to be biased. There are always other choices and remember that the child abuse inquiries include cover up so need to have those leading them beyond reproach so the outcome can be trusted.

 

[gregjrichards]

"A building neat Grenfell Tower is said to have been evacuated due to 'fire safety' concerns.

North Kensington Law Centre, in the basement of one of the 'finger' blocks surrounding the charred tower, was evacuated by police this afternoon.

Around 50 residents were gathered outside the blocks on Hurstway Walk and Testerton Walk and did not seem to know what was going on."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ilding-partially-evacuated.html#ixzz4ly809yiD

 

[MelmothTheLost]

There is a claim that the fridge which was the source of the fire was being used to store the highly unstable explosive TATP.

http://www.m2voice.com/british-judge-grenfell-tower-fire-caused-isis-bomb-media-blackout/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

The media source reporting the claim does not look exactly credible, but it's interesting nonetheless - not least because there doesn't seem to be a real explanation for the fridge catching fire (it's not a known problem with Hotpoint fridges and no recall has been put in place for the model concerned) and the Ethiopian man who had been living in the flat where the fire started has done a runner.

 

[MelmothTheLost]

There is a claim that the fridge which was the source of the fire was being used to store the highly unstable explosive TATP.

..... the Ethiopian man who had been living in the flat where the fire started has done a runner.

Just thinking about this, does anyone else recall that in the immediate aftermath of the fire, ISIS sources in the Middle East were celebrating it as an attack on the UK?

That was preumably before it emerged that a very high percentage of those living there were Muslims, many of them relatively recent immigrants.