GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[enqueteur]

Was the cat trapped in the flat from Friday through to Sunday evening?
What kind of lock was on the flat door?

Those two things were discussed way back (maybe in thread 6 or 7?). We can only speculate about the cat because GR did not mention him. Re the door: because there were yale and mortice locks on the front door, most of us believed the door would automatically lock when shut. That's my recall anyhow.

 

[otto]

Those two things were discussed way back (maybe in thread 6 or 7?). We can only speculate about the cat because GR did not mention him. Re the door: because there were yale and mortice locks on the front door, most of us believed the door would automatically lock when shut. That's my recall anyhow.

"Then when I arrived home it was obvious our cat had been left on his own and was going mad. I waited up for her until about midnight and then when she didn’t return I started to get really worried."

Ref: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ates-sobs-I-want-Christmas.html#ixzz1CG8y6yMz

 

[enqueteur]

Abduction theory:
Both of JY's parents said that after visiting her flat they believed she had been abducted.
On January 2, 2011 there was a publsihed article here stating that detectives were pursuing the theory that she has been targeted whilst having drinks with her chums at the pub, stalked, and followed home.
This is a very plausible scenario, that the perp followed her home on foot or in a car. What happened subsequently I'm not sure.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

RE: ROBIN HOOD




If the body was dumped at night by car did the guilty person return and use the footpath cycle track and cover her with leaves making her hard to see and then the snow came. I'd be curious to know if the walkers dog did rumage about and uncover her.

Good point, I had also speculated that she was placed or hidden in shallow area in the woods and then perp came back by bike with the intention of placing her over the fence and into the quarry... he got disturbed and she was dropped by the boulder and he took off at lightnning speed. The bike could have been stolen or 'taken' from a familiar person on Cannynge rd with a scheme to point the finger... (some kind of Forensic Meddling) anything is possible but it does appear to me that the culprit was disturbed from carrying out his plan in full. The true perp could have access to bike locks, keys etc it he lived in same building?????

 

[enqueteur]

"Then when I arrived home it was obvious our cat had been left on his own and was going mad.

Yes, but he didn't state whether the cat had been locked in a room, that's what I meant (sorry, didn't make myself clear). I was only responding to that question, because it's been on my mind from the start, and would perhaps point to the perp having been in the flat had it been the case.

 

[otto]

The time at which Joanna was placed by the quarry is obviously a very important point. Media has reported that she was snow covered and covered with leaves, but there is speculation that she was not covered at all. We do know that per reports she was frozen solid to the ground. I've been trying to remember when I've encountered something frozed in the snow, and can't get a clear memory. I've considered doing an experiment, as the temps overnight tonight will drop to just below zero and it will snow, but I can't think of anything that would be frozen solid in the morning if I put it in the snow this evening. Any suggestions? I'll do an experiment and photograph the results to see whether something that is already freezing temp, versus something room temp, freezes to the ground. I'm not willing to sacrifice any of my dogs, but what about a grapefruit - one that is outside all day and then put in the snow, and one that comes from a warm environment and then put in the snow.

It seems to me that if Joanna was frozen solid when she was put on frozen ground, she would not freeze to the ground. My guess is that she would be frozen on top of something else that was frozen, and she would easily move on that frozen surface. On the other hand, if she was body temperature when she was placed on the frozen ground, and her body slowly cooled to freezing temperature, then it seems more likely that she would be frozen to the ground. That is, her body temperature would melt or warm the area below her, and then as her body temperature fell below freezing, the warmed area below her would cool with her and then she would be frozen to the ground.

If I'm correct, then this would mean that she was put where she was found shortly after she diied.

Although we don't have a true description of injuries, by all accounts she was strangled and had three partial DNA samples on her body. If that is the extent of injuries and evidence, I doubt that she was kept alive in a third location. If she was kept in a third location, in a duffel bag, but not alive, she would have had to be kept at above freezing temperatures to freeze solidly to the ground ... so not in the back of a car.

Given what we know, and based on having had things both frozen and not frozen in the snow, I would conclude that she was placed near the quarry either shortly after she died, or shortly after leaving a room temperature environment.

 

[otto]

Yes, but he didn't state whether the cat had been locked in a room, that's what I meant (sorry, didn't make myself clear). I was only responding to that question, because it's been on my mind from the start, and would perhaps point to the perp having been in the flat had it been the case.

True. I think it was speculation that the cat was in a room to go along with the theory that GR did it. I don't know much about cats except that they sometimes hide when presented with new people. It's quite possible that if Joanna was in the flat when she was attacked, the cat hid.

 

[otto]

Also a few reports said her body was found in a ditch at the roadside.

My understanding is that she was on a verge, also known as a ditch. From looking at images of the road along the quarry entrance, I think what is meant is that she was found very close to the road but in a place where the ground is slightly depressed. It's possible that the ground where she was found was a foot lower than the road. The ground cover alongside the road is weeds and plants that could be about 1' in height, which may be all that was necessary to obscure her.

 

[otto]

RE: ROBIN HOOD




If the body was dumped at night by car did the guilty person return and use the footpath cycle track and cover her with leaves making her hard to see and then the snow came. I'd be curious to know if the walkers dog did rumage about and uncover her.

Good point, I had also speculated that she was placed or hidden in shallow area in the woods and then perp came back by bike with the intention of placing her over the fence and into the quarry... he got disturbed and she was dropped by the boulder and he took off at lightnning speed. The bike could have been stolen or 'taken' from a familiar person on Cannynge rd with a scheme to point the finger... (some kind of Forensic Meddling) anything is possible but it does appear to me that the culprit was disturbed from carrying out his plan in full. The true perp could have access to bike locks, keys etc it he lived in same building?????

Early on it was suggested that she was placed carelessly, or quickly, by the quarry at night by someone that may not be completely familiar with the area ... based on the fact that she did not appear to be well hidden. On the other hand, she could have been in that location since Dec 18, making her indeed very well hidden.

 

[Phillb]

The ground cover alongside the road is weeds and plants that could be about 1' in height, which may be all that was necessary to obscure her.

Have you noticed how all the Summer vegetation, and long grass dies off over Winter? 3 foot tall Summer weeds are non existent during Winter. It all goes brown in the Autumn, keels over and rots during the Winter months. Hard frosts just wipe it out and it goes flat. You wouldn't find any form of growing vegetation along Longwood Lane at this time of year. Just stark bare branches e.t.c. Take a walk through the woods in Summer, then in Winter for comparison. You can see so much further in Winter.

A good indication of the annual growth cycle, and die back is the new Spring shoots of the Dafodils springing up.

Durnford Quarry entrance January 2011.

They didn't use the winch because she was so frozen to the ground it was impossible to lift her. They used the winch as a way not to disturb evidence, it's a very delicate thing. Not one you want several men stood around the body pulling at it. She wasn't entombed in some great block of Ice as some reports would have you believe.

JMO.

 

[Robin Hood]

I think we had some photographs posted where there was a telegraph pole of sorts, next to a large tree. If Jo was left there she could have been covered with the previous summers leaves and leaf mould. Just a thought.

 

[Redgoblin]

I just don't understand the deposition site as the side of the entrance to the quarry would be quite visible to workers of said quarry, even in leaf litter, unless he built a trench first (which I doubt very much) its almost as if the killer is being too careful, trying to make out its one of the quarry workers perhaps?

That or he is trying to say look I can do this and do it wherever I like, like he's being bold.

You only have to walk across the road from the entrance and the bike path has a much covered area to place a body and it could have given the killer time to be with the body alone, he could have buried her and her not being found.

 

[moshimoshi]

They arrested C/J, but did'nt charge him with murder, V/T has been charged with murder, they must have enough evidence to stand up in court and win the case, or they are wasting public money.

I would like to know what evidence they have, I don't think we are going to get much more now until the trial.

I read that in the UK around 20% of prisoners on remand (suspects not allowed bail prior to trial) are acquitted. That may happen at trial or by case abandoned before trial.

The CPS (prosecution service) consider cost and public interest as well as evidence. Provided they can at least mount a case I imagine it's always in the public interest to bring serious crimes to court. Who knows, perhaps the evidence is overwhelming. But equally it could simply be that the defendant hasn't been able to defeat the evidence in police interviews. In public cross-examination he may be able to. In a system of arrest-charge-trial, you would expect him to be able to some of the time, or there'd be no point in a trial.

I guess it's like any other kind of test, say vehicle safety. If you run a car at a wall at 20 mph it may be relatively undamaged. If you repeat the exercise at 50 mph it could be a different story.

 

[conundrum]

Agree, it was to contain/retain evidence that this approach taken.

 

[veggiefan]

I just don't understand the deposition site as the side of the entrance to the quarry would be quite visible to workers of said quarry, even in leaf litter, unless he built a trench first (which I doubt very much) its almost as if the killer is being too careful, trying to make out its one of the quarry workers perhaps?

I think that the murderer may have intended to throw the body into the quarry (leaving her door keys at home would be a good way of suggesting suicide). But he or she had not reckoned on the gates being closed. With no "Plan B" to fall back on, the body was dumped as quickly as possible.

My own feeling is that this could have happened before the 2am snowfall on the morning of the 18th, which was much heavier to the south of Bristol than in the city itself (remember that the airport, to the south, had to be closed because of the snow, and almost all south-going bus services were cancelled).

The next morning, the guilty party drives past the site several times to ensure that the body is not too obvious. Further snow ensures that there is just a snow-covered bump which could be almost anything.

Although the thaw didn't set in properly until after 25th December, photos show that the area concerned was in direct sunlight by Christmas day, which (despite very cold temperatures) was enough to reveal the evidence.

 

[Phillb]

(remember that the airport, to the south, had to be closed because of the snow, and almost all south-going bus services were cancelled).

The closed airport, cancelled buses (Not in Bristol, but yes in nearby Bath) and postponed football matches was due to the icy, and slippy conditions on the roads, and footpaths on the 18th. Not the depth of snow itself, there was an inch dusting in Bristol and surrounding areas. It plays a big factor regarding covering a body, or not covering a body IMO.

 

[notsure]

Those two things were discussed way back (maybe in thread 6 or 7?). We can only speculate about the cat because GR did not mention him. Re the door: because there were yale and mortice locks on the front door, most of us believed the door would automatically lock when shut. That's my recall anyhow.

Sorry, I didn't see the previous discussion. I was thinking about what I do when I go into my house. I put the key into the inner lock and lock it, and then leave the key there. If I go out, I take the key with me, so that I can get back in. I was thinking that if she left her flat to go to someone else's, she would have her key with her, in her pocket.

Would I answer the door at night if I wasn't expecting anyone? No, I would ignore it. But I would open the door to let the cat in.

The neighbours, if at home, would surely have heard a yowling cat?

 

[wfgodot]

Agree, it was to contain/retain evidence that this approach taken.

Welcome to WS, conundrum. And to its best thread.

 

[angel10510]

Well as far as I can make out this is a crime of passion - a one off - a crazed killer implies someone crazy does it not? Someone who will kill again. I dont think many people with a phd kill - remind me of any if you know better - anyway my point was that people who write poison pen letters are rarely the perps.

The obvious one that comes to mind is Amy Bishop, who shot up a faculty meeting last year in Alabama. That already is an exception, though, as mass shootings are not commonplace. I also recall a couple of others who murdered their wives though names escape me.

But when it comes down to it, people with PhDs are just like everyone else. They can be loving, devoted, generous, committed, selfless, hard-working, and caring. Or they can be erratic, spontaneous, passionate, self-interested, calculating, manipulative, envious, cunning, angry, or bitter. There isn't necessarily a clear correlation with level of intelligence either. Clearly you have to be bright, but pursuing and completing a PhD generally requires years of stamina and determination, often loss of contact with friends and family, little pay, and an uncertain future. There's a lot of sacrifice and risk involved.

 

[wfgodot]

Once again, a short break in the narrative to remind posters of the "other" Yeates thread:

Media and Timeline Info *NO DISCUSSION* UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol


If you're searching for something (possibly for the dozenth time) important to the case, please also post that link on the thread above, when found; or, if you have another certain something from the media, or from earlier WS Yeates threads, bookmarked, please add that too.

Salem started the thread, and enzeder has supplied several links for us there; also, whitedove has attached her case timeline - all quite helpful to have located in a specific place. Thanks!