GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #11

[enqueteur]

The neighbours, if at home, would surely have heard a yowling cat?

Maybe B was howling, maybe he wasn't, but if he was, none of the inhabitants of that house would say so: they seem to think that loose lips sink ships.

Thanks to the posters refreshing our memory with where the body has found.
Got me thinking again.

Our NUA is employed by one of the top engineering companies in the UK and internationally, right? I should think even the interview process is rigorous with many brilliant applicants vying for a job.

So here we have a bright PHDer, an analyst and a strategist; someone who can conceptualise 3D drawings in seconds, and he chose a verge outside of a quarry to leave the body?

Does that make sense to anyone?

 

[Lynn R]

I have to say that I registered on this site to see more indepth information on Jo's case. The most chilling thing about all this is the mountain of missing or located cases on here. There are hundreds of them. That's what is scary imo !

I was referring to cases where the perp taunted the police with letters etc. (as opposed to a hoaxer)

Not unsolved cases

 

[notsure]

Maybe B was howling, maybe he wasn't, but if he was, none of the inhabitants of that house would say so: they seem to think that loose lips sink ships.

Thanks to the posters refreshing our memory with where the body has found.
Got me thinking again.

Our NUA is employed by one of the top engineering companies in the UK and internationally, right? I should think even the interview process is rigorous with many brilliant applicants vying for a job.

So here we have a bright PHDer, an analyst and a strategist; someone who can conceptualise 3D drawings in seconds, and he chose a verge outside of a quarry to leave the body?

Does that make sense to anyone?

I think whoever did it was in a panic and not thinking straight. Even brilliant minds can freeze in a crisis, and there can't be any situations more panic-inducing than this. I often wonder why the killer didn't put her boots and jacket on, so that at least it could look as if she had left the flat in a car with someone rather than dying in the building. Again, panic could be the explanation. It suggests an unpremeditated murder, IMO.

 

[whiterum]

The neighbours, if at home, would surely have heard a yowling cat?

You would also think they would have heard a girl screaming "Help me " from the same block. They must all be totally deaf.

 

[otto]

I just don't understand the deposition site as the side of the entrance to the quarry would be quite visible to workers of said quarry, even in leaf litter, unless he built a trench first (which I doubt very much) its almost as if the killer is being too careful, trying to make out its one of the quarry workers perhaps?

That or he is trying to say look I can do this and do it wherever I like, like he's being bold.

You only have to walk across the road from the entrance and the bike path has a much covered area to place a body and it could have given the killer time to be with the body alone, he could have buried her and her not being found.

That's an interesting point. As an architectural programmer, not only would VT be an expert and analyzing how to optimize work flow, but part of that study is also about dictating behaviors, or organizing tasks and activities so as to ensure a particular outcome. Industrial design has similar objectives, and may provides a better example. Computer interfaces should be designed in such a way that the interface leads people to make certain choices and arrive at certain pieces of information first, second and so on. VT would have been good at doing this on a large scale with people in environments. Placing the body outside the quarry could indeed be an attempt to point fingers at quarry employees ... and leaving the body exposed at the entrance could be viewed as an over-done attempt to relate the murder to quarry employees.

Something that completely contradicts an architect committing a random, violent murder is that architects and designers typically have strong philosophical beliefs related to improving the quality of life.

 

[Lynn R]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...ent-tabak-feels-safe-in-jail-115875-22878251/

Not sure if this has been posted. But UNLESS the mirror are blatantly lying it seems that the GF is standing by her man.

 

[enqueteur]

I think whoever did it was in a panic and not thinking straight. Even brilliant minds can freeze in a crisis, and there can't be any situations more panic-inducing than this. I often wonder why the killer didn't put her boots and jacket on, so that at least it could look as if she had left the flat in a car with someone rather than dying in the building. Again, panic could be the explanation.

Point taken, however given his credentials, he'd be equally capable of improvising well under pressure.

It suggests an unpremeditated murder, IMO.

Yes.

 

[otto]

Have you noticed how all the Summer vegetation, and long grass dies off over Winter? 3 foot tall Summer weeds are non existent during Winter. It all goes brown in the Autumn, keels over and rots during the Winter months. Hard frosts just wipe it out and it goes flat. You wouldn't find any form of growing vegetation along Longwood Lane at this time of year. Just stark bare branches e.t.c. Take a walk through the woods in Summer, then in Winter for comparison. You can see so much further in Winter.

A good indication of the annual growth cycle, and die back is the new Spring shoots of the Dafodils springing up.

Durnford Quarry entrance January 2011.

They didn't use the winch because she was so frozen to the ground it was impossible to lift her. They used the winch as a way not to disturb evidence, it's a very delicate thing. Not one you want several men stood around the body pulling at it. She wasn't entombed in some great block of Ice as some reports would have you believe.

JMO.

If I could, I would have a look just to see for myself what is possible, but I agree that winter decay wouldn't provide much cover without some effort.

 

[Lynn R]

It seems its not just us that have noticed the press' inaccurate reporting


http://www.anorak.co.uk/271442/medi...s-uncertain-chin-and-paul-vermeij-reacts.html

 

[Deckard]

I think whoever did it was in a panic and not thinking straight. Even brilliant minds can freeze in a crisis, and there can't be any situations more panic-inducing than this. I often wonder why the killer didn't put her boots and jacket on, so that at least it could look as if she had left the flat in a car with someone rather than dying in the building. Again, panic could be the explanation. It suggests an unpremeditated murder, IMO.

I think this is a key piece of evidence. No boots. Why was Jo moved with no boots ?

The killer doesn't care that he is moving the body from the flat with no boots on. Why doesn't he care ? It doesn't make sense does it ?

If he is so scared after committing an unpremeditated murder, why move the body at all ? Just get yourself out of there. So what if you live next door. See no evil, hear no evil. Imagine the perp's state of mind in this scenario. Five minutes ago he was just a regular guy now he is a killer ! Think fast. Do a runner or compound your risk by moving the body. That is some choice to make.

If being with the body itself is a prize, Jo had no boots on because the murder happened to take place when she hadn't any on. No signs of a struggle on the body. Jo is found with presumably the perp's saliva DNA on her breasts, stomach and jeans. No struggle means she was willing or ... the perp added the DNA at a safe location (to him) post mortum imo

 

[Deckard]

I was referring to cases where the perp taunted the police with letters etc. (as opposed to a hoaxer)

Not unsolved cases

Michael Sams was very fond of writing to the police, as was the ex CID officer caught for putting razor blades and caustic soda in baby food.

 

[notsure]

I think this is a key piece of evidence. No boots. Why was Jo moved with no boots ?

The killer doesn't care that he is moving the body from the flat with no boots on. Why doesn't he care ? It doesn't make sense does it ?

If he is so scared after committing an unpremeditated murder, why move the body at all ? Just get yourself out of there. So what if you live next door. See no evil, hear no evil. Imagine the perp's state of mind in this scenario. Five minutes ago he was just a regular guy now he is a killer ! Think fast. Do a runner or compound your risk by moving the body. That is some choice to make.

If being with the body itself is a prize, Jo had no boots on because the murder happened to take place when she hadn't any on. No signs of a struggle on the body. Jo is found with presumably the perp's saliva DNA on her breasts, stomach and jeans. No struggle means she was willing or ... the perp added the DNA at a safe location (to him) post mortum imo

Or what if she's gone to his flat without her boots (lured out maybe) and the door has locked behind her. He can't go in there to get her things... but that still doesn't explain the missing pizza.

 

[otto]

I think this is a key piece of evidence. No boots. Why was Jo moved with no boots ?

The killer doesn't care that he is moving the body from the flat with no boots on. Why doesn't he care ? It doesn't make sense does it ?

If he is so scared after committing an unpremeditated murder, why move the body at all ? Just get yourself out of there. So what if you live next door. See no evil, hear no evil. Imagine the perp's state of mind in this scenario. Five minutes ago he was just a regular guy now he is a killer ! Think fast. Do a runner or compound your risk by moving the body. That is some choice to make.

If being with the body itself is a prize, Jo had no boots on because the murder happened to take place when she hadn't any on. No signs of a struggle on the body. Jo is found with presumably the perp's saliva DNA on her breasts, stomach and jeans. No struggle means she was willing or ... the perp added the DNA at a safe location (to him) post mortum imo

Joanna was in a solid, committed relationship. Until something suggests otherwise, I'm going to assume that she was not fooling around with anyone outside the relationship. Since she was found without her coat, boots, and other personal belongings, I'm assuming that she was not wearing coat and boots when attacked, and that she was not out of the flat and in need of her keys. That suggests that she was attacked in her flat.

When the boyfriend was cleared, the fact that it appeared that she was attacked in the flat, and then taken away from the flat, was something that I had trouble understanding. Spouses or companions that murder have been known to take a body away from home to delay discovery of the body, and confuse the identification of the crime scene ... stranger perps don't do that. Since the boyfriend was cleared, it made no sense that she was taken away from the scene unless she was taken away alive, OR she was killed at home, the murderer lived very close and wanted to take the investigation away from home.

If she was taken away alive, given that we have not heard of injuries other than strangulation, it seems that she struggled very little. That doesn't make sense. The last possibility is that she was attacked and murdered in her flat, and taken to the quarry - where she was left in plain view; again something that is usual if trying to hide a crime.

I wonder if they had a spare key around the entrance in the event they locked themselves out ...

 

[notsure]

Another possibility: he kills her in her flat, panics, takes the body out, pulls the door shut behind him. Later realises he should have put her boots and coat on, but it's too late - he can't get back in.

 

[Jamie737]

What's the likely evidence the police have to make this charge?

It can't just be lack of an alibi or being in the same building! These days, wouldn't they have to have DNA evidence or CCTV or witness reports? I'm stumped as to what they can have to make this charge of murder, which they clearly didn't have a few weeks ago.

And what the Dutch papers say is that the evidence is not watertight.

 

[Lynn R]

Michael Sams was very fond of writing to the police, as was the ex CID officer caught for putting razor blades and caustic soda in baby food.

Ok without picking this whole point to bits, wasnt the subject of Sam's letters to extort money from the police? Not to taunt them as I originally referred to in response to a post about someone sending the Ram pub a pizza box and a letter. I think it was cerebral. He wondered why they police hadnt released its content. I responded it was highly unlikely that it had anything to do with the perp etc etc etc etc

Never heard of the CID officer so can't comment and a quick google didn't throw up much except your post

 

[bees]

You would also think they would have heard a girl screaming "Help me " from the same block. They must all be totally deaf.

Yes it's strange that more people didn't hear something (although they might have and also reported it.) Having said that, it was a cold night so windows would be shut and if people had TVs on, they could easily have missed the brief noises outside.

Here are some reports about the screams:

A resident living in the building directly behind 44 Canynge Road has told police he heard a woman screaming ‘Help me’ on the night Miss Yeates went missing.
He heard the cries from his bedroom, which looks on to the ground-floor flats which are now screened with tarpaulin while forensic experts continue to examine them.
The neighbour reported the incident to police before Christmas, when Miss Yeates was still being treated as a missing person. He was interviewed again after a murder inquiry began.
He said: ‘I was in my bedroom with the blind down when I heard someone scream “Help me” in a loud, high-pitched voice.’
The description of the cry follows reports from a woman at a party in a house opposite of two loud screams at around 9pm on December 17, shortly after Miss Yeates is believed to have arrived home.
A pedestrian passing Canynge Road also heard screams. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ct-arrested-sobbing-tip-anonymous-caller.html

The "help me" witness is reported in the Daily Star as saying the words were loud but not a scream and he isn't completely sure which night he heard them. He says he went outside to investigate but saw nothing.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/173246/Jo-Yeates-My-guilt-over-her-death/

A second witness has told police they heard screams from the direction of Joanna Yeates’s flat on the night she went missing.
The cries were reported to officers while Miss Yeates was still a missing person, just a few days after she *disappeared on December 17.
It is believed the witness was walking down Miss Yeates’s road at the time.
A partygoer at a flat across the road from the 25-year-old’s home had already told detectives she heard loud screams – but put it down to festive high jinks.
Both witnesses are believed to have heard the screams around 9pm, less than 15 minutes after Miss Yeates is thought to have returned to her home on *Canynge Road in Bristol’s affluent Clifton area.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-unsolved-murder-Glenis-Carruthers-1974.html

Then there's the reported midnight scream:

... it has emerged that someone living in the same block as Miss Yeates, 25, has reported hearing a scream near midnight on the day she was last seen alive. Two other witnesses say they heard screams at 9pm.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ing-killer-might-take-DNA-from-thousands.html

 

[Deckard]

There is another thing that unsettles me about VT being in the frame.

It is very plausible for a co-located murderer to want to distance himself from the scene of the crime. I get that, it seems very logical.

Why did this logical Phd mind then think it was a good idea to attach his DNA to the body prior to dumping taking the crime right back to his doorstep?

 

[whitedove]

Maybe B was howling, maybe he wasn't, but if he was, none of the inhabitants of that house would say so: they seem to think that loose lips sink ships.

Thanks to the posters refreshing our memory with where the body has found.
Got me thinking again.

Our NUA is employed by one of the top engineering companies in the UK and internationally, right? I should think even the interview process is rigorous with many brilliant applicants vying for a job.

So here we have a bright PHDer, an analyst and a strategist; someone who can conceptualise 3D drawings in seconds, and he chose a verge outside of a quarry to leave the body?

Does that make sense to anyone?

As far as we know this man has a clean record, a good education, and a very good job, no one has said any bad things about him, he's not a violent man, so if he is guilty of this crime, it may have been an accident or whatever, but he is not used to murder, so he's just not thinking, he did know the road where the body was dumped as he use to cycle that way, there were marks on the wall where the perpetrator tried to lift the body over the wall where it would have been hidden maybe for a long time.

There may have been a car approaching and there was'nt time to finish the job and the body was left at the side of the road, it would then have been too risky to return as it might have been spotted and reported, so its possible this man was not very clever when he is stressed to the limit with this situation.

 

[Deckard]

Ok without picking this whole point to bits, wasnt the subject of Sam's letters to extort money from the police? Not to taunt them as I originally referred to in response to a post about someone sending the Ram pub a pizza box and a letter. I think it was cerebral. He wondered why they police hadnt released its content. I responded it was highly unlikely that it had anything to do with the perp etc etc etc etc

Never heard of the CID officer so can't comment and a quick google didn't throw up much except your post

I had a quick google and threw up this link http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_19981122/ai_n14483213/