GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #12

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Well, various websites indicate that CJ and PS have worked together in the locality on various projects over the years (Neighbourhood Watch and the Canynge Road Campaign Group) as well as being neighbours.

If you need more definitive proof, and doubt newspaper reports, then I think the only way to be certain would be to ask one of them!

No I understand this, but Cherwell I understand does not rely on newspapers
quote
I treat everything with caution unless it has come directly from police spokesmen or from witnesses.
I don't consider newspapers a reliable source, I'm afraid. Even less so today with 24 hour online editions: everything is done at speed with no time to check anything.
 
That's surprising, considering her father spent almost his entire career working as a lawyer in the USA and teaching at the Harvard Law School, before retiring to Cambridge. Are you sure you found the right Tanja E. Morson?

Yes, as sure as I can be. The E is for Elisabeth (sic) which seems to be the mother's name. There is also a registration in Hammersmith for a brother called Gunter, which I understand fits in too. So not much room for doubt, these are not common names. The mother's whereabouts are more important than the father's, for obvious reasons.

Nothing about 2am in that post, though.

No, but it was being reported in the press at that time that the arrest was at 2am, so people just put the two things together.
 
I think the police had to get an arrest as time was marching along and prior to all this there was the talk about all the old COLD CASES in the Bristol area, and I think they were not going to have another COLD CASE to deal with.

This has always been my greatest worry about the arrest of VT (quite apart from serious doubts that he has the profile of a killer, or a motive).

The sad fact is that A&S have been identified by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary as a "high to medium cost force compared to its peers, which employs slightly more police officers than its peer forces", but which then goes on to score poor results in comparison with other forces (3 on a scale of 4 in almost every category). In particular, HMIC cites "The number of serious sexual offences, including rape, that have been solved is below the average for peer forces".

A&S have 27 unsolved murders on their books, compared with the adjoining forces of Wiltshire (none at all), Gloucestershire (one) and Devon & Cornwall (7).

In addition, they've been criticised for significant public expenditure on high-profile cases that have failed in the courts, such as the acquittal of all nine men charged with the Bristol gangland shootings.

Add to that the fact that VT was charged on the day before a high-level review had to start due to the lack of progress in the case, and the scene is set for those at grass-roots level to come up with something, or face the prospect of the entire force being merged with one of its more successful neighbours.

Only time will tell, but if the case against VT collapses when it goes to court, it could well be the death-knell of A&S, given the government's wish to reduce the number of separate police forces we still have.
 
No I understand this, but Cherwell I understand does not rely on newspapers

No, I don't. Veggiefan did not cite newspapers as a source either. As s/he says, there are websites for organisations such as those mentioned, and these provide reputable sources for all sorts of things, as do council websites and the like.

Old-fashioned reporters would have checked their stories using sources like this, but they aren't given time now. Everyone expects a new development to be reported every hour.
 
Yes, as sure as I can be. The E is for Elisabeth (sic) which seems to be the mother's name. There is also a registration in Hammersmith for a brother called Gunter, which I understand fits in too. So not much room for doubt, these are not common names.

Ah, that must be the one. Presumably some reporter just assumed an American birth, and everyone else copied the same reference.

Even so, it sounds like they are quite a transatlantic family, so I wouldn't be surprised if TM went to America with VT, at least for part of the time. It would, at least, explain why Carynge Road residents hadn't seen her around for some time.
 
If CJ is prepared to testify that he told VT on the evening of the 17th December of the problems GR suffered in starting his car earlier that day, and that GR was away in Sheffield for the weekend, then that is not hearsay, it is evidence, because CJ is speaking from direct experience and not merely relaying gossip.

Ed Zachary!
A.k.a. exactly.
Precisely as per your comment in bold above (that I changed) ... as in: No Further adieu.

Furthermore ... *other neighbours* confirmed CJ's chat with VT. Next thing we hear, VT distances himself completely; then goes to Cambridgeshire ... back on 26th - moves to Ab Rd ... and slinks out of two 3 days after Jo was discovered? Calls a "family meeting and explai without the children" to discuss n HE'S BEING LOOKED AS ... in this tragedy?

Boom - s nabbed 2 weeks after returning; bail abandoned; is moved to THREE max security prisons and he's on suicide watch? What evidence had he learned during interrogations that may have caused his "life" to ebb away?

Just preposterous!
 
Interesting post veggiefan, but surely if this were the case and they were looking to 'frame' someone, CJ would have fitted in with that profile better, lived alone, access to flat at anytime, new GR was away had helped him start car etc.

I do feel it would have been easier to 'sew him up' if that was the case which makes me feel they must have some damning evidence on VT.
 
Presumably some reporter just assumed an American birth, and everyone else copied the same reference.

That's exactly it, and it's why I don't place much reliance in the press. One lazy error and it gets repeated wholesale by other lazy journalists.

It took me only a couple of minutes to check that birth reg (including double checking to make sure it was the right person). If the original reporter couldn't spare the time, there was no need to add the detail at all.
 
Hey there, veg. How are you today? Cool as a cucumber, lol?

We had a lovely vegetable casserole for lunch at the Wetlands Centre in Barnes. The Parsnips were pure perfection. Mmmm....

I have to say, I did find it uneasy reading that on his most professional documents of his career (i.e.: his PhD ...) he laments his love of his g/f for "finally" coming into his life.

Laments? Surely the 'final' reference is to the fact that she only became the g/f in the month in which the thesis was finished?

I think it's impossible to generalise on such matters. Although I had various infatuations over the years, I didn't meet the lovely Mrs Veg until I was 40 (considerably older than VT), by which time I was pretty much accepting a lifetime as a batchelor. I'd be quite prepared to describe her as "finally coming into my life". I just wish it had been a bit earlier!
 
Or there could be some connection to one of his cars, since the police seem to be holding on to it. VT was not charged with murder for nothing though, we might all be surprised to hear what they have on him. Most likely, there's evidence that could not possibly be planted. If he took Jo's life, destroying her family in the process, he deserves everything that's coming to him.

My thoughts too.
To take the life of a young Woman who had so much to live for, and JY's Family their lives will never be the same again, the pain and loss and and how they lost their Daughter will be with them forever.
 
Self preservation.

If VT ends up on the Sex Offenders Register his job, relationship with TM and status within the family circle are pretty badly compromised.

Were there any reports of a laptop being taken from Aberdeen Rd when the arrest news broke?

I think it would take more than a chink in a wall of a rented flat to end up on the sex offenders list Deckard. I mean how the heck would you prove who the person who created the hole was, and whether they'd actually peeked through it?

I'm not discounting a peep hole having been there (there's nowt so strange as folk as they say..) but I really struggle to see this as being the reason or catalyst as to why he may have killed her.
 
that would explain why forensics took p s car away then, because they were such good friends

They would also have noticed that it would be easy to gain access to the door of JY's flat from PS's house, without being seen from the other flats or the road.
 
Yes, as sure as I can be. The E is for Elisabeth (sic) which seems to be the mother's name. There is also a registration in Hammersmith for a brother called Gunter, which I understand fits in too. So not much room for doubt, these are not common names. The mother's whereabouts are more important than the father's, for obvious reasons.

Maybe the parents wanted the kids to have British or dual nationality so came over to the UK for the births. Is the mother British?
 
Maybe the parents wanted the kids to have British or dual nationality so came over to the UK for the births. Is the mother British?

I think that's a very likely explanation. Not sure about the mother's nationality - given the forenames there could well be a mainland European background.

he laments his love of his g/f for "finally" coming into his life. Rather telling for one deemed so astute, clever and intelligent. To me this indicates a haunting hole of insecurity or ... non-disclosed issues.

But then .... that's just my own wild speculation ... lol

It certainly is wild speculation, because what it actually says is

“Last but not least I want to thank my girlfriend Tanja Morson for her support in the last difficult month of my PhD. I am very happy she entered my life.”

It seems to me no more than an understated yet pleasing acknowledgement.
 
You only have to look on the web plenty out there about CC of A and Somerset
 
I think it would take more than a chink in a wall of a rented flat to end up on the sex offenders list Deckard. I mean how the heck would you prove who the person who created the hole was, and whether they'd actually peeked through it?

I'm not discounting a peep hole having been there (there's nowt so strange as folk as they say..) but I really struggle to see this as being the reason or catalyst as to why he may have killed her.

This is a really good question and one of the main reasons I think the crime was committed in flat 1.

Say JY made her way round to flat 1 after discovering the hole. After she burst in to satisfy her own need to see VT's side of the adjoining wall she may have discovered the camera, receiver maybe even the laptop in bedroom 2 of the setup. (Bedroom 2 adjoins both JY's bathroom and her bedroom). VT would be "bang to rights" in this scenario. Maybe she had poked at the micro camera from her side and discovered it that way.

Either way the cat is out of the bag. Pandora's box has been opened. A voyeur seeks to keep their victim at arm's length. What is their state of mind when the secret is out?

Even the less prolific voyeurs I have seen sentenced on a google search got 5 years on the register. Although rare, there are cases out there of fingered peeping tom's committing the ultimate act.

Who knows what digital data could have been stored on a laptop. There could be hours of footage that he did not want to see the light of day.

This is purely speculation but you have to ask yourself why would he have murdered a neighbour who he didn't even talk to? JY's father said they didn't know each other.

We know she was not sexually assaulted. We know she had no injuries visible apart from the abrasion to the neck. Doesn't sound like an interrupted rapist who found the time to take the body to Longwood Lane imo.
 
Originally Posted by PolkSaladAnnie View Post
he laments his love of his g/f for "finally" coming into his life. Rather telling for one deemed so astute, clever and intelligent. To me this indicates a haunting hole of insecurity or ... non-disclosed issues.

But then .... that's just my own wild speculation ... lol

I WOULD SAY YOU HAVE A VALID POINT THERE.
 
The sad fact is that A&S have been identified by Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary as a "high to medium cost force compared to its peers, which employs slightly more police officers than its peer forces", but which then goes on to score poor results in comparison with other forces (3 on a scale of 4 in almost every category). In particular, HMIC cites "The number of serious sexual offences, including rape, that have been solved is below the average for peer forces".

On the other hand;

"The force has traditionally been strong in investigating homicides and tackling major crime."

(http://www.hmic.gov.uk/PoliceReportCard/AvonandSomerset/Pages/ReportCard.aspx?BCUID=0&ForceID=1)

Just as well we're talking about a homicide here then. The CPS got convictions in 36 out of 38 homicide cases for A&SC in 2010. That's a conviction rate of almost 95%, which was significantly above the national average.

A&S have 27 unsolved murders on their books, compared with the adjoining forces of Wiltshire (none at all), Gloucestershire (one) and Devon & Cornwall (7).

According to Freedom of Information Act Request No 466/2010-1708, Devon & Cornwall actually had 12 unsolved murders outstanding between 1.1.60 and 31.12.10. The Avon and Somerset Constabulary consider that they have 23 unsolved murders, 4 of which actually predate 1960, so a true comparison would be 12 against 19. (And whilst CPS figured show that they prosecuted 38 A&SC homicide defendants in 2010, it prosecuted 21 D&CC defendants, so 19 versus 12 probably reflects nothing more than the relative incidence of that offence.)

I presume that these figures were taken from the FOIA request that the BBC made (See 'When the murder trail goes cold' - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8662635.stm). The trouble is that the different forces gave different answers; the Met only counted back as far as 1996, whilst Tayside Police went all the way back to 1886. Devon & Cornwall only went back to 1976 for the BBC, but gave a different answer when they were asked to go back to 1960. Thus the figures aren't necessarily comparable; the Gloucestershire figure of 1 unsolved murder is only since 2004; A&SC have 3 unsolved murders since 2004.

In any case one should note that in order to 'solve' a homicide all the police have to do is charge someone and get them to court. The JY murder will count as being solved the minute that the case of R v VT opens at Bristol Crown Court, irrespective of whatever verdict that may follow. (Perish the thought that police forces might simply charge someone simply to make their numbers look good.)

Also note that if A&SC had 27 unsolveds when the BBC asked the question early last year, but now have 23, it implies that they've cleared 4 in the past year. Not bad going that.

In addition, they've been criticised for significant public expenditure on high-profile cases that have failed in the courts, such as the acquittal of all nine men charged with the Bristol gangland shootings.

Well that case does date back to 2006; the allegation being that the nine men constituted a gang who were responsible both for the murder of two men shot outside the Spotlight nightclub in Croydon and for a failed drive-buy shooting in Bristol on the same night which nevertheless left two women seriously injured. Whatever criticisms were made of the failure to convict in this case were largely directed at the CPS, who were responsible for the decision to roll both cases into one, and the Met, who were responsible for the majority of the significant public expenditure incurred. (Meticulous paperwork apparently.)

In any event the fact that the odd motor vehicle does indeed get sprayed by machine gun fire on the streets of Bristol, does rather underline the fact that A&SC faces rather different challenges compared to some of its neighbouring forces. You don't get that sort of thing down in Redruth you know.


Add to that the fact that VT was charged on the day before a high-level review had to start due to the lack of progress in the case, and the scene is set for those at grass-roots level to come up with something, or face the prospect of the entire force being merged with one of its more successful neighbours.

Only time will tell, but if the case against VT collapses when it goes to court, it could well be the death-knell of A&S, given the government's wish to reduce the number of separate police forces we still have.

If the "case against VT collapses when it goes to court" then CPS will take the rap. It will be a solved murder as far as A&SC are concerned (see above).

The previous government had various plans to merge police authorities. These were abandoned in 2006, after what is usually referred to as 'widespread public opposition'. I'm not aware that the current government has any specific wish to promote police mergers for any reason other than the usual cost-saving/efficiency arguments. I would also very much doubt that the Home Office would take any particular view regarding A&SC simply because of just one homicide case, even if it is one that has generated acres of coverage in the tabloid press.
 
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