GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[edgedweller]

Not sure these flats have a communal area, do they? I know there is an area for post (not sure how I know that!) but JY's flat was self-contained, definitely (and presumably her post went through her door). Wonder if VT's flat had another entrance apart from the main door (round the back of the house it seems). I don't buy the cat theory, just because it was SO cold that week, that I doubt JY would've left her cat out all day (and certainly wouldn't have gone to the pub after work if she'd realised he was out). He was definitely in on Sunday when GR got home as he was apparently going mad having been unfed all weekend.

 

[Neurotripsy]

manslaughter my lily white @ss. :furious: how horrible! I liked it better when they said there were no injuries or sign of a struggle I'd hoped she went quickly and maybe too fast to know what was happening but CLEARLY that is not so.

I feel rather naïve for having believed that there wasn't a struggle... And agreed, I hoped she'd been completely caught by surprise (maybe from behind) so the whole thing was too quick for her to realise what was going on. I'm glad her parents weren't in court, can't imagine how they would feel having to hear those details again.

 

[aneurin]

True enough, but the evidence was overwhelming and the jury had to make a straight decision between his claim of not guilty or guilty. There is something of a sad tradition of murdering prostitutes, so the jury may have assumed a sexual/sadistic motive.

In this case, the prosecution have the difficult job of proving that it was murder rather than manslaughter, which won't be easy if they cannot establish a motive.

The evidence was slightly less than overwhelming in the case of the Ipswich Red Light Murders. There was no clear COD for two of the victims (so no actual 'proof' they had even been murdered), no murder scene was ever identified, there was no eyewitness evidence, nothing in fact other than lots of forensic evidence that showed that Steve Wright had been in contact with each of the five women shortly before they died. Wright's story was that he had indeed had sex with each of the women and that it was purely co-incidental that they had been killed shortly afterwards by somebody else. For reasons best known to themselves the jury appear not have believed this explanation and chose to convict.

The crucial point in the case of R v Tabak will be what VT himself has to say. What explanation will he provide regarding the events of the 17th December 2010 and what specific abnormality of mind or whatever, will his defence put forward as the justification for his lack of intent. If the jury believe that VT is telling the truth, and accept the explanation provided, they will accept the mansalughter plea. Otherwise they will convict.

 

[Redgoblin]

Not sure these flats have a communal area, do they? I know there is an area for post (not sure how I know that!) but JY's flat was self-contained, definitely (and presumably her post went through her door). Wonder if VT's flat had another entrance apart from the main door (round the back of the house it seems). I don't buy the cat theory, just because it was SO cold that week, that I doubt JY would've left her cat out all day (and certainly wouldn't have gone to the pub after work if she'd realised he was out). He was definitely in on Sunday when GR got home as he was apparently going mad having been unfed all weekend.

Communal area/hall which would be the main entrance to either flat. Post could have been in boxes in the hall or through doors to the flat?

I don't hold much with the cat thing either :twocents:

 

[Neurotripsy]

Tabak told chaplain 'i'm going to plead guilty for the crime I have done' asked if sorry he said 'yes'

More like "I'm going to plead guilty to save my own @ss!"

 

[Cherwell]

Not sure these flats have a communal area, do they? I know there is an area for post (not sure how I know that!) but JY's flat was self-contained, definitely (and presumably her post went through her door). Wonder if VT's flat had another entrance apart from the main door (round the back of the house it seems). I don't buy the cat theory, just because it was SO cold that week, that I doubt JY would've left her cat out all day (and certainly wouldn't have gone to the pub after work if she'd realised he was out). He was definitely in on Sunday when GR got home as he was apparently going mad having been unfed all weekend.

VT's flat is also self-contained and has a single entrance at the rear of the building, just a few steps from the parking area. Neither of the lower ground floor flats is accessible from the communal entrance hall.

Re the cat, he needn't have been out all day. GR had returned earlier. He would have let the cat out before he left for Sheffield. If it didn't come back in he probably wouldn't have worried because JY would have been coming in later.

 

[Clio]

Not sure these flats have a communal area, do they? I know there is an area for post (not sure how I know that!) but JY's flat was self-contained, definitely (and presumably her post went through her door). Wonder if VT's flat had another entrance apart from the main door (round the back of the house it seems). I don't buy the cat theory, just because it was SO cold that week, that I doubt JY would've left her cat out all day (and certainly wouldn't have gone to the pub after work if she'd realised he was out). He was definitely in on Sunday when GR got home as he was apparently going mad having been unfed all weekend.

The two "Ground Floor" Flats, Flat 1 and 2 each have separate private entrances. The entrance to Tabak's flat is round the back, close to the parking area.

The main entrance at the front left, where the communal post boxes are, serves the flats on the upper floors.

This was the subject of a lot of speculation early in the year about whether the door that got removed, i.e. Jo's door, could be a communal door to both Flats 1 and 2, however it turned out not to be the case (can't remember if the debate was on here or another forum)

Not sure if the cat is relevant at all but here's what has been tweeted from the trial.

"Joanna Yeates and her boyfriend had a cat called Bernard. Following Joanna's death Tabak told friends how cat would often visit his flat."

 

[Robin Hood]

Jury will also look at Percival Court, a property round the side of where #JoannaYeates lived.

 

[weeeva]

The thing that stands out today

1. Signs of struggle in hall way
2. Thud after the scream, Jo hitting the door
3. Killed shortly after arriving home, just after he checked his girlfriends emails.
4. Then the mention that someone drank the cider

Did he kill her as soon as she arrived home? Why?

One reason he could have had for killing Jo as soon as she got home is that she could have caught him in an embarrassing situation.
When CJ was arrested I did not believe for a minute that the attack was sexually motivated. The only thing I could think of was that Jo had caught him prowling around or actually in her house.
But then CJ would have a key. How could VT get in?
Let's hope we find out soon what he has to say about motive.

 

[Redgoblin]

Jurors sent home and tomorrow will walk her route home and visit her flat and where body was found.

Jury told to pay attention to view from Yeates' kitchen window. Defence says it was there Tabak & yeates first saw each other that night.

via Twitter https://twitter.com/#!/skymartinbrunt

 

[Cherwell]

Rupert Evelyn via Twitter
Jury told to pay attention to CCTV at Hophouse pub and how long it takes to walk from there to Canynge Rd

Sounds as though they are going to dispute the timeline. Do they have a witness at or near the Hophouse, I wonder. Will they contradict the priest who was apparently the last to see JY

 

[weeeva]

One guess: he was angry that his girlfriend had left him alone, and he transferred that anger to Jo. Perhaps it was some inner rage against young women in general, and Jo just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think this is very possible. Perhaps he has a major insecurity problem when it comes to woman.
Jealously really can drive some people mad.

 

[notsure]

Is it usual for someone to text their partner when the partner is out at a party, complaining about being bored? To me, that seems like something a teenager might do, not a mature 32 year old. It says a lot about his state of mind that evening: unable to amuse himself and wanting attention from his girlfriend even while she's supposed to be having a good time at a party. The texts show neediness, attention-seeking, selfishness at the very least. But I think it's more than that: I think he couldn't bear to think of her out at that party without him. Maybe he even suspected that she liked some bloke at work. That would also account for his interest in her work emails. At last he had found a girlfriend, but could he trust her? There was a rage building within him.

 

[Cherwell]

We don't know if he was like this all the time though. It would be interesting to know if this was typical of his texting habits. If not, it seems to have been a deliberate strategy to dissociate himself from the killing, to strengthen the impression that he had nothing to do with it. Very calculating if this is the case.

 

[weeeva]

Well .... it's just a thought prompted by this (Sorry, I know it's the Sun) :blush:


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ing-he-was-bored-after-killing-Jo-Yeates.html

Now some people are allergic to cats, so say TM is - and VT was angry to find the cat in their flat again. Grabs the cat, handling it roughly, and marches round to next door as soon as he sees JY has returned. She has a go at him for ill-treating her pet, he's already fuming and it all kicks off from there. Plausible.

Yes could be. Jo does not seem to be the type that would argue with neighbours, but when it comes to defending your pet, well that is a different story.
I, normally a quiet easy going type, had words with a neighbour who complained about my cat being at her rabbit hutch. She suggested I keep my cat indoors at all times. I kind of lost it, and said that a rabbit should not be caged up in a hutch anyway. Yes I know, not very vicious, but I was angry and the neighbour was seething. It turned out that it was not even my cat she had seen.
Now, if I had seen my neighbour being cruel to my cat that day, well I don't know what I would have done. So perhaps Jo faced up to him about her cat.
Poor Jo and her family and boyfriend.

 

[Sarahlou]

Thanks for all the updates guys. I don't post much but I'm following this case. I don't think we'll ever find out the true motive tbh. But the details so far have been worse than I imagined. Poor Joanna.

 

[Redgoblin]

He wrote: “Hi gorgeous I am not sure why I am at work. Maybe not just be at home.

“Missing you, hope you are able to do some work. I am not sure what, if I am, going to tell my colleagues. Don’t want to upset them too, its such a horrible thing to be thinking of.

“Maybe I’m just going to tell them that I’m not feeling okay which is somewhat the truth. Love you.”

Later that morning he emailed Miss Morson again and said: “I’m so tired I can’t really concentrate. Maybe its not too bad to have some distraction at work with being at home now I am not sure what to do. What do you think?

“Wish we could leave for Cambridge this evening and leave the mess behind. Missing you loads.”

Miss Morson replied: “I don’t feel funny about our home but I don’t want to walk home alone or be at home alone. If I think something bad had happened in that flat then I really want to move asap. What with the keys and stuff still there that sounds more like someone leaving suddenly. If she had gone out for drinks etc and something happend on the way home she would presumbly have her bag and keys, so there is hope she will return home all of a sudden.”

Tabak replied: “That I can imagine. I will make sure you are not home alone or have to walk alone. Let’s hope nothing bad happend and she is discovered healthy and well today/tomorrow. I was also thinking that if something bad happend, I don’t want to live there anymore. Too scary and we can always move in with Liz.”

The following day Miss Morson emailed Tabak saying she had been looking online for news of the police investigation.

She added: “I’m expecting the family to make a TV appeal that usually happens.”

Tabak replied, enclosing a link to a news website, and writing: “Creepy. So they really think she left home by herself? Maybe its linked to the headaches she had. Shall we try minimise talking about it tonight? It really overwhelms me today and I wouldn’t mind some distraction from it.”

Source: http://www.thisissomerset.co.uk/Emails-Vincent-Tabak-sent-discussing-Joanna/story-13529693-detail/story.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[weeeva]

There was something about the cat going in his flat - could that have happened that night and he brought the cat back to her, but was handling it roughly? and that sparked it all off?

Just thought of something else re the cat. VT text TM a couple of times before Jo got home. You would think he would have mentioned to TM that the cat was in the house again and how he managed to get it out. It is not always easy for a stranger to pick up a cat without being scratched. Of course he could have just chased it out or it ran out when he opened door.
Jeez my head is spinning with all these different scenarios.

 

[weeeva]

It's the wrong time of year to leave windows open. So I doubt the cat could have gotten into VT's flat.

There is no other way the cat can get into the building unless through the communal entrance into the hall and VT or someone else would have had to of let the cat in to do that. I suppose the cat if it was left in the hall could have crept in to VT's flat?

We don't even know if the Cat is that important other than the statement made by GR to the press mentioning the cat seemed agitated.

Does VT not have an entrance at the back of the building where the police had put up the tarpaulin?
Cats are very sneaky. My nieces cat disappeared and she had us all searching her area for hours. A neighbour saw the cat sitting on the inside window sill of another neighbours house. The neighbours had left for a holiday that morning. All the windows were closed. The only way the cat could have got in was by sneaking in the door unnoticed as the neighbours were leaving that morning. Luckily a key had been left with yet another neighbour.
The same cat did the same thing to yet another neighbour and only came running out when the neighbour returned from work.
Probably not important, but who knows.

 

[Cherwell]

The quote about TM said that she had asked GR to remove the cat, so I wondered if she might be allergic to cats. It's quite a common thing. But as you say, maybe she was afraid of being scratched. Presumably this happened while VT was away in the US.

Given that he's not denying he killed her, I would have thought a row over the cat would be a less damaging explanation than some of the other theories that have been put out! Most people could identify with a sudden loss of temper on both sides which escalated rapidly. Intrigued to see what his defence will actually be.