GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

[veggiefan]

All in all, I reckon that the prosecution have done a pretty good job today, especially given the relative lack of hard evidence in the case.

VT seems to me to have come across as devious, inconsistent and concerned only with saving his own skin.

 

[Frodo]

I notice that he said today words to the effect that the flat was well insulated from sounds from other flats. Yet I remember reading a report some time ago that Tanja said that Joanna and Greg weren't as noisy as the previous tenants of their flat.

Of course the prosecution should know if there was sound penetration and problems with noise from previous tenants and if so, will know if he is saying that to cover himself in case anyone thinks he could have heard Joanna arriving home and that's when he went around to her flat.

I have been thinking about that statement!!

 

[Fluttershy]

Funny he can be so sure about that when there's so much else he can't remember, innit.

Reminds me of the line from Chicago

"I passed out completely. I can't remember a thing......Only that I didn't do it."

 

[Sammyme]

skynewsgatherer

Whilst at work Tabak begins to look up decomposition websites. Tabak agrees when Mr Lickley says he hoped "it would all go away."

"You were playing her along, weren't you?" says Mr Lickley talking about emails with Tanja. "Yes" says Tabak.

Interesting choice of words by Mr Lickley: "it would all go away", considering.

Is this also a hint of a suggestion from Mr Lickley along the lines of:

Just as you are playing the jury along now?

 

[FiestyFairy]

There is no mention or rather no recollection of a struggle or any fight. He had difficulty in lifting her to the car and he had to try twice.

If he wasn't exhausted from the struggle why did the 6' 4" tall man, who runs and cycles have any difficulty in lifting a 50 kg woman?

 

[bijoux]

I think your argument is definitive Pisces : VT was not in the flat when Joanna got home because he had no keys and the door was locked.

Either he was feeling randy, heard from CJ that she was to be alone, and rang the doorbell, or his story that she spontaneously invited him in is true.

I agree with all of that.

But even if the attack was not premeditated, the death-dealing act was the culmination of a fight and he cannot have failed to realise before or during the strangulation that it was highly liable to result in her death or very serious injury. Everything else is just window-dressing.

Yes, one would think a man of his intellect would realise his assault could result in serious injury, but if we are to believe his testimony, he says he was only trying to stop her from screaming, not meaning to harm her.

If his testimony is total fabrication, LE is not offering anything more convincing which leads each of us to speculate on other possibilities and how can you draw a reasonable conclusion that way?

Did he realise his assault could kill her, did he intend to kill her?

I don't conclusively think so, yet.

*

No DNA on the knickers in the hall then?
No DNA in VT's flat?
I'm surprised LE couldn't come up with more DNA evidence. Is there any reason they may have held it back?

 

[Luna15]

I know this is totally irrelevant, but there I was deciding to take a break from this... decide to watch Deal or No Deal on catchup and there is Noel Edmunds in Asda Bedminster surprising a checkout girl who is now playing the game live - they are filming live from the store that we saw VT in today on CCTV...

probably over - reacting but I think it's in poor taste considering that Jo's mums last stay with her was because she was in the audience of this show .....

sorry just wanted to share

 

[stmarysmead]

"The cat went into places where it shouldn't go. A bit like me."

That almost sounds like what Tabak might have said to Jo...if she found him in her flat...and he was trying to make light of it.

 

[konformation]

There is no mention or rather no recollection of a struggle or any fight. He had difficulty in lifting her to the car and he had to try twice.

If he wasn't exhausted from the struggle why did the 6' 4" tall man, who runs and cycles have any difficulty in lifting a 50 kg woman?

I agree with most of this. A physicially fit man (VT) with adrenalin coursing through his veins, plus a rest from the struggle while driving in his car, should have no problem lifting a 50-60kg woman over a wall - even more chance when said person is dead and doesn't complain of being 'knocked around or scratched'

It could be that he was so depressed at what he'd done that the strength had simply left him and he was a spent force - i can't think of other reasons why he wouldn't persevere with the wall.

for me, his flat-recollection is pure invention.

 

[wfgodot]

"The cat went into places where it shouldn't go. A bit like me."

That almost sounds like what Tabak might have said to Jo...if she found him in her flat...and he was trying to make light of it.

Good catch on that. Easily sinister and definitely recognizable as a possible echo of that night.

 

[aneurin]

The "I dunno" and "I don't remember" has replaced "no comment". Even to the extent that he is saying he doesn't know to things his defense QC has said today

Exactly. It's the closest he can get to saying ' no comment' in open court without being held in contempt.

 

[veggiefan]

I agree with most of this. A physicially fit man (VT) with adrenalin coursing through his veins, plus a rest from the struggle while driving in his car, should have no problem lifting a 50-60kg woman over a wall - even more chance when said person is dead and doesn't complain of being 'knocked around or scratched'

To be fair, it was very slippery under foot.

 

[Nausicaa]

Yes, one would think a man of his intellect would realise his assault could result in serious injury, but if we are to believe his testimony, he says he was only trying to stop her from screaming, not meaning to harm her.

If his testimony is total fabrication, LE is not offering anything more convincing which leads each of us to speculate on other possibilities and how can you draw a reasonable conclusion that way?

Did he realise his assault could kill her, did he intend to kill her?

I don't conclusively think so, yet.

Everyone knows that strangulation tends to result in death and people who are not drugged or insane advert, when doing things that take a certain time, to the likelihood that their acts will produce their normal effects. Even if his primary conscious intention was to produce short-term silence, that does not excuse him from murder if he actually foresaw the likelihood that his act - aimed by him at producing silence - was likely also to produce death or very serious injury.

Further to the principle that normality is presumed unless disproved, the fact that VT's story clearly contains untruths and deliberate self-serving omissions entitles the jury to assume that he is lying when he makes the highly improbable claim that he failed even to advert in passing, before or during throttling, to the consequences his action in fact produced.

All that said, a great deal is going to depend on the judge's final instructions to the jury on the nature of the mens rea of murder and how to evaluate its presence. Does anyone know anything about the judge - whether he has a reputation as a toughie or a softie ?

 

[Sammyme]

There is no mention or rather no recollection of a struggle or any fight. He had difficulty in lifting her to the car and he had to try twice.

If he wasn't exhausted from the struggle why did the 6' 4" tall man, who runs and cycles have any difficulty in lifting a 50 kg woman?

He's very tall which isn't good for lifting. Running and cycling would develop strong leg muscles mainly (which would help of course) but not strong upper body.

 

[Clio]

BBC Points West are looking at how the trial is being reported in Holland if anyone is interested. On at 6:30pm

 

[konformation]

He's very tall which isn't good for lifting. Running and cycling would develop strong leg muscles mainly (which would help of course) but not strong upper body.

supposition!

he might be very strong, and his build suggests that he is not only tall but wide and solid. I don't accept the argument that upper body wouldn't be strong - certainly with conditions of fight or flight + adrenalin, he would be able to make that lift.

n.b. he also had salt from ASDA to make his lifting position easier.

 

[bijoux]

Further to the principle that normality is presumed unless disproved, the fact that VT's story clearly contains untruths and deliberate self-serving omissions...

Yes, his testimony was murky, vague and inconsistent.

NL was most effective in his questioning, which for a person in the witness box must be stressful and intimidating; to keep concentration and not have your words twisted, even when you are telling the truth can be challenging.
.

 

[Sammyme]

supposition!

he might be very strong, and his build suggests that he is not only tall but wide and solid. I don't accept the argument that upper body wouldn't be strong - certainly with conditions of fight or flight + adrenalin, he would be able to make that lift.

n.b. he also had salt from ASDA to make his lifting position easier.

What is the word supposition referring to?

Strawman. Try reading what I wrote before disagreeing with an "argument" that hasn't been made.

I haven't seen any evidence that he is wide and solid and has skill and ability to lift.

 

[Paulette]

Geez...The whole day of testimony is over before I even get up! West Coast, USA.

It appears Tanya was his 1st girlfriend. Vera strange. He has no experience of women. He's definitely not a normal man.

He thought Joanna was being flirty. His testimony doesn't make any sense. If she was flirting with him, why would she reject "a kiss"? Why would she scream at being kissed? Women just don't do that - they turn their heads or say "don't do that" - they don't scream!

 

[Cherwell]

he says he was only trying to stop her from screaming

Now where have I heard that one before? :waitasec: