She was dreading being left on her own for the first time, apparently. (Dreading is a strong word.) That's likely to be either because she was afraid of being on her own in the flat or she hated being apart from Greg or she was a person who in any case didn't like being alone. If she wanted to go to her best friend in Swansea, that could suggest that she didn't want to be alone in the flat because she was afraid. It certainly wouldn't imply that she felt safe in her flat. Texting her friends and wanting their company because she was afraid of being alone would be understandable. It doesn't follow that she would want the company of someone she didn't know. Her friends could probably shed light on how she would feel about that. It is possible though, that her concern or even fear of being alone could have made her susceptible to a caller at the door whom she took to be a neighbour and hence assumed to be a normal sort of safe neighbourly person, rather than a threat or an opportunist or predator. Again her closest friends could probably tell us more about why she was dreading being on her own and how she was likely to react at the door to a caller or a neighbour when on her own.
GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15
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She was dreading being left on her own for the first time, apparently. (Dreading is a strong word.) That's likely to be either because she was afraid of being on her own in the flat or she hated being apart from Greg or she was a person who in any case didn't like being alone. If she wanted to go to her best friend in Swansea, that could suggest that she didn't want to be alone in the flat because she was afraid. It certainly wouldn't imply that she felt safe in her flat. Texting her friends and wanting their company because she was afraid of being alone would be understandable. It doesn't follow that she would want the company of someone she didn't know. Her friends could probably shed light on how she would feel about that. It is possible though, that her concern or even fear of being alone could have made her susceptible to a caller at the door whom she took to be a neighbour and hence assumed to be a normal sort of safe neighbourly person, rather than a threat or an opportunist or predator. Again her closest friends could probably tell us more about why she was dreading being on her own and how she was likely to react at the door to a caller or a neighbour when on her own.
WC said in his opening statement to the jury:
“Tabak tried to wriggle out of what he had done but that doesn't explain his state of mind before the death.”
"State of mind," he said.
WC also said:
"He is being tried for whether he intended to kill her and whether it was premeditated.
We mustn't forget we are working on reasonable doubt it was murder, because that's the charge, so does the evidence support murder or not?
I think if we work from this perspective we may get somewhere.
“Tabak tried to wriggle out of what he had done but that doesn't explain his state of mind before the death.”
"State of mind," he said.
WC also said:
"He is being tried for whether he intended to kill her and whether it was premeditated.
We mustn't forget we are working on reasonable doubt it was murder, because that's the charge, so does the evidence support murder or not?
I think if we work from this perspective we may get somewhere.
Curious Alice
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Incredibly specific detail and recall of hand placement, movement, duration of gripping throat, degree of force. Totally at odds with being unable to remember other salient details.
Yes, I've noticed before how VT went on at length about the cat when asked at a dinner party whether he knew the neighbours. I mean that he went on too long and into too much detail about the cat - not that he shouldn't have mentioned the cat in passing.
Agree with your final paragraph too.
I agree- Its possible Tabaks story has been concocted in order to project some blame onto Jo; she flirted with him so therefore she led him on & has to account for some of the blame and not that hes a violent monster, who in a rage strangles women half his size.
However, perhaps if we read between the lines of Tabaks testimony, the true sequence of events could be right there in front of us. Judging by some statements he revealed to Lickley, answering questions and revealing facts that weren't actually asked particularly involving the cat.
If she hadn't felt safe there then, I imagine that she would have made plans to visit Swansea straight after work or made plans well in advance with Greg so that she went with him and they took the cat. My interpretation of the texts was that she was bored and wanted company rather than sit alone in the flat. I have always thought that her and G argued that day, not a big argument but a small disagreement. This would account for his reaction on her not replying to his texts or answering her calls. Every couple argues, me and my husband have some mega ones, doesn't mean we don;t love each other, but I have always found it strange she didn't go with him and I find this especially strange if she had any reservations about being home alone.
Ah, excellent sleuthing, Clio. He can't remember about Greg and the car. Hah! How telling. But the mildew, he remembers.
I don't think that she hated being apart from GR. Her parents said quite early on that it wasn't the first time GR had been away. It may well have been the first time he had been away whilst they were living at that flat though
You are a wizard at finding the right tweet! I don't know how you do it. It takes me forever scrolling through pages and pages and then I still don't see it and my PC freezes.
Clio, Robin Hood ,Cherwell, I believe you are right that the cat figures largely in this event
Tabak, perhaps angry already after his girlfriend being out without him, was angered further when Bernard perhaps got into his flat again, maybe eating his pizza left overs or worse. As we know, Greg highlighted in his testimony how TM had asked him to remove Bernard from their flat previously. This suggests that the cat being “where it shouldn’t” may have already been a bone of contention with the Tabak household.
Tabak could have been waiting on Jo returning that night, to bring Bernard back to her and give her a piece of his mind. Backing up the timeline, he possibly could have came almost straight around with the cat, rang the doorbell and Jo could have looked out the kitchen window to see who it was.
Perhaps she answered the door to a raging Tabak, possibly pushing her cat at her into the hallway, with an angry statement, such as “here’s your bloody cat, keep it under control in future”.
As I believe Cherwell stated previously on the forum, Tabak could have been rough with Bernard causing Jo to angrily request him to get out of her hall perhaps even nudging him to do so, maybe stating something like “what are you doing in my house, just get out” . Hypothetically, he could have responded something like, “if your cat can invade my space, I can invade yours”.
In Tabak’s testimony he stated that Jo said “the cat can get into places where it shouldn’t, just like me”. It could have been Tabak who said something like this to Jo in a rage, just before grabbing her and violently killing her.
Could be this statement was projected onto Jo in an unconscious defence mechanism as though she had said it while she was supposedly flirting with him, intended both to protect himself from the unacceptable knowledge that he had actually murdered someone and also to convince the jury that Jo had flirted with him.
What happened in the hall is as Nausicca posted about the strangling.
As Robin Hood said either a scenario like this or he was caught in the flat, would account for the suddenness of
the attack and the timeline, the screams the couple heard
.
Tabak, perhaps angry already after his girlfriend being out without him, was angered further when Bernard perhaps got into his flat again, maybe eating his pizza left overs or worse. As we know, Greg highlighted in his testimony how TM had asked him to remove Bernard from their flat previously. This suggests that the cat being “where it shouldn’t” may have already been a bone of contention with the Tabak household.
Tabak could have been waiting on Jo returning that night, to bring Bernard back to her and give her a piece of his mind. Backing up the timeline, he possibly could have came almost straight around with the cat, rang the doorbell and Jo could have looked out the kitchen window to see who it was.
Perhaps she answered the door to a raging Tabak, possibly pushing her cat at her into the hallway, with an angry statement, such as “here’s your bloody cat, keep it under control in future”.
As I believe Cherwell stated previously on the forum, Tabak could have been rough with Bernard causing Jo to angrily request him to get out of her hall perhaps even nudging him to do so, maybe stating something like “what are you doing in my house, just get out” . Hypothetically, he could have responded something like, “if your cat can invade my space, I can invade yours”.
In Tabak’s testimony he stated that Jo said “the cat can get into places where it shouldn’t, just like me”. It could have been Tabak who said something like this to Jo in a rage, just before grabbing her and violently killing her.
Could be this statement was projected onto Jo in an unconscious defence mechanism as though she had said it while she was supposedly flirting with him, intended both to protect himself from the unacceptable knowledge that he had actually murdered someone and also to convince the jury that Jo had flirted with him.
What happened in the hall is as Nausicca posted about the strangling.
As Robin Hood said either a scenario like this or he was caught in the flat, would account for the suddenness of
the attack and the timeline, the screams the couple heard
.
Indeed. Well prepared and rehearsed too, I'd say.
Thank you :blushing:
FiestyFairy
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The prosecution said that they found a duvet and two pillow cases in VT's car. In their closing session they showed pictures from VT's flat, showing a duvet on the bed with a cover matching the pillow cases in his car. I haven't seen or heard anything that brings this into context for me
Does anyone understand the relevance of the pillow slips and duvet in his car?
Also, I saw that the defense expert pathologist originally thought that the damage to Jo's nose could be caused by it being pressed into a soft item like a sofa. Could he have tried to asphyxiate her with something?
The missing half hour - is this the time he used to clean and 'dress' the crime scene?
Does anyone understand the relevance of the pillow slips and duvet in his car?
Also, I saw that the defense expert pathologist originally thought that the damage to Jo's nose could be caused by it being pressed into a soft item like a sofa. Could he have tried to asphyxiate her with something?
The missing half hour - is this the time he used to clean and 'dress' the crime scene?
She wanted to go to Swansea but because of the snow the travel would have been very difficult if not impossible, with trains and buses being cancelled.
Don't know why she didn't go with Greg. Could be many reasons: something to do with his family situation or because she had preparations to make for Christmas and felt rushed, or because she'd had had a cold and wasn't feeling on top form or even possibly because of the cat. We don't even know if it had ever been intended for her to go and had been changed at the last minute, which would be the case if they'd had an argument. Again, it is something that friends could perhaps tell us.
Yes, that has been mentioned before. It raises the question whether there was some unease that she had about being left alone in that flat.
I don't recall reading or seeing anything about that.
Did the pathologist say he changed his mind about that and say he thought it was caused by pressure of hand on her mouth?
FiestyFairy
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Yes he did, just before they finished his cross examination for the day. Just tried to copy and paste but struggling with 'how' on the iPad. Skynewsgatherer reported it along with a couple of others
From Steven Morris
In initial report pathologist Nat Cary said it was a possibility Joanna Yeates face had been pressed into "soft furnishing" - like a chair
From Skynewsgatherer
He now thinks it could have been caused by a hand over her mouth - or a fall to the ground.
Wonder what made him change his mind......
She could have had any number of reasons to have elected to stay behind that weekend - from not feeling too well (she'd been off work with a cold previously) to not wanting to give her cold to the newborn babies, to preparing for the party/Christmas, to looking after the cat; any number of perfectly understandable reasons really. It's also possible that she was absolutely ok with the idea of being on her own in the flat until her partner had left and it had sunk in that she would arrive home to an empty flat. Things may have seemed very different after a long day in work, she may have been tired, it was cold and dark outside and perhaps thinking of coming home and having to be alone was scaring her, which may have been why she texted her friends and phoned them. Also, the hadn't lived there very long.
FWIW, when I'm in a similar situation (like last weekend *cough*), and I make the decision to stay behind, it all seems fine in broad daylight when I think how much I have to do and what I can do when I'm on my own that might cause a disturbance if my partner were at home (completely rearranging all the kitchen cupboards, for example, which usually requires pulling everything out and renders the kitchen unusable for an extended period of time; watching something my partner wouldn't be interested in; hogging the bathroom for a long time lounging in the bath, which is unfair when you only have one bathroom and the other person might want to use it if they're around; dyeing hair, which takes a whole day). Once the afternoon shadows grow long and the floorboards start creaking etc., and especially when dusk falls, things are very different and I start seeking human contact. Perhaps she was in a similar situation.
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