GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #5

[Alisia Dragoon]

Please don't laugh at me but I was wondering if anyone has thought of this:

http://www.google.co.uk/intl/en_uk/earth/index.html

I haven't downloaded Google Earth myself but intend to. It may not even be helpful. I don't know if these satellite cameras would be able to pick up details such as the quarry area in Bristol where JY was found on christmas. Not sure if it did. I'm guessing that it isn't something that would show any clues about JY being put there.

 

[mikeymot]

I've always felt convinced Jo was killed on the Friday night, most probably around the 9-10 p.m time. I'm also pretty certain her body was dumped in Longwood Lane in the early hours of Christmas morning. Given the location, snow cover or not, I feel sure she would have been discovered before. Her body was somewhere else for 8 days possibly. Until her body was found it was still a missing persions enquiry, the Police would not be doing extensive searching around the property. The suspicious 4X4 on Saturday morning the 18th may just well be a Red Herring.

If the Sun story is correct-about the Police giving credence to the theory that her body may have been stashed around the flat is true. Then naming no names, but this puts previously untoucheable people back into the frame.

Interesting developments indeed!

Getting giddy now!

 

[mikeymot]

Here's my rather amateurish attempt at detailing the possible flat layout.

I've gone on how many windows there are, the size of the windows, and the service pipes and plumbing to place the W.C/shower and kitchens. I would think there was a small hallway in the middle section. The small window at the side of the entrance door being the only window in the hall. I've marked the side entrance door opening out just for clarity.

Don't anyone take this layout as factual, because I just don't know. It's all deduction.
I could be (and probably am) way off the mark lol

So I've uploaded the plan below if anyone else wants to have a go.

Well done....but where is the 'communal hallway' that previous press reports have said the post is dropped? Is it the main door around the other side?

 

[mikeymot]

Indeed Gloriana, I think this is a very strong possibility. I posted this last night and am leaning more to this theory today. If so why doesnt the person she was with come forward and tell the truth and stop the investigation now.

Probably because they are in shock and denial and will be distancing themselves from both the crime....and the area.

 

[mikeymot]

My first post and I’m going to throw myself into the deep end already.

The only one who ticks all the boxes for me at the moment is MW.
It’s possible to have a male friend without there being any kind of sexual relationship. This doesn’t mean to say that he may not have secret desires though.

According to MW he was at a Christmas party and didn’t reply to Joanna’s text until an hour later. This contradicts the first report where he supposedly states that he was asleep in bed. If both quotes are true, then why change the alibi?

The wording of the text message apparently sent to Joanna: Where are you? Do you fancy a drink?

Considering Joanna had been in contact with MW via Facebook and email, then ‘Where are you?’ doesn’t make sense in the context that she’s asking whereabouts he’s now living. It may make more sense if there'd been a prearranged meeting and he hadn’t turned up. ‘Do you fancy a drink?’ could simply be brain working faster than fingers and could mean: ‘do you still want that drink?’ In other words: where the hell have you got to? Do you still want that drink or not?

Warning!! The following is only speculation on my behalf.

MW wasn’t far from Joanna’s home - Clifton Triangle where he was, apparently, attending his work Christmas party. Having read Joanna’s text he perhaps later met up with her at the flat. Something happened which ended in Joanna being strangled. Perhaps he harboured secret desires for his friend which perhaps surfaced with the help of alcohol induced Dutch courage consumed previously at the party? Perhaps Joanna refused his advances? I can only speculate.

Everything’s gone wrong. He now has a dead person on his hands. So what to do? The problem here is how on earth did he get Joanna’s body out of the flat? If having successfully (somehow) removed her body, he perhaps placed her in a temporary place of hiding. He returns to the party where he replies to Joanna’s ‘Where are you?’ text at around 9:20pm saying he can’t make it. Perhaps at a later date, when his thoughts are more in order, he moves her to Longwood Lane at a time when there will be less activity in the area.

Back to Joanna’s text. She apparently sent it at around 8:20pm before heading off to Bargain Booze and Tesco. She’s only just sent the text and hasn’t received a reply to say he’s not coming, so there’s no reason to cancel plans just yet and still get the things in for the evening just in case.

At first it didn’t seem unusual to buy two 330ml bottles for personal consumption...however; the Tesco CCTV seems to show Joanna holding two plastic bags in her right hand. One black; one white. The dark bag looks to contain two small bottles, so presumably the two bottles of cider, while the light bag looks as if it there’s a taller bottle...possibly wine. If that is a bottle of wine then it suggests she was expecting a visitor that night after all.

Going by what we do know, Joanna sent a text to MW and no one else. Going by the wording of the text, he seems the most likely person to be the company she may have been expecting.

But... None of the above explains the missing pizza or (if that is a bottle of wine in the white carrier) where the bottle of wine has gone – the police mentioned cider, but not wine.

For me, at least for the moment, MW and GR are teetering on the top rungs of the suspect ladder. GR mostly because it seems odd to be that emotional when at the time it was a plea for a missing person. You’d be forgiven for thinking that the press conference was after finding Jo’s body. My main suspicions are the lack of photographs from the Christening and (apparently) skiing. Surely photos had been taken at an event such as this? With the tide of suspicion swelling over GR's whereabouts over the weekend I thought this would be something his half-brother and/or sister-in-law would release. And eight out of ten murders involving women tend to be at the hands of their nearest and dearest.

Having said all that, there is a danger that I may be trying to make things fit, so I could very well be wrong.

Good theory....only problem is moving J/Y from the flat. If this theory is correct (and it easily could be) I think an earlier post I did .... had MW and J/Y going back to his place. Ate the pizza there...drank the wine..and maybe a little of the cider. He then dumps her body and takes her belongings back to her flat (this could be early hours of Sat. morning)

 

[mikeymot]

The killer isn't showing empathy for Jo's parents wanting the body to be found to ease their agony. This killer(s) hasn't enough conscience to give himself up, he/they/she continues to evade the Police, and evade them very well.

I agree that the killer now appears not to have a conscience.....but he may have done at the time of the killing? Maybe now, it isn't conscience that is eluding him...but guts. He has dug himself into a hole and is probably STILL hoping that it will all go away! For whatever reason he left the body where he did...one thing we know for certain is that he made no effort to conceal it.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ok here's my theory..

BF sets off(has already filled tank up and has receipt), gets call from brother or vice versa (progress check)
Because the snow set in from the north that day, skiing is muted for the weekend,
BF turns back - for skis (possibly may also have forgotten phone charger and his battery goes flat).

Arrives back 9ish, JY already in flat.
BF explains just popped back for skis and charger.
During the next ten minutes text message comes through from CAG.
BF challenges JY about this - also sees pizza for two and two bottles of cider.
Argument escalates and JY killed.
BF uses skis and large bag on top to get body to car.
Drives opposite way from Sheffield to dump body.
Goes to brothers as planned and still arrives midnightish.
Arrives home Sunday night 8ish, over tidies the flat and realises he needs to get rid of pizza.
Doesn't call police till midnight.
JY parents notice flat is unusual.

All theory JMO

He needed a jump start to get away the first time. He'll be in a helluva fix if he needs one the second time ! Where did he park the car on returning - outside the flat in full view of neighbours who had helped him leave for Sheffield over two hours earlier ? Further down the road, on the other hand, makes for a somewhat embarrassing journey with the corpse! And heaving the body up into the roof box is going to call on all his strength and perhaps a bit more - very awkward applying high physical strength to a point above one's head height. I also don't think you're going to get him to Sheffield for midnightish or anything like.

Sure we know no physical fact for certain that refutes this hypothesis but I don't think it rings true psychologically and I think it is highly likely that the police have overwhelming proof against it.

 

[mikeymot]

Good news that the police have finally had the idea of taking a close look at internal plans of 44 Canynge Rd. I hope they will remember that some changes might be made which are not on the plans and may be unknown even to residents - for instance a connection between one flat and another situated directly below.

I presume the journalists are guessing when they say that the police motive for wanting the plans is to locate where the body might have been provisionally stored. More likely IMO it is to evaluate the movements of a hypothetical very local killer.

It looks from the searches along Providence Lane as though that may have been where the famous "important piece of evidence" handed in recently by a member of the public came from. I should think that a few people had the idea of winning the £50000 jackpot by finding an important clue in the countryside surrounding the body site.

I don't find MW a convincing candidate for the perp because it is too easy. Once again, the police may be uninspired and plodding, but they are not newborn babes. They will have turned his alibi inside out and know every helix of his DNA by heart. And don't forget he was at a party. If he left that party early for no apparent reason, plenty of people will be aware of it.

No, I am taking it for granted that GR and MW have rock solid alibis because they are not guilty, and those alibis probably include irrefutable evidence from their mobile phone use and location.

From every point of view I can think of, much more likely is the close neighbour.

One secondary point, I haven't understood Mr Yeates' remark about the flat-tidying. We learn that Joanna and Greg were untidy. We learn that Joanna was planning to spend the weekend tidying. We learn that when Joanna's parents saw the flat, they concluded from this that she had been abducted. But was that because it was still untidy or because it was tidier than she was capable of making it ? Surely it is not beyond the bounds of conceivability for an untidy girl to plan to tidy her flat and then fail to do so even without being abducted or murdered? Good intentions sometimes yield to the weakness of the flesh.

It seems to me pretty clear from police statements that the killer did a thorough clean up job. He covered his personally identifiable traces, but not the fact that someone had been deliberately covering traces. That, if so, would provide additional proof that JY got home and was murdered there.

Once again, I see in my mind's eye a close neighbour who knew that Greg had left for the weekend and could calmly spend time in the flat with no risk of being caught, or could calmly move a body around without being seen. That's my preferred best-fit hypothesis on the facts we know - waiting, like every hypothesis, to be refuted by new evidence.

As these buildings are, presumably victorian, would they not have cellars?

 

[pipkins]

I hope they decide to bring in cadaver dogs to search the house/cars

 

[Slewth]

Good news that the police have finally had the idea of taking a close look at internal plans of 44 Canynge Rd. I hope they will remember that some changes might be made which are not on the plans and may be unknown even to residents - for instance a connection between one flat and another situated directly below.

I presume the journalists are guessing when they say that the police motive for wanting the plans is to locate where the body might have been provisionally stored. More likely IMO it is to evaluate the movements of a hypothetical very local killer.

It looks from the searches along Providence Lane as though that may have been where the famous "important piece of evidence" handed in recently by a member of the public came from. I should think that a few people had the idea of winning the £50000 jackpot by finding an important clue in the countryside surrounding the body site.

I don't find MW a convincing candidate for the perp because it is too easy. Once again, the police may be uninspired and plodding, but they are not newborn babes. They will have turned his alibi inside out and know every helix of his DNA by heart. And don't forget he was at a party. If he left that party early for no apparent reason, plenty of people will be aware of it.

No, I am taking it for granted that GR and MW have rock solid alibis because they are not guilty, and those alibis probably include irrefutable evidence from their mobile phone use and location.

From every point of view I can think of, much more likely is the close neighbour.

One secondary point, I haven't understood Mr Yeates' remark about the flat-tidying. We learn that Joanna and Greg were untidy. We learn that Joanna was planning to spend the weekend tidying. We learn that when Joanna's parents saw the flat, they concluded from this that she had been abducted. But was that because it was still untidy or because it was tidier than she was capable of making it ? Surely it is not beyond the bounds of conceivability for an untidy girl to plan to tidy her flat and then fail to do so even without being abducted or murdered? Good intentions sometimes yield to the weakness of the flesh.

It seems to me pretty clear from police statements that the killer did a thorough clean up job. He covered his personally identifiable traces, but not the fact that someone had been deliberately covering traces. That, if so, would provide additional proof that JY got home and was murdered there.

Once again, I see in my mind's eye a close neighbour who knew that Greg had left for the weekend and could calmly spend time in the flat with no risk of being caught, or could calmly move a body around without being seen. That's my preferred best-fit hypothesis on the facts we know - waiting, like every hypothesis, to be refuted by new evidence.

Some useful points. On the use of the word “tidy”, I’ve only seen one reference to this (in a local paper), and dismissed it really as a throwaway remark. I think it just meant “not untidy”, “nothing out of the ordinary”, “no furniture out of place that might have indicated a struggle” – as opposed to saying that the flat was especially or suspiciously tidy.

Of course, “tidy” isn’t the same as “clean”, and it is perhaps fortunate that the flat was not kept spic-and-span, because this will have made the forensic clean-up around where the murder took place stick out like a sore thumb. BTW, I wonder where the murderer’s cleaning materials came from? Was any cleaning product/chemical used that was not kept in the flat? Were any cleaning cloths missing from the flat? Whatever the answers, this information could be highly significant.

As regards profiling, the murderer was “forensically aware” we are told. This indicates a very methodical, almost scientific mindset, and someone who can keep his cool under pressure…….someone who is the very antithesis of a traditional English schoolmaster?

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Hidden From View:
I have been thinking with this 'odd' assortment of neighbors, is it possible that there is some kind of hidden underground 'cave' somewhere in the neighborhood that is very cleverly concealed/soundproofed? Could be in an old abandoned area... close to 42/44/ or somewhere like the Rifle Range. A secret location that they can use in conjunction with any possible 'stuff'. If I repeating myself I apologize...

 

[MMENJBRIT]

The Mystery 4x4

Unless there is some ulterior motive, it wouldn't be a bad idea for L/E to release the description of this vehicle.

When Jaycee Dugard was kidnapped in the US... they had a pretty good description of the vehicle that was used. That same vehicle was still in the PERPS backyard 20 years later well hidden behind some bushes... It makes me think that car is hidden well, but all it would take is a ton of nosy neighbors... and that mystery 4x4 might be found.

Thoughts?

 

[enzeder]

Does anyone have a link to G/R full press conference? Theres a tiny clip on ITN source but the main part has been axed? http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist/ITN/2010/12/22/T22121033/?v=0&a=1
As of yet I have found no trace of him speaking. I know that he said " I thought we would be together forever"
All I could find was a 3 second clip of him 'squeezing' his eyes shut for the tears to fall. I find it very baffling that there has been a blackout of this.

I've searched everywhere for that particular video to no avail. This youtube video shows a little of GR (towards the end but not talking) It's not the same video where JY father had a dark top on. I think the one we are looking for was filmed on 22nd December. I did notice whilst googling that others are searching for it also.

[video=youtube;JNRwwOmvchg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNRwwOmvchg&feature=related[/video]

"December 21: Miss Yeates' parents, David and Theresa, make their first tearful appeal for information at a police press conference in Bristol.

December 22: Mr Reardon spoke of his distress at the disappearance of his girlfriend. 'I desperately want her back - I thought we would be together forever,' he said. Specialist officers search the couple's flat and the Bristol Downs and Avon Gorge. They took a phone and laptop computer from Mr Reardon.

December 23: Miss Yeates' parents make a second tearful appeal and reveal their fears for their daughter's safety."

http://news1.ghananation.com/intern...finding-their-missing-architect-daughter.html

 

[Mysteeri]

SashaM

But... None of the above explains the missing pizza or (if that is a bottle of wine in the white carrier) where the bottle of wine has gone – the police mentioned cider, but not wine.

Hi, well I think it does. If he ate the pizza and/or drank wine with her, he would get rid of them; signs that she had a guest or things that had his fingerprints/DNA.

 

[Rossetti]

The suspicious 4X4 on Saturday morning the 18th may just well be a Red Herring.

I don't think any details about this car have been made public. As far as I'm aware, the only 4x4 that has been mentioned is the one that drove into, then reversed out of, the golf club entrance on the Friday night. The witnesses described that as a light-coloured 4x4 type vehicle.

 

[enzeder]

I don't think any details about this car have been made public. As far as I'm aware, the only 4x4 that has been mentioned is the one that drove into, then reversed out of, the golf club entrance on the Friday night. The witnesses described that as a light-coloured 4x4 type vehicle.

Here's a mention of the "light-coloured car" seen pulling into the entrance of Long Ashton Golf Club.

RIDDLE OF U-TURN CAR

Police are trying to trace the owner of a light-coloured car seen on the night Jo disappeared in the remote area where her body was dumped.

Two members of Long Ashton Golf Club in Failand were about to drive home when they saw the car pull into the entrance at 11.20pm on December 17.

The driver noticed the key-code operated barriers and hastily did a U-turn. It then sped off towards Longwood Lane.

The witnesses reported the incident after Miss Yeates’s body was found on a grass verge beside the lane on Christmas Day. Around 30 of the guests are believed to have driven down the lane between 11pm and midnight before heavy snow fell in the early hours.

Most of them told police that they had their lights on full beam but did not see a body on the verge.

One member said: ‘Failand is such a remote area and the way the car was being driven stuck in the witnesses’ mind.’

Forensic officers tested the snow and ground in Longwood Lane for tyre tracks after Miss Yeates’s body was found.

DCI Phil Jones said earlier this week that he believed the body had been there ‘several days’ and was covered in snow.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...murder-Chris-Jefferies-freed-bail-2-days.html

This article says "Caught on CCTV".

"On the night Miss Yeates went missing it was the Captain's Dinner at Long Ashton Golf Club, attended by about 80 men and women.

Two members were about to drive home when they saw a light-coloured 4x4 car pull into the entrance at about 11.20pm.

Caught on CCTV, the driver appeared to notice the key-code operated barriers and hastily did a U-turn before speeding off in the direction of Longwood Lane, which is only about 100 yards away. Several weeks on and the murder mystery is still the talk of the club."

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news...discovery/article-3081225-detail/article.html

 

[mikeymot]

Hidden From View:
I have been thinking with this 'odd' assortment of neighbors, is it possible that there is some kind of hidden underground 'cave' somewhere in the neighborhood that is very cleverly concealed/soundproofed? Could be in an old abandoned area... close to 42/44/ or somewhere like the Rifle Range. A secret location that they can use in conjunction with any possible 'stuff'. If I repeating myself I apologize...

I suppose there could be an air raid shelter....all these properties belonged to Clifton College....at least until 1988.

 

[Rossetti]

all these properties belonged to Clifton College....at least until 1988.

No. 42 has been occupied by members of the Stanley family since the 1930s at the latest. So I doubt that it belongs to the College. It has not been converted into flats. Although that may be now under way - that's just a guess given the evidence of building work going on. I think I read somewhere that planning permission had been granted for its conversion.

 

[mikeymot]

No. 42 has been occupied by members of the Stanley family since the 1930s at the latest. So I doubt that it belongs to the College. It has not been converted into flats. Although that may be now under way - that's just a guess given the evidence of building work going on. I think I read somewhere that planning permission had been granted for its conversion.

Thanks, yes planning was granted in 2004.....but the conversion from 4 to 7 flats which was carried out at No.44 had its application granted in 2008.....applicant was Clifton college.

 

[SashaM]

Hi and welcome from a fellow newbie!
It would be interesting to know whether MW kept the text or told the police from memory what it said. If the text was deleted, can it be recovered?
Also, there was a comment on a daily mail article from someone who purported to MW's stepsister, which said that MW left his phone charging in the office, whilst being at the Christmas party. Hence not replying earlier to her text.

Thank you TulipaNoir

I would love to know that answer too. But perhaps the text is still in Joanna’s ‘sent box’ on her mobile? But then, if it was him, perhaps he thought to delete it!

His phone being a charged could very well be true and he may have nothing to do with any of this except that Joanna had contact with him. My problem is that I can sometimes see too much in so little, which is why I wrote at the end of my post “Having said all that, there is a danger that I may be trying to make things fit, so I could very well be wrong.”

But would he need to move the body?
As far as we know the receipt from Bargain Booze only listed the two bottles of cider.

I understand there’s a receipt for Tesco, but not sure there's one for Bargain Booze? I’m not convinced we know all of Joanna’s movements that night.

She seems to be carrying two carrier bags in the Tesco CCTV which I can’t seem to account for. According to the CCTV from Bargain Booze (at the end) she puts something into her rucksack so assuming it’s the two bottles of cider....the carrier bags are not in her hand when she enters Bargain Booze but they do appear on the Tesco CCTV, so perhaps she may have bought something from somewhere between Bargain Booze and going to Tesco?

Great post Sasha and welcome.
I think you have a very strong and valid point regarding the text "where are you etc". Its quite logical to assume that Joanna is expecting MW from that and he is on his way. Furthermore, if Jo was murdered at around 9.00pm and I think she didnt get a text back immediately, but when she did it was a refusal to her invitation for a drink, could it be that the text was sent after the murder to cover his tracks. I think the return text was around 9.10pm Not much time in between but I am not sure of the timings of the texts. It could also be that when Jo sent the first text, MW was a stones throw away.

Thank you Sweep the cat

As far as I’m aware the text from Joanna to MW was sent at 8:20pm but that means it was sent before reaching Bargain Booze let alone Tesco.
Text from MW to Joanna sent one hour later at approx. 9:20pm

The idea of Joanna having being murdered at 9:00pm comes from the woman across the road who said she heard two screams but put it down to high jinx with it being around Xmas time...and I believe someone else also heard screams at around the same time.

So assuming Joanna knew the person who may have attacked her at 9:00pm ... that would only give him 20mins to take the body to a temporary location and get back to the party. Even if the screams were not of Joanna and her attack happened a little earlier that would still only give him approx. 3/4 an hour. Now that I've put it like that, I'm starting to think it sounds impossible to accomplish and perhaps I am barking up the wrong tree.

Thank you for your help