GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #6

[whitedove]

Not me. I leave them in a bowl in a the kitchen (nearest surface to front door). In previous flats, I've had enough room for a table in the hallway so they tend to be put in a bowl on that.

I think someone put the keys back in the flat but not in sight to a) buy themselves time for whatever they needed to do and b) help any trail that could directly lead from JY to them go cold and make it harder for the police to link them.

I hang my keys up on the side of a cupboard where they can't be found, I did this after reading about crime, they advise you not to leave your keys on a table as the robbers not only rob your house, but take your car as well.

 

[SashaM]

Did anyone find the post on Forensics, digestion of foods and rigor mortis helpful? If not then let me know and I'll stop searching for answers - I'd hate to be wasting time on something that's of no use to anyone

 

[Rossetti]

According to the D/Express, Jo was in the Ram pub celebrating Christmas, she left early, the rest stayed later, and Taxi's were arranged to take them home.
I wonder why Jo left early

She may not have been particularly friendly with her work colleagues. Perhaps two or three hours was enough after all day at work.

 

[Firefly75]

Hi Sasha,

Yes, I found your post useful, thank you very much, only I wasn't signed in, so couldn't click 'thank you'.

 

[laserdisc10]

your comment, " Only reason I can think of is that she was enticed into opening the door - only to be overpowered and taken someplace else "... resonates with me for the following reasons :

1. The person at a party across the street ( who had stepped out to have a smoke ) heard two screams at around 9pm. I had previously mentioned that I thought the front door was possibly open, and that's why this woman was able to hear the screams.

2. The fact that LE took away the front door, looking for dna like blood or hair stuck to it.

IMO, these facts make it sound like there was a confrontation at or very near the front door of the flat. It makes me wonder if CJ was telling the truth when he said he saw 3 people leaving the flat that night. And I wonder if they also saw him ?

Some interesting facts about this case IMO,are : the huge police presence that night when GR called to report her missing.

The fact that her parents were very quickly aware that she had been abducted. The very large ( at least to me ) amount of $$$ spent on this case.

LE described this as a "very complex" case, which, IMO, would cast some doubt on it being a case of attempted rape,B & E, ETC.

It just doesn't sound like LE is close to making any arrests. IMO

All JMO

The media was all over this case from the word go. Why ? What differentiated this case from others occurring at the same period, throughout the length of the country ?

Almost as if the media drove the case with the police attempting to play catch-up. Why ?

Based on their publicised comments, the boyfriend and parents appeared resigned/accepted that JY was dead, from very early on. Why ?

Very odd photos of the parents. Staged. Posed. 'Signature pose' with the mother laying her head on the 'strong' supportive husband figure. Will admit it's crossed my mind these photos were taken prior to the event

Yes, it's been remarked upon numerously in this and many other fora that the quick response by police was 'remarkable' (aka: odd, suspicious, strange) given the hour, time of year, age of JY, respectable environs, etc. Most common would be advice from police to GR to 'give it a few hours ... it's Christmas after all ... she might have decided to stay at a friend's place ... she could still be partying. If she's not home by say lunchtime tomorrow, call us back ' ... or ... ' Ok. We'll send a car around as soon as we can and you can provide details ', etc.

If GR had protested with, ' Look. I think something's happened to her. Her keys and purse and everything are here and she wouldn't have left them ... '. Police may well have responded with, ' She could have locked herself out. Probably staying with friends until after you got home from your trip. She'll probably turn up in a few hours. Why not ring around her friends to see if she's there. If you don't find her, give us another call after lunch time tomorrow. She's bound to turn up '

Based on what we've been told, there was no reason to suspect foul play at that time. If GR had told police there was blood in the flat, or signs of a struggle, then we would assume this is why they rushed around there so swiftly. But we've never been told anything of the kind. In fact, police were reported as stating, from the outset, that there were no signs of forced entry or struggle

So what drove the police to attend so swiftly ? It's a respectable, generally safe and secure neighbourhood, we're told, so it normally wouldn't trigger alarm or quick response. GR and JY and their parents and friends are of no particular prominence or importance, as far as we're aware. Not as if it had been Prince Andrew's daughters or the daughter of the owner of Top Shop or Kate Moss who'd gone missing. Must have been dozens of men and women who weren't where they were supposed to be on the night of the 17th in Bristol. How many of those cases did the police attend swiftly ? How many of those people stumbled home a day or so later ?

There was no immediate scrutiny by police of local cctv. In fact, it's reported police told businesses to scrutinize their own and take it to police if they noticed anything untoward. There was no freeze on garbage bins in JY's area. In fact, those bins were emptied under the noses of the police. There was no intense forensic examination of JY's flat or of the building or of other flats. That didn't occur until after the body was discovered. No door to door enquiries of which we're aware. It wasn't until after the body had been found that locals began volunteering information, such as the alleged short screams, which as we know, could mean something or nothing at all. A shriek of mock horror by some attention-seeking girl at a party in response to tomfoolery is easily interpreted later, in light of unfolding events, to have meaning where none exists, although it makes good copy

The drama surrounding the landlord was more good copy. He was made for the media. Police arrested him, kept him for 3 days, released him and in effect, satisfied the public all was clear in that respect. Which effectively quashed online frenzy regarding 'Freemasonic ' involvement

The focus was on the Clifton bridge and its array of cctv installations. If the world wasn't aware of the 22 cctv cameras on that bridge beforehand, they are in no doubt now. And the pizza, of course. The public didn't know if they were supposed to laugh or not. Pizza ? The police have searched x-tons of garbage for a pizza ?

The landlord and nearby residents dwelling and vehicles, as well as JY's flat, were subjected to highly publicised forensic investigation late in the day and it was made sure the police were seen to be carrying out this belated investigation via dozens of photos and dozens of evidence bags being carted past the media

Facebook was employed, in keeping with the high tech approach to this case

Was there any substance to online discussion of the numerous 'Number 25s' ?
JY was 25. She was discovered dead on the 25th, which also happened to be the date of a prominent Christian celebration. Two number 25s were displayed prominently in many of the photos of the star of the show, the Clifton bridge. And another case involving a missing/murdered woman who was also 25, was being linked

The boyfriend and the parents were featured in tv appeals. They featured in a flower-laying tribute and again at the docks. 'Christmas means nothing' ... ' Christmas has been ruined for us ' ... ' This won't be much of a Christmas' and similar comments seemingly so inappropriate and voiced by those who'd lost a daughter, a potential daughter-in-law ... lost her as in permanently. Who would even think of Christmas under such circumstances ? Who would think to say such things, or care at that point ?

A televised interview with the supposed best friend of the dead girl that to me felt dark, strange and unsettling

A few polished sound-bites about the dead girl, as if they'd been lifted from her CV. Sounded hollow. No real information. No-one in this case has a shadow within their past, apparently. It's been sunshine and success all the way. So the public knows no more about JY or her family, associates, friends, past, etc. than they did on Day One

It's movie stuff. It's drama. It's like a tv mini-series, all of it. It's not really touching people. It's just more of what they've seen on the hundreds of crime shows. Even the killing was clean. And all of it dusted with snow and white vans and white tents and white-overalled investigators and White Christmas and snowflakes, frozen, clean, cold

When I look back at this case, I see professionally posed parents - an unconvincing cry by the boyfriend - a Harry Potter style, professorial, wild-haired, eccentric landlord figure - in a sprawling building in a privileged environment - with a perfect Ken and Barbie couple - at the centre of an unsolved but sanitary, bloodless, motiveless, highly-photogenic crime about which we know virtually nothing. It all seems as if it were scripted by a prudish writer at the BBC who was obsessed with technology and didn't have the wit to engage the audience by providing any clues and thought it sufficient to blame the Bridge and the Pizza -- oh yes, and The Sock

At the start of this case, I believed it to be possibly a hoax. I'm not sure I'll be persuaded if the police -- under pressure to wrap it up -- claim to have nailed their man/woman/both, via DNA. I suspect the police are more concerned with concealment than with truth. This case brings nothing to mind so much as the McCann case, to me, right now

 

[Nausicaa]

I’ve just finished catching up on the posts of the last 24 hours or so and I’m going to do a summary of various points that occur to me, with subtitles for each subject. If you don’t like long posts, just skip this one.

1. The Secret Clue.
It seems to me highly probable that the police have possessed a very important clue or piece of information, right from the night when Joanna was discovered, which they have chosen not to release. I have only the vaguest ideas of what it might be, but I think it is something found at or very close to Joanna’s flat which made it evident to them that they were dealing with a murder even before they found the body and which made it practically certain that the murder had taken place in the immediate locality, either inside no 44 or within a stone’s throw of it. Alternatively it might have been not physical evidence, but that they had already received a report from some eye-witness (for instance someone who saw a body being carried by an unidentified person), or it might conceivably have been, as has already been suggested, that Joanna at some stage knew she was in danger and called the police, but could not get any further…
Something like that must have happened, IMO, to explain the immediacy and scale of the police reaction. Even the media couldn’t understand this at the time.
This “secret clue” also accounts for why Joanna was being spoken of in the past tense and mourned by her loved ones when the public had no solid evidence she wasn’t still alive.
It also no doubt explains why the police have attached huge importance to the flat itself and its immediate surrounds, and various other aspects of the enquiry.
The Yeates parents hinted at its existence when they said they had seen something they were not allowed to mention. Indeed if it was a physical thing, they may have been the first to spot it.
The police no doubt have good reason for not wanting it to be public. Perhaps because it is important to conceal that they know something the murderer thinks they don’t know.
Whatever this thing was, it can’t, in my view, have pointed especially to GR as perp, because the Yeates parents would never have invited him to stay if they had had such suspicions.

2. On Greg Reardon’s Alibi.
The police will from the very start have given GR pride of place as suspect and subjected his alibi to very close inspection. Let’s give them that much credit. Now if GR’s alibi had resembled gruyère rather than cheddar, the police would never have arrested CJ on suspicion of murder. It is therefore highly probable that GR’s alibi is extremely solid, as one would expect it to be. Indeed, given his account of his movements, and the number of possible points at which it could be verified, the mere absence of corroboration would already be very strong evidence against him – hence my opinion that the corroborative evidence must be overwhelming. Note also that the latest video message from the parents, no doubt approved (if not dictated) by the police, was very pro-Greg. And note that the police can’t just say “We are completely certain Greg didn’t do it,” because that would be taken as implying that they are less certain that X Y and Z didn’t do it. It could be construed as libellous in respect of X Y and Z who have not been exonerated. And in every future investigation, anyone mentioned as a possible suspect on the Web would be queuing up to ask for a police-guaranteed statement of innocence.

3. On Joanna’s Timeline For Friday Night.
We have not been told whether the CCTV times given by the supermarket clocks have been confirmed as accurate. A difference of a few minutes might make a huge difference.

4. On Joanna’s Call To MW.
It is being overlooked that Joanna’s text, as quoted, does not state or imply that Greg is away.
Less important, the words “Where are you?” are what I might send to someone if I had just knocked on that person’s door and failed to raise an answer.

5. On RS’s Call Answered By GR.
Some have been surprised that the police had left JY’s mobile with GR. I think they are losing sight of the timing. If the press reports were correct, the police called RS about 4 am on Monday 20th Dec and although she missed the call, she nevertheless must have woken up almost immediately, as she called Joanna’s number at about the same time. The police were probably in the room when Greg answered the call and may have signalled to him to do so. They had probably hardly started their enquiry.

6. The Clifton Suspension Bridge.
Teabreid thinks that only a simpleton would take the body over the Clifton Suspension Bridge. Perhaps. But as quite a lot of murders are committed by simpletons, I don’t think we can blame them for enquiring carefully for CCTV pics of that route as long as they did not really forget the existence of other possibilities.

7. The Exact Site Where The Body Was Dumped.
We now have three possibilities : the site where the flowers are, the site just to the left of the boulder and the site where the dog-walkers and police are standing and looking in the early pics. I still favour the site to the left of the boulder as persuasively argued for by Phillb. I think it possible that right from the start the police deliberately avoided letting the press have photos that would reveal exactly where the body was found. That site is where the ground has been scraped in photos taken after the removal of the body.

8. How Long The Body Was There For.
Phillb argues strongly that it would be absurdly improbable for the body to spend several days in such a site without being discovered. But the post-mortem formally determines that it did. And Aneuran who has personal knowledge of the site does not find it incredible that it spent several days there. I take the view that improbable things sometimes happen, and we now have to recognize that this was one of them. The idea of a Christmas morning dumping, which I think I was the first to suggest, has to be rejected.

9. The Key Issue.
What possible reason could anyone have for taking away the body but leaving the personal effects ? What false impression did the murderer want to give or what truth did he want to conceal by so doing ? What idea or event or necessity could have made him so act. Surely if we can find a convincing answer to that question we shall be nearly home.

Once again my apologies for the length of this post.

 

[SirRobert]

This case has dropped out of the media spotlight now - you can practically date the slow down in news from the row between the Avon & Somerset constabulary and ITN.

If it wasn;t so sad, it would be amusing how the usual allegations are being laid against the press and media - 'sensationalism', 'false reporting', inaccuracies'. When the whole fever surrounding this case was generated by the police in the first place, with a flotilla of information about what they didn't know. The pizza, the sock, the issue of whether or not the police thought a ligature was used (something they still haven't made a statement on), the fiasco of the proposal to DNA-test every male in Bristol, the failure of the CCTV which was to reveal everything ...

What they don't know remains extraordinary. The case has all the hallmarks of yet another very public police flop.

There are people who will go crazy at the suggestion that cops are not all they puff themselves up to be. And there are many other missing person and murder cases which the cops have not made the topic of nationwide attention and so the failure to close them off is not as widely observed.

In this case, though, as indeed ITN highlighted, there were things not done at an early stage and if, as now sadly seems likely, this case does not get resolved in a neat way, it will probably come down to those things.

 

[laserdisc10]

this case has dropped out of the media spotlight now - you can practically date the slow down in news from the row between the avon & somerset constabulary and itn.

If it wasn;t so sad, it would be amusing how the usual allegations are being laid against the press and media - 'sensationalism', 'false reporting', inaccuracies'. When the whole fever surrounding this case was generated by the police in the first place, with a flotilla of information about what they didn't know. The pizza, the sock, the issue of whether or not the police thought a ligature was used (something they still haven't made a statement on), the fiasco of the proposal to dna-test every male in bristol, the failure of the cctv which was to reveal everything ...

What they don't know remains extraordinary. The case has all the hallmarks of yet another very public police flop.

There are people who will go crazy at the suggestion that cops are not all they puff themselves up to be. And there are many other missing person and murder cases which the cops have not made the topic of nationwide attention and so the failure to close them off is not as widely observed.

In this case, though, as indeed itn highlighted, there were things not done at an early stage and if, as now sadly seems likely, this case does not get resolved in a neat way, it will probably come down to those things.

snap !

 

[Firefly75]

I'm looking at the situation this way: Joanna was on her own in the flat for the first time. She probably wouldn't have wanted to risk getting locked out, as her boyfriend, the most immediate other key holder, was away for the whole weekend. She must have arrived home around 9 p.m., or just shortly before, if we go on the assumption that she made it home (as the police say she did). Knocking on the landlord's door after 9 p.m. like a lost kitten to ask for the spare key to let oneself back in is probably not something anyone would really want to do if it can be avoided; I imagine Joanna was old and responsible enough to feel the same, and wouldn't have gone out without her keys. She'd lived in the flat for a couple of months and would have known if the door was the kind that most rented properties seem to have, that is, the kind that locks automatically when one closes it. It could have had a latch, but most landlords (at least the ones I've rented from) don't favour that because of the tenant's/tenants' safety; quite understandably so, considering that leaving the front door in a multiple-occupancy house puts at risk everyone in the house (and their possessions), and that leaving the door of your flat/unit/room on the latch leaves you (and your possessions) at the mercy of any other tenants and anyone else who happens to be in the house (guests, repairmen, meter readers, etc.).
I don't believe for a moment that Joanna would have left the flat without her keys, especially when there was no one to let her back in should the door slam behind her by mistake.

I know a few people have said they would never put their keys in the bag when they get in, but I tend to do so. Principally because there is nowhere else really that I can leave them and be sure I'll find them quickly if I need to pop out and answer the door to the postman, or whatever.

 

[equationgirl]

Nausicaa - thank you for an excellent post. A great summary of the key unknowns.

My only comment is where you made the remark in point 8 about the postmortem showing that she had been dead at the body dump site for several days. Please could you let me have a link for that information? All I can find is a statement from the police saying the following:

'Det Ch Insp Phil Jones told a news conference the post-mortem results had shown she had been dead for "several days before being discovered".

"The investigation is now a murder investigation, " he said.

"The post mortem examination has taken longer than usual, due to the frozen condition of her body."'.

from
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-12084756

 

[Malaconotus]

My only comment is where you made the remark in point 8 about the postmortem showing that she had been dead at the body dump site for several days. Please could you let me have a link for that information?

The verbatim statement from the police was "As a result of the findings of the post mortem we believe that Joanna's body has been in the roadside verge at Longwood Lane, Failand, for several days before being discovered on Christmas morning" See my previous post on this subject for link to video fo statement being made... Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #4

 

[Rossetti]

If it's true, as reported by the Express, that saliva was found on JY's lips .... my immediate thought is that anything like that would soon disappear from the lips of a living person - surely?

Less important, the words “Where are you?” are what I might send to someone if I had just knocked on that person’s door and failed to raise an answer

I think it makes sense if she thought he might be in a pub or bar in the neighbourhood. They had been in contact via chat and email.

What possible reason could anyone have for taking away the body but leaving the personal effects ? What false impression did the murderer want to give or what truth did he want to conceal by so doing ? What idea or event or necessity could have made him so act.

Could simply have inadvertently let the door close, and with the keys inside couldn't get back in to retrieve anything. (That assumes it was someone who didn't have keys of their own of course.)

 

[laserdisc10]

Wondering now if JY had recently learned she was pregnant ?

If so, was GR aware ?

Had JY only revealed her suspicions to a close friend ?

 

[Nausicaa]

1. The Secret Clue.
It seems to me highly probable that the police have possessed a very important clue or piece of information, right from the night when Joanna was discovered, which they have chosen not to release.

My apologies. I meant to write : "...right from the night when Joanna's disappearance was discovered..." i.e. the night of 19-20 December. I hope the context made that clear as it is now too late to edit.

 

[liz b.]

I've never seen this raised : were Jo and GR ever known to use any " recreational " drugs ?

All JMO

 

[equationgirl]

The verbatim statement from the police was "As a result of the findings of the post mortem we believe that Joanna's body has been in the roadside verge at Longwood Lane, Failand, for several days before being discovered on Christmas morning" See my previous post on this subject for link to video fo statement being made... Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Found Deceased UK - Joanna Yeates, Clifton, Bristol, 17 December 2010 - #4

Thanks, appreciated I tend to concentrate on the non-video news articles so had missed this.

 

[LadyL]

I feel that the keys were originally on the table/ a bowl and 'someone' placed them in the bag...this is the reason that GR has another few hours to 'discover' that her keys were in the bag and buys him time not to alert her family that she could be missing. Afterall ...if the keys had been in sight when he entered he would know that something was wrong

Just out of curio - how many women here put their keys in their bag? I never have and every female friend i have is like me just popping the keys down on the nearest surface

I always put mine in my bag. I'm afraid to put them down anywhere else b/c I once locked myself out.

 

[equationgirl]

Wondering now if JY had recently learned she was pregnant ?

If so, was GR aware ?

Had JY only revealed her suspicions to a close friend ?

Nothing so far to confirm this from police reports, though, although they may be keeping it quiet for their own reasons.

On the other hand, if she was pregnant (and I'm not suggesting she was) paternity could easily be established.

 

[equationgirl]

I've never seen this raised : were Jo and GR ever known to use any " recreational " drugs ?

All JMO

If this were true (and again, not suggesting at all that it is) I suspect so of the less scrupulous members of the press would have been all over it in some drug-fuelled-orgy-tragic-death kind of headline.

 

[Phillb]

1. The person at a party across the street ( who had stepped out to have a smoke ) heard two screams at around 9pm. I had previously mentioned that I thought the front door was possibly open, and that's why this woman was able to hear the screams.

I also wouldn't put massive amounts of credence to these reported screams heard around 9.15 p.m either.
I believe another woman out (walking her dog?) came forward later to say she heard similar.

The party going girl said they were very short, and muffled noises. Certainly they weren't the blood curdling screams to disturb you enough to call the Police/get help/run to assistance there and then.

I used to walk to work around half three in the morning along a wooded road when i was a Postie.
I can tell you those barking foxes can certainly put the jeebies up you, it's easy to mistake it for a womans screams

Anyone ever heard a barking fox?
You can hear one here.
http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/thefoxden/fox_territory_call.wav

I admit I do find it to be the worst luck ever if your seen to be smiling at 8.40 (ish) p.m and in half hours time you will be dead at home. Your body then dumped three miles away before midnight. It's not impossible, but it does take some believing I.M.O.

I hope this new C.C.T.V gives the Police the break they want, but it is on the far side of Canynge Road along Clifton Down, and of course it depends on what night their looking at for the body disposal.

My thoughts are discount Christmas morning at their peril. I really do hope they haven't aleady missed big clues by sticking rigid to the 17th-19th Dec timeline and discounting others.